JCC OZK's Foreskin Restoration Progress Thread

Discussion in 'Community' started by Whitey, Oct 2, 2012.

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  1. Point Given Mod of Literature and Community

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  2. A Chorus of Disapproval New Films Riot Deterrent

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    I particularly like the response of: Clearly your parents weren't good parents if they raised a son so spoiled, sheltered, and self-centered. Take a look at the world. If that's your worst problem and its making you consider suicide then I don't know that the rest of us need you. You sound like human cancer.

    Very uplifting. :p
    Last edited by MyKe1138, Oct 8, 2012
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  3. Obi-Zahn Kenobi Chosen One

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    I don't know whether or not any other posters are in denial and experiencing cognitive dissonance, but I really think that both you and MyKe1138 are.

    Otherwise neither of you would be so obsessive with this thread, and you would have responded to the things I'd said about the harm from circumcision directly rather than avoiding it and trying to discuss other things that aren't directly related to circumcision

    In your case, it's things such as your questioning about how this may be related to other familial problems, your nervousness about my becoming a physician, your continual accusations to me about calling parents evil - in the other thread, I remember you saying, "I just don't want anyone saying that I abuse my son!"

    In MyKe's case, he's cited that his wife is okay with his penis, he continually makes light of the issue by comparing circumcision to scalping, calling the foreskin a gas cap, claiming that I'm seeking attention.

    Neither one of you wants to actually discuss the issue, and I think it's because it makes you uncomfortable because part of you definitely agrees with me. After I made an impassioned post asking you about which parts of you genitals you think aren't valuable and wouldn't mind having cut off, I noticed a definite softening of you towards me and my restoration, and I really appreciated it.

    I think you love your son and would never do anything to hurt him. But you made a mistake. And that's okay. None of us are perfect. I think you did something that is child abuse, but not because you are an abuser. You did it because you were genuinely trying to make sure your son got the best medical care. And that's a good thing. It's a great thing, actually. It means you care about him very much. I don't mean at all to question that.

    But you can be a good parent and still have made the mistaking of cutting your son's genitals. It happens all the time.

    No, doesn't happen to be me.

    That's what I always tell suicidal people! Such a good idea!
    Last edited by Obi-Zahn Kenobi, Oct 8, 2012
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  4. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    Wow, she really understands circumcised men.

    [IMG]
  5. A Chorus of Disapproval New Films Riot Deterrent

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    In what will be my sole sincere post in this otherwise circus of a topic...

    I do happen to take your personal discontent on this matter seriously. If not for the precise matter at hand - at least for your personal frustration. I honestly have no issue with having been circumcised. I call it a gas-cap because the thought of having a urine drenched flap in the way of my relieving of self is far outweighing any disturbance I could possibly have over being subject to a common medical procedure which has caused me no hindrances and does nothing to villify parents in my mind. My prior comment about having our umbilical cords cut without our consent wasn't complete nonsense. I miss my foreskin about as much as I regret no longer feeding off of my mother via a disgusting link of tubing. I sorta, semi sympathize with your perception regarding only yourself in this, but I honestly wouldn't entertain the idea of restoration even if my entire appendage was at risk. I like a straight shot. and less to clean. I don't even like putting my contacts in. The thought of lifting a flap down there is downright perturbing.


    EDIT: As far as that absurd provocation I quoted above, I certainly don't endorse pushing a man on a ledge. Whoever authored that response got my attention and not my co-sign. The bits about self-centeredness in outlook, however, I agree with completely.
    Last edited by MyKe1138, Oct 8, 2012
  6. Violent Violet Menace Force Ghost

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    Over here, where no one is circumcised, they sell special soap for the glans. Apparently, you need a milder, pH neutral soap, for the delicate skin there. I agree with your ethical opposition to the continued practice of circumcision, but speaking for myself personally, having no recollection of what it was like before I was circumcised, I'm happy that I don't need a special penis soap. [face_plain]
  7. Obi-Zahn Kenobi Chosen One

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    You don't need a special penis soap anymore than you need a special vagina or eyelid soap. Don't wash mucous membranes with soap. If you feel the need to do anything, water is fine.
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  8. A Chorus of Disapproval New Films Riot Deterrent

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    I have dual citizenship and am aware of the special penile soap. Count me amongst the number who are glad to not require special penis soap.
  9. Guinastasia Force Ghost

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    Birth control =! abortion. You do know that birth control pills are often prescribed for NON-birth control reasons? And you'd seriously refuse a medical emergency like an eptopic pregnancy? Despite the fact that the pregnancy has absolutey a 100% of ending in a miscarriage? (And which is almost always fatal?)

    No offense, but I really feel uneasy with the idea of you practicing medicine.
  10. A Chorus of Disapproval New Films Riot Deterrent

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    I am in agreement with the Penguins fan. If only because of the emotional fragility that seems to be at the center of all of this.

    I am also emotionally compromised. But, only because I am in agreement with a Penguins fan. We need to meet in Harrisburgh or Mechanicsburgh and hug this out.
  11. Obi-Zahn Kenobi Chosen One

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    Haven't we had this conversation before where I said that would prescribe a combined progestin/estrogen pill or progestin only pill to treat symptoms of endometriosis, amenorrhea, and other conditions for which there is a medical indication?

    I said that these procedures and usages of drugs (contraception, sterilization, genitoplasty, euthanasia, and abortion) are elective in 99.9% of cases and the one case I was thinking of that has medical indication was a therapeutic abortion. I would perform a laparotomy for a ruptured fallopian tube due to ectopic pregnancy, because there is a medical indication to remove the affected tube.

    Anywhere from 25 to 60% of ectopic pregnancies are resolved by spontaneous abortion. It may in fact be a minority of cases that require surgical or medical intervention. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3336552?dopt=Abstract

    Ectopic pregnancies (if they are not tubal) very rarely, but occasionally, result in a viable child. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ectopic_pregnancy#Cases_with_live_birth Wiki has the relevant citations.

    I also do not believe that it is moral to kill an innocent so that someone else may life. An aggressor or maleficent, yes, but not an innocent. The death of the fetus in a laparotomy is a side effect to the necessary treatment to save the mother's life, and thus it is moral. But use of methotrexate to kill a fetus who is ectopically implanted is immoral, and I would never do such a thing.

    To summarize:

    We've already talked about me prescribing what are commonly called "birth control pills" for medical indications.
    You're incorrect that ectopic pregnancy has 100% chance of ending in miscarriage.
    You're incorrect that ectopic pregnancy is nearly always fatal if untreated.
    I would perform an emergency laparotomy.

    One day we will have the medical technology to remove ectopic pregnancies an ensure that they can grow to viability without their loss of life. Until then, I don't know what to say to you. I refuse to kill an innocent person so that another person may live.
    Last edited by Obi-Zahn Kenobi, Oct 8, 2012
  12. Guinastasia Force Ghost

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    A spontaneous abortion can be fatal. But that's another thread. :rolleyes:

    How about this: you have a guy who comes in, he's said that for a few years he's had some urinary problems, various infections, phimosis, you name it, and his PCP reccomended circumcision. He's pretty much said, "I'm gonna go for it, I have no problems with it, blah blah blah." He very much wants to do this procedure, he's done all the research, and he's very much in favor of it. What would your answer be?
    Last edited by Guinastasia, Oct 8, 2012
  13. Obi-Zahn Kenobi Chosen One

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    Let me rephrase: 25 to 60% of ectopic pregnancies RESOLVE in spontaneous abortion - meaning that there are not significant adverse effects to the mother.

    Persistant balantitis, UTI's, and phimosis that does not respond to more conservative treatment indicate prepucectomy. I would have no qualms performing it as long as he consented. I would not perform a prepucectomy on a consenting patient with no medical indication.

    However, I'd want him to pursue more conservative treatment first.

    What I find abhorrent about the way circumcision is practiced in America is that it is almost always done without medical indication and almost always on minors who cannot consent to it (and in fact, do the absolute best they can to indicate to us that they do not want it to happen to them).
    Last edited by Obi-Zahn Kenobi, Oct 8, 2012
  14. harpua Chosen One

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    I think this is a conversation you need to have with your own parents... not with me.

    We've already done this thread... it was locked (after you got your ass handed to you by Quix).

    We can revisit this compelling argument you made...


  15. Aytee-Aytee Force Ghost

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    I actually agree with the angry respondent. Whatever opinion you have about circumcision, you don't BLOODY TELL YOUR PARENTS YOU HATE THEM, NEVER SPEAK TO THEM AGAIN, AND THEN GO ON AN INTERNET RANT CALLING THEM 'HUMAN GARBAGE'.

    Jesus Christ....the majority of males born between 1959 and 1999 are circumcised. WHAT MAKES YOU SO GODDAMN SPECIAL?
  16. Ramza JC Head Admin and RPF Manager

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    Nothing; they're probably trolling, because it's reddit. :p
    Last edited by Ramza, Oct 8, 2012
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  17. Obi-Zahn Kenobi Chosen One

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    Quix failed to show that circumcision was not a violation of children's rights. Rather, he argued:

    Simply because a foreskin is natural does not mean it is a good thing to have.
    The evidence that it is harmful is ambiguous.
    Parents have the right to surgically alter their children at whim.

    He also refused to discuss any comparable or lesser surgical alterations, although he did in effect, concede, that under his moral system, parents have the right to put obscene tattoos on their children's bodies, revealing how ridiculous his ethics are (which I find mind-blowing considering that he actually works in medical ethics). The fact is, that intentionally insane example which Quix, in effect, conceded his ethical system allowed, revealed how ridiculous the ethics of those who support the legality of routine infant circumcision. His claim about rights claims being unjustified is just insane. No parent has the right to submit their non-consenting infant child to cosmetic surgery to deform a healthy, normal, and useful part of the body that everyone has.

    As for the fact that he is an ethicist, well, an appeal to authority is technically a fallacy (one which he made many, many times in that thread), practically authorities are important. And there are many ethical authorities who believe that circumcision is a gross violation of children's rights. http://www.circumstitions.com/Canary.html There, an ethicist of higher rank and prestige than Quix who is opposed to the practice.

    The fact is, cutting off the majority of the erogenous tissue of the penis (which I showed in the thread with scientific literature) is insane, and of course it's going to diminish the sexual experience. You believe that Quix won, because, as you repeatedly said throughout the thread, you don't want anyone claiming that you abused your son. His claim about the naturalistic fallacy does not quite hold true, because we treat every single other part of the phenotypically most common form of the human body as normal and worthy of protection. Branding, scarring, cutting, or doing anything to any other part of your son's body is illegal (except for minor piercings), and doing anything at all to any possible daughters is illegal (again, except minor piercings). It is reasonable to presuppose that since every single male with very few exceptions is born with one that it has a logical and reasonable purpose, just as it's reasonable to say, "This person is an expert, therefore I will go with their opinion," even though an appeal to authority is inherently fallacious in philosophical reasoning. One is not correct simply because one is an expert, yet practical experience teaches us that appeal to authority arguments are actually very useful. Likewise, the naturalistic appeal is valid in this case.

    His claim about ambiguous evidence applies equally to female genital cutting, as do his objections concerning rights claims, and the naturalistic fallacy. Yet I doubt he would support FGC being legal in the United States.

    You're more focused on exonerating yourself of having permanently damaged your sons genitals without his consent than whether or not it's actually a good idea or even ethical for you to have done so. It's why you refuse to address the issue and instead continue to try to focus your argumentation as to my qualities as a person. It also explains why the things that cause you the most ire are things that imply that circumcision is abusive, because if it is, it means that you will have to admit to yourself that you did something abusive to your son.

    Agreed. I'm definitely vehemently against circumcision, but some guys I've seen online demonize their parents over it and it's definitely not called for.
    Last edited by Obi-Zahn Kenobi, Oct 8, 2012
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  18. Guinastasia Force Ghost

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    That reminds me, since that thread was closed before you got a chance to answer my question Paul, just out of curiosity, were you raised Catholic, or did you convert?
  19. Lord Vivec Chosen One

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    Paul is the convertiest convert I know.
  20. Obi-Zahn Kenobi Chosen One

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    Converted December, 2009.
  21. harpua Chosen One

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    You went on a rampage, saying that parents who choose to circumcise are guilty of child abuse... several people pointed that out to you.

    What I said in that thread, and still believe, is that there should not be a law banning circumcision, much like I believe that there should be no law banning abortion or birth control--I believe that it should be up to the parent to choose. If you are against circumcision, it is your right to choose not to circumcise. Like I said last night, I ended up having a talk with my son about circumcision (because he woke up and saw me reading this ****ing thread... ugh). He is not angry about it... at all. What you quoted above was my reaction to you saying things like:

    If you recall, it was **** like that that got the thread locked... so will you kindly stop with the ridiculous child abuse accusations?

    Converted... born again, etc etc
  22. RC-1991 Force Ghost

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    [IMG]
  23. Obi-Zahn Kenobi Chosen One

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    People asked if it was child abuse. So I said the truth. It is.

    It is child abuse. I've never said that it isn't child abuse. It's not like I'm being self-contradictory here. And I'm not on a rampage. I avoid calling it child abuse because I know it offends because to suggest that they abused their child. But people asked. So I said what it is.

    Like all other forms of child abuse, it should be illegal. Saying that it's a personal choice like contraception is ridiculous - contraception only affects the person taking it and indirectly their sexual partners. It's like saying that female genital mutilation is up to the parent to choose. It directly affects someone other than the parent in a very direct, painful, and permanent way.

    Your son isn't angry, and the mutilated women in the video I posted earlier aren't angry either. They're happy their mothers had them circumcised. Because that's what they've been brought up with.

    One day, society will be more civilized, and we will abhor that we ever did this to our sons.
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  24. Guinastasia Force Ghost

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    Ah. Yeah, no offense to you, but somehow, I could tell. If only because the converts are always more, I don't know, "zealous" than those of us raised from birth? (Well, I'm a lapsed Catholic, but you know what I mean. My family's pretty liberal.)
  25. Obi-Zahn Kenobi Chosen One

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    Very true, and no offense taken.

    The most zealous Catholics I know tend to be converts (or reverts - like they left and came back again), although I know many just as zealous as me who are cradle Catholics.

    I am "liberal" on some issues. I don't disagree with the Church on anything related to faith or doctrine, but in terms of politics I favor universal healthcare, prison reform (no tent cities), immigration reform that favors illegal immigrants, unions, and things like that. The reasons that most Catholics were once Democrats and a majority still remain Democrats.
    Last edited by Obi-Zahn Kenobi, Oct 8, 2012
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