PT OT ties that were unnecessary

Thank you very much for this. This is what everyone needs to read. You have my support.

 

wasn't very fond of the C-3PO being built by Anakin

wasn't fond of Yoda interacting with Chewbacca

anything else didn't bother me

 

I still don't see it. The droids are left in charge with Antilles which confirms what Threepio said. That's not forced.

Yeah, but the films are also for people who will see the Saga for the first time as PT to OT.

 

Yes. The violent snapping back to light / daytime, and a victory celebration at that, is no more grating, to me, than the medal ceremony suddenly playing out after twenty minutes of pretty intense dogfight action at the end of ANH; which TPM is obviously rhyming itself up with.

You said it perfectly. The first and last scenes on Naboo in TPM are set in glorious daylight, but we already know that darkness is closing in. I also like the notion that the victory celebration "wipes out" the sadness of the funeral, if only for a while.

We get a series of neat transitions in time of day at the end of TPM: it's daytime when Palpatine and the Jedi arrive, early evening when Obi-Wan is knighted (with thick clouds, hanging heavy, thick with meaning), and night has fallen when we're taken to Qui-Gon's funeral. The return to day is kind of signaling the birth of a new age and all the madness ahead: the SAGA has just begun!

These last scenes of TPM are, in my opinion, wonderfully painterly and poetic. They're very fitting of this cycle of films being a chronicle of the fate of a single gifted character, and of all the other people, places, and events this character goes on to influence as the galaxy changes around him. Several cinematic "blinks" are executed in a short space of time, but that's fitting, in my view. Maybe I'm conceding that it is a *bit* more jarring than in ANH, but no more than it needs to be, given the story parameters involved, and the impressionistic impulses of the story's maker.

 

If anything, I find the parallel between TPM and ROTJ more apt. Mainly in that both featured a funeral pyre and then a celebration finale.

 

Oh, yes. TPM fuses many aspects of ANH and ROTJ together into a glorious new whole.

 

Well, a lot of the 1-4/2-5/3-6 parallels seem to be more expressive of Anakin - Luke mirrors and the galaxy going either way in each trilogy, where there is a kind of state of balance in TPM and ROTJ IMO (I like the heavy use of the colour green in these two particular films). There are less obvious character links between all the films really (such as Maul killing Obi-Wan's Master Qui-Gon then Vader "killing" Obi-Wan's apprentice Anakin).

My favourite link is probably the "death and fire" motif - cremations at each bookend of the saga (as Sinister stated) contrasting Anakin's immolation in the middle. Besides the fact that Anakin is of course coldly masked because of immolation and a broken bond to Obi-Wan ("You were the chosen one!"), and warmly unmasked after reuniting with Luke ("You were right!") then cremated, there are a fair few details surrounding these events that match. The betrayal of Mace vs the betrayal of The Emperor. Anakin turning Palpatine (catalyst for his fall) over to Mace vs Vader turning Luke (catalyst for redemption) over to the Emperor. The Imperial shuttle Sidious collects Anakin from Mustafar in (Hell) almost matching the ship Luke will leave the DS2 with Anakin's body after saving him (Heaven). Qui-Gon dying in Obi-Wan's arms after stating Anakin will bring balance vs Anakin dying in Luke's arms when he fulfills this prophecy. Anakin's selflessness in being used for a higher purpose (led by the force to destroy the TF ship) matching finally letting go at ROTJ's climax, etc.

 

Nice brief analysis btw. I definitely think the use of light at play in the prequels can go unappreciated. More evening scenes as ROTS progresses, transitioning to night at the "apocalypse" being the most obvious example that comes to mind.

 

Thanks. The whole daylight-to-nighttime transitioning thing with accompanying weather patterns really started in TESB with Cloud City, but wasn't seriously carried through multiple locales until the prequels. It didn't become a really big device connecting the destinies of all the characters, and even the Republic, until TPM, basically. So that's another thing to recommend about it. I like how the transitions are also manifest in microcosm at the end of each prequel movie:

TPM = daylight, crowd scene, outdoors, lots of people, bright glowy object hoisted to upper-centre of frame

AOTC = late afternoon, quiet retreat, few characters, secret ceremony, backs turned

ROTS = dusk, private farm dwelling, two characters only, backs turned, contemplating sunset / destiny

 

Really great stuff here, as well, HD!!

I don't know what I can add, other than what I said very recently. TPM basically has two climaxes: one in (or is) ROTS, the other in (or is) ROTJ.

Weirdly, the fire / cremation motif goes along nicely with that.

And in TPM, of course, Sidious is farthest from achieving his goals, while in ROTJ, he is the closest.

Threepio, too: from wobbly slave-boy science project to revered demigod.

Some sort of shuttle or personal transport is taken by a character with a connection to Qui-Gon after their reckoning with Anakin, but this is a link between AOTC, ROTS, and ROTJ, primarily: Dooku slices Anakin's arm off and then leaves after facing Yoda in his solar sailor, Obi-Wan clambers aboard Padme's ship after maiming Anakin and watching him burn on Mustafar, and Luke flies the shuttle out of the Death Star hangar with Anakin's remains after helping him renounce his bodily and spiritual slavery to the Dark Side of the Force. Luke breaks the pattern, then, by refusing to abandon Anakin, and literally gives him the same basic death rites as Qui-Gon received all those years before.

Cool connections between all the movies when you actually look for them.

 

Could you expand on the Cloud City observation? I do see it now that it is pointed out, it's evening when Luke is rescued from below the city.

Definitely, TPM can be said to "shrink the universe" but it really connects a lot of the saga's characters on invisible strands that to me broaden the scope of the films.

Did not notice that directly, the progression across the movies is clearly there. The contrast is particularly noticeable when you look at the TPM crowd vs the small scale moment with the Larses, yet the smaller moment holds far more significance to the saga.
You probably noticed there is also some mirroring in the daytime parade and Padme's funeral at night?

 

Yeah, you could see ROTS/ROTJ as inverse resolutions to TPM, each resolution can actually be watched isolated to each other and you have two totally different sagas.

You could argue that he is closer to them at the climax of ROTS, because there isn't yet a solid Rebellion, but I see what you are getting at.

Heh.

Cool link, I guess you can also note that Padme shoots at Dooku's ship while Dooku flees with some of Anakin's innocence, where in ROTS Obi-Wan and Padme leave Anakin behind, and he will not "join" them again until their son rekindles the flame.

 

There are several transitions used for Cloud City. For example, it's kinda late in the day when Han, Leia, Chewie, and Threepio arrive, going from sort of late afternoon when they're first approaching through the clouds of Bespin to evening when they touch down and exit the MF. It later appears to be the middle of the day when Lando escorts Han, Leia, and Chewie, without their realizing it, to a waiting Vader (and Boba Fett). The clouds in the Luke rescue could be characterized as an angry dusk.

This rather picturesque use of clouds and times of day is pretty exclusive to TESB, by my reckoning, in the OT, but Naboo and Coruscant -- and, arguably, Tatooine -- get given the same poetic treatment across the PT.

It expands by shrinking. A paradox.

And a beautiful one at that, in my opinion.

I like the way TPM goes about anthologizing the SW galaxy and gives it an authentic backstory.

After seeing TPM, you realize, instantly, that ANH doesn't count. TPM is charged with the feeling of a grand beginning.

Again, in my opinion.

I didn't notice the mirroring there, no. Now that you mention it, it seems obvious. Good catch.

Wow, yes! I'm very animated by that find all of a sudden. Poetically speaking, it's like history has led up to that moment.

Nice. ROTJ even makes explicit in dialogue the idea of different points-of-view having equal (or near-equal) meaning, depending on how much we "cling" to one sentiment or another.

Lucas has said that his approach to the movies has created something that is "extremely modern, almost interactive", with the moving around of different "blocks" yielding "different emotional states". I somehow get the picture of "THX-1138" in my head with those comments: both the editing of that movie and the early plot circumstance where THX goes to a store and "buys" a block, only to shortly thereafter dispose of it in his cell (block). With those comments, Lucas was attempting to justify his artistic choices, but the comments can also be read as giving licence to fan musings and projects that attempt to find connections as we are inclined to do. GL is tacitly boasting, perhaps, about having birthed a new kind of film art with Star Wars.

Though, that's kinda "out there" speculation on my part, I suppose.

True. He acts like he is closer in ROTJ, though, in my opinion.

I like that one a lot. It's so crafty of these films to present such amazing contrasts -- many that go unnoticed, but that sit right under our noses!

Great stuff!!! "Dooku flees with some of Anakin's innocence". Where'd you come up with that? That's excellent! Yes, both the mother and daughter shoot at fleeing ships, to no avail. A better method is needed. Only, hmmm... Padme's compassionate approach fails with Anakin in the next movie, but mainly because Obi-Wan capsizes it (by appearing at a critical moment and raising Anakin's ire). Yes -- every character seems to take a piece of Anakin in the PT, but it only requires one character, his son, to make him whole again.

 

Forgive the lateness of this response, it was actually like six in the morning here and I was just going to bed

Interesting. I wonder how long it takes from the Millenium Falcon arriving at Bespin to when it lands, I hadn't thought about this progression actually.
If anything, the mood created by the dusk when Luke is rescued definitely fits, I had only really noticed this in the prequels to be honest. The most obvious example of use of clouds for ROTS is outside the Temple when Anakin has his first confrontation with the Council on being Palpatine's representative. This of course building up to a thunderstorm at the "turn".

While I do recommend watching the prequels first, I find without ANH, TPM is a little lacking in effectively portraying the force to a first timer. But you could say when you get to ANH you are learning it through Luke's eyes, and where the Jedi grow and learn from their mistakes, Obi-Wan and Yoda's tutelage of Luke really improves on what the viewer already knows.

Glad you liked it. I can't expand on it that much, but the exuberance of the TPM scene (and Jar Jar's "yahoo!") seem to be the polar opposite of Jar Jar grieving and the general visual and mood tone of the funeral.

Yeah, that dialogue really enhances ROTS on repeat viewings, which in turn obviously makes ROTJ a different experience in itself. I love the symbiosis of the two trilogies, it kind of explains or justifies the Sith's victory in ROTS while making Luke seem all the wiser (like a prodigy I guess) at the end of ROTJ.

I haven't watched THX (laziness ) , but I follow. I do find the problems the PT can supposedly create in the OT can overshadow how clever some of the reworking of the themes/structure is, and what resonates before or after the PT was created. A simple example... ANH is now the feel-good "upper" that reminds us that there is always hope despite what we have seen in the prequels, ESB is more tragic and operatic and re-enforces the personal story of the GFFA, and ROTJ perhaps benefits the most from a six movie arc, bringing us full-circle and balancing things out in a way that makes the whole journey seem worthwhile.
Perhaps I am stating the obvious though.

Hah, yeah he certainly doesn't feel the need to be subtle at this stage. But I am sure the final conclusion of ROTS compared to ROTJ had him more satisfied at least

Not sure, something I thought of back in '05. I've mentioned this before, but it seems significant that on Mustafar Palpatine's shuttle lands on the same platform Obi-Wan, Padme, R2 and 3PO leave from moments before. Seems symbolic that Palpatine, the darkside, and Anakin's isolation from his humanity, really replace these links to his past life here.

 

The OT tie ins, or mirrored storylines were deliberate; it was meant to show Luke and Anakin are very much walking the same path, but chose different outcomes.

 

Well yes, that is really the first set of mirrors you notice. But there are others, such as the mirror within only Anakin's character of his turn to the dark and back to the light.

 

Great stuff, everyone! The foreshadowing, mirroring, and evolution between the six films is very meticulous. It is obvious that much thought went into crafting each of the films. While directing people on-set might not be his greatest strength, I don't think anyone can dispute that GL is a genius when it comes to cinematic scope and ability to tell a story simply by setting atmosphere, mood, and foreboding. Of course, these are things you likely won't catch on the first viewing (and some may not even realize they exist). But when you recognize them, you appreciate the films on a whole new level.

 

Because Chewie once helped Yoda escape order 66, Obi-Wan knows he can trust him and why Obi-Wan picked the MF to hire.

 

I thought many of the 'ties/mirroring' was unneeded. I particularly did not like how the deliberate similarities between the parents and children were handled.

 

It didn't bother me much.

 

Haven't read the whole thread yet, but wanted to post my thoughts.

I would go so far as to say the inclusion of 3PO and R2 at ALL was a mistake. They aren't very important to the overall story and seemed like they could have been replaced by different robots with new personalities. Sure, they had new droids in the PT (thinking of the battle droids and such), but I think one or two new droid MAIN characters would have been nice. I've said this before, and I always point to the assassin droid from KOTOR as a good reference for how they could make a new, interesting droid.

Yoda was problematic. Given that he was told to be Obi-Wan's trainer, I guess they were kinda forced to have Yoda, but I think he was used too much, did too many things that didn't make sense for his character, and overall just wasn't handled very well. He could have also had a better introduction in TPM instead of just being in the Jedi Council chamber, sitting in a chair, with no real emotion going on.

I actually didn't like that they put Boba Fett in there at all, and didn't like that they basically just re-used his suit w/ different colors.

Also, truth be told, the use of Darth for the villains was...well I dunno. It felt like they just wanted to have reference to Vader without it actually being him. Like if you took Grevious, Dooku, and Maul...then mashed them together, you would have Vader. And maybe that was the point? But it just seemed forced to tall them Darth too. And since the Darth name was for all Siths, they made Palpatine Darth Sidious which never existed in the original trilogy, so it created a little bit of a continuity issue too.

While I think Tatooine was a bit unnecessary as well (they could have made Anakin come from anywhere, really), it was kind of cool to see more of it. I'm torn on it, but feel perhaps it would have been better to see a new planet.

 

LOL, yes. I'm late myself. Started to think we were beginning to swamp this thread.

But let's throw caution to the wind. Caution is for fools!

The thunderstorm when Anakin is brought back to Coruscant in the medical capsule, you mean?

"Storm's coming, Ani. Better get home quick."

True. What I was talking about was more the look, feel, tone, and mood of TPM. Less its "fuctional" quality.

TPM is a beginning in the sense that -- to me -- it has the real feel of a backstory set in some brighter, chivalrous past.

It satisfyingly conveys a cultured, more innocent (albeit still rather corrupt) epoch, with a regal aspect, before the ossified, utilitarian age to come: "before the dark times, before the Empire."

That's what I like about it.

Yes. And of the main characters from TPM -- if we imagine them to be Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, Amidala, Anakin, and Jar Jar -- only Jar Jar is still present and/or "alive" in the funeral scene.

And the point-of-view dialogue has its origin in TPM:

"It's not disrespect, Master. It's the the truth."
"From your point of view."

I'm preaching to the choir, but it goes right along with there being a certain synchronicity between TPM and ROTJ, as well as ROTS, of course:

"Good is a point of view, Anakin."

I agree with all of your thoughts there. What I will add is that, maybe -- again, from a certain POV -- ROTS and ANH are actually the most serial-like of the movies, but in different ways (one is a tragedy, the other, in your wording, is a "feel-good upper"), with AOTC and TESB following as the most dream-like and tonally-weird, leaving TPM and ROTJ as more like classic adventure-like, seige-based (Naboo/Endor) fantasy films. Sort of like a unifying structure based on different "rings" (concentric circles).

Indeed. He pulls off such a big caper in ROTS that he has, understandably, I think, grown a little lazy and accustomed to things going his way in ROTJ. Sounds odd to say, but the Emperor is almost a little humble in ROTS, despite how much he's clearly enjoying himself.

It's the same platform? Do you know, I never noticed that. One connection I did recently pick up on, though, is that the image of the shadow of the Emperor's shuttle passing over the sandbank is like a darker version of the TF troop carriers casting a shadow over the forest on Naboo at the start of TPM. Another TPM-ROTS "Halloween" link for you.

 

Actually, I was referring to the thunder heard in the background during the confrontation between Mace, Palpatine and Anakin in Palpatine's office. Always loved this detail. With the lightning to match of course being generated by Sidious' hands, and Anakin shielding his eyes as if what was unfolding is too intense for him to watch. Many people complain about this scene, perhaps because of the cheesiness of Palpatine's weak act, but generally I feel the timing of the dialogue and what is actually happening perfectly presents Anakin's desperation here, and the speed at which things spiral out of control for him. It's pretty intense, the music as Mace's saber goes out the window, the perhaps subtle detail of Anakin unigniting his saber in surprise, Sidious' victory grin as Anakin does exactly as he is supposed to, I just enjoy the moment.

Agreed, and despite the obvious improvement in technology between trilogies in release order, for me it feels like TPM happened a long time ago, as intended. You summed up here a lot of what I like about the vibe of the film, I personally rank it at least on the level of ANH and ROTJ in terms of the engrossing world it creates for the viewer. It really portrays what is lost beautifully, while you can still sense it is the same world through other episodes.
ESB still has it beat IMO though, it is the only of the six where I truly feel like I am watching real people in a real environment. The others work in a more artistic or mythical way I guess, but ESB takes me away, basically from start to end. Hard to pinpoint exactly why, I mean they all have their moments that transcend what you would experience in the average movie, but ESB's characters are what I picture most when thinking of what makes Star Wars for me. ROTS can be more intense, and I love that about it, but it is less consistent. When looking at the saga more collectively however, it is hard to choose one movie, the interplay is what makes it great. ROTS, while arguably the most standalone of the prequels, also connects to and depends on the other five more than any other entry in the saga. It really blew my mind watching TPM after ROTS was released (although maybe I was just seeing what prequel defenders already saw) and despite some minor plotholes when connected to the OT I find it a shame that more people don't see how well the six movies complement each other.

True.

Yeah, something I'm sure you have also noticed about the films is Palpatine as the "inverse" Master for ROTS. You have Qui-Gon taking Anakin away from his life as a slave and setting Anakin on the Jedi path, where Sidious will seduce Anakin with false promises of liberating himself joining the Sith, which of course enslaves him further, then things come full circle when Obi-Wan releases Luke from his responsibilites as a farmer and starts him on his father's unfinished path. A lot of cool dialogue links with it too, such as Qui-Gon teaching Anakin about selfess symbiosis with midichlorians and Palpatine teaching Anakin how to selfishly manipulate them, Obi-Wan's "You must do what you think is right, of course" vs Palpatine's response to Anakin planning to turn him over to the Jedi Council "Of course, you should...", Sidious claiming Anakin is "fulfilling (his) destiny" by joining him vs Obi-Wan claiming Luke's "destiny lies along a different path from (his)", etc.

Nice. Previous posts of yours have helped me appreciate the dream-like state of AOTC far better than I could have.
I have thought about that "ring" like structure a little myself, ROTS/ANH certainly invert and re-enforce each other for sure. The archetype of a bad droid (Grievous) using an escape pod vs the archetypes of good droids (R2 and 3PO) using one in the next film. The main space battle at the start of the film vs the main space batttle at the end. Solar eclipse vs Binary sunset. There are a lot of them really.

Heh, know what you mean.

Interesting. An obvious thing I appreciate about that ROTS moment is how oppressive it seems, the shadow representing where Anakin is headed - to servitude to Sidious - for the rest of his life, and while he may be relieved someone actually cares enough to rescue him by this stage, I wonder if he realises how much it is Sidious' fault. A major part of the character is his blindness to this of course, blaming the Jedi, and this shroud remains until ROTJ.

 

Oh!! I LOOOOOOVE that entire scene!!!!

It's brilliantly intense, played to the hilt, yet full of subtlety and quietly-astonishing stuff.

There is, most definitely, a notable thunder effect heard when and after Sidious starts the lightning and hurls Mace out of the window. Always dug it.

I do like Anakin shielding his eyes and deactivating his saber. The film is still portraying him as something of an innocent here. And it is a great shame for the character, really: what he sets into motion.

Anakin is portrayed as too young for half the things that are foist on him. In the Mace-Sidious encounter, he is significantly younger than the two men tussling at the window, and I think that communicates something about his life journey -- particularly when he turns away from the lightning.

I know, right? That's so cool about TPM. How classical it is. Like the Gungan cities. And the yellow tanks. We don't see those design elements again. Palpatine's apartment, on the other hand, also disappears, but the scarlet-red colour scheme, architecturally speaking, resurfaces much later in that corridor on Cloud City, when Lando is forced to endure Han's torture screams and then confers with Vader. I like that link. But yeah, "A long time ago..." TPM really satisfies that credo.

Yes. The contiguous aspect of these films, given their marked tonal differences, is truly impressive, in my opinion. But then, like anything, the very idea that they are contiguous is a subjective impression, of course.

Fair enough. I think TESB is, in some senses, the most convincingly shot. The use of what I would term "pristine white light" is absolutely gorgeous in the film -- the realistic casts of pure outdoor light (even when it's artificial lighting), like in the cockpit shots of the Hoth sequence, really add a unique visual appeal. It's a real looker of a film. And it does add immersion. The sound design is awesome, too, especially on Cloud City in the freezing chamber.

Oh, yes. The movies join forces with each other in some pretty enlivening and interesting ways. I think you have to go all the way through the saga -- I-VI -- to break the shackles of the prequels. What I mean is, even with all the differences between TPM and ROTS on a basic aesthetic level, there are obviously all manner of similarities, too. They belong within the same trilogy. And what TPM lays out, brilliantly, continues on into the OT, though it doesn't fully resonate until ROTJ, really. TPM and ROTS do seem to be singing from the same hymn sheet a lot of the time; albeit in vastly different registers. I've enjoyed all the links you've presented between the two.

If this means anything, Lucas wanted the feel of "Death In Venice" in Padme's funeral scene.

Oh, yeah. It's mentorship in different shades: as if wisdom is a pure white light being split through a prism. A cubist portrayal of guidance and self-realization.

Thanks. The films even seem to be crossing over at the end with the Tantive (or "Sundered Heart" as it now is) and Sith's reprise of the binary sunset.

Good reading. I remember, years ago, saying during the CBC discussions, that it's like the shadow passing over is anointing Anakin into the new Sith Order. "A powerful Sith you will become" kind of implies he wasn't yet captured by Palpatine (in the office); his soul was still his own. But yes, once ruined on Mustafar, he must then live under the shadow of Sidious for the remainder of his days. He has passed into the underworld and ceased to be Anakin Skywalker. It also makes more sense of the Hayden-ghost insert at the end of ROTJ. For all his flaws, Anakin still had some degree of autonomy, until he basically surrendered himself to his dark fate. Only at the very end -- when roused to defiance one final time ("NOOOOOO!") -- is he finally liberated from that fate.