Saga Padme and the Twins

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by themetresgained, Mar 6, 2013.

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  1. themetresgained Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 23, 2013
    star 4
    (sorry if this isn't the right place to post this, feel free to move it to another forum if necessary)

    So in RotS we see Padme giving birth to the twins, but she spends more time on Luke, touching/holding him, and basically only bothers to give Leia a name and that's it.

    How can we reconcile that with RotJ, in which Luke says "I have no memory of my mother. I never knew her" when Leia says "Just images, really. Thoughts. Feelings. She was very beautiful. Kind, but... Sad." Surely if anything, Luke should have a better memory of their mother - and there is no real reason why Leia should know things like that about her mother.

    Any ideas?

    Here's one of mine:
    • Padme, as a friend of Bail's, had more of an emotional 'presence' in the Organa household - it makes sense that Bail adopted Leia partially out of affection for his friend. This, combined with Leia's Force-sensitivity, and tendency of little girls to look up to their mothers, might explain why Leia seems to know a little more about her mother than would otherwise makes sense.
    • The reverse is true of Luke - he grew up with his paternal uncles and was probably a bit less interested in his mother's identity/history than he was his father's.
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  2. Count Yubnub Force Ghost

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    Oct 1, 2012
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    From ESB:

    YODA: Through the Force, things you will see. Other places. The future...the past. Old friends long gone.

    There's your answer.
    Last edited by Count Yubnub, Mar 6, 2013
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  3. themetresgained Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 23, 2013
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    Well I pretty much had that base covered, but what I wonder is why Luke remembers *nothing* despite arguably having had time to form some sort of Force bond with Padme, where Leia remembers a bit despite not having had that chance. The only explanation I can think of is that each used the Force to see what they wanted to see.
  4. Jango_Fett21 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2002
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    I've honestly never understood why this is such an issue.

    Leia grew up in an environment where the chances of her having heard Padme's name and the basics of her life and career would be very high, and it doesn't take a huge leap of imagination to presume that, if she were anything like most children, she would've been curious and bright enough to do some research on Padme, especially if she'd asked the Organas for information and they'd deflected her questions. It also doesn't take a huge leap of imagination to presume that she could have seen dream-images of Padme, felt her sadness and pain, and recognized their familial connection through her latent Force abilities, especially if her childhood curiosity had already been piqued.

    Luke, conversely, would have had absolutely no reason to have even heard his mother's name or story, and therefore no real reason to wonder about her.
    Last edited by Jango_Fett21, Mar 7, 2013
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  5. _Catherine_ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2007
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    It's a plot hole. Mod edit: banned language
    Last edited by Darth_Nub, Mar 7, 2013
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  6. Jango_Fett21 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
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    ^ Really? Then how come I just did exactly that?

    Not every little thing has to be explicitly explained, and not everything that goes unexplained is automatically a plot-hole.
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  7. _Catherine_ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2007
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    I said satisfactory way, not just making up stuff that's not suggested in the film. This isn't an unexplained plot point like the Sifo-Dyas mystery, it's a blatant contradiction between two sources.

    Possible but irrelevant because the question was "Do you remember your mother?" not "Did you ever Google your mother?"

    Leia says that she remembers her mother, not that she remembers dreaming about her mother. Nothing in the movie implies that she's wrong and nothing in the contradictory source (RotS) tries to explain the discrepancy; to suggest that Leia doesn't know what she's talking about is deliberately reading against the text.

    So a boy who grows up without a mother would never have a reason to wonder about his mother? What?
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  8. Count Yubnub Force Ghost

    Member Since:
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    Well, yeah. I think the intent was to show that Luke was closer to his father, Leia was closer to her mother.
  9. Admiral Volshe Chosen One

    Member Since:
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    I believe that with Leia's Force-sensitivity, even seeing brief images of Padmé throughout her life would have affected her memories and linked them to her first memory. I feel like her mind would also be aided by the Force which would have built a perception of Padmé.
    Sort of a subliminal exposure, perhaps.

    In that case, Luke wouldn't ever remember her more than those very vague memories of the moments after he was born.
    I don't believe he would have ever seen any sort of media involving Padmé, so it's very possible he could forget.

    Leia would be much more frequently exposed to her as I see it (even unknowingly) which makes it easier for her to remember.
    Last edited by Admiral Volshe, Mar 7, 2013
  10. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
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    I wish I could like this a thousand times
    Last edited by Darth_Nub, Mar 7, 2013
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  11. themetresgained Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 23, 2013
    star 4
    Sloppy writing, perhaps, but it doesn't require a whole lot of creative thinking to explain so why label something a plot hole when it doesn't need to be?
  12. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
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    I would say that it's a pretty glaring plot hole. Huge, even.
  13. Count Yubnub Force Ghost

    Member Since:
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    Why is it a plot hole when it's explained in the movies?
  14. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
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    It's not explained in the movies at all. In ROTJ Leia has clear memories of her mother, in Sith, she is a new born infant at the time of her mothers death. The only way to reconcile these two very disparate scenes, is to invent insane rationalizations about "force memories" or other types of hogwash, when Jedi makes it clear that her mother was with her during her early childhood.

    It's a hole you could drive a truck through. Fans are forgiving of plotholes, and that's for each individual to decide fi they want to forgive it or not. But to claim it's not a plot hole, nah. Can't buy that for a second.

    Nothing in Jedi comes close to suggesting we should be doing anything other than taking Leia at her word.
  15. Count Yubnub Force Ghost

    Member Since:
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    From ESB:

    YODA: Through the Force, things you will see. Other places. The future...the past. Old friends long gone.

    There's your answer.


    ROTJ does no such thing.
  16. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    No, that's your answer.

    Here's mine:

    Luke asks her about her memories of her mother, and she gives her answer. It's that simple. No force. No visions. Her memories of her sad mother. You have to invent these explanations, they aren't in the film. Hence, plothole. Huge one.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Mar 7, 2013
  17. themetresgained Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 23, 2013
    star 4
    It implies it, but you know, whatever, it's nothing that can't be explained away by a bit of creative thinking.

    One thing they could have done in RotS, though, is to make Leia born first and have her be held and touched by Padme. It would have made it all a little more believable and it would be an absolutely miniscule change.
  18. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
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    You say it yourself, it needs to be explained away. It wouldn't need an invented explanation if it wasn't a plot hole
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Mar 7, 2013
  19. Jango_Fett21 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2002
    star 3
    ^ Just because you don't agree with an idea doesn't mean its 'hogwash'.

    Also, as I already said, it's not a plothole just because it's not explained.
  20. Count Yubnub Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2012
    star 4

    LUKE
    Leia... do you remember your mother? Your real mother?

    LEIA
    Just a little bit. She died when I was very young.

    LUKE
    What do you remember?

    LEIA
    Just...images, really. Feelings.

    LUKE
    Tell me.

    LEIA
    (a little surprised at his insistence) She was very beautiful. Kind, but...sad. (looks up) Why are you asking me all this?



    Simple, really. No need to invent anything.
  21. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
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    She is remembering her mother, infants cannot do that. To have those kinds of memories means her mother must have been with her at least through a toddler stage. Or are you suggesting infants remember.


    These two movies do not match up.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Mar 7, 2013
  22. Count Yubnub Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2012
    star 4
    Let's try this again:

    From ESB:

    YODA: Through the Force, things you will see. Other places. The future...the past. Old friends long gone.

    There's your answer.
  23. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    No, it's your answer. The same as it was the first time. She answers Luke's question about her memories of her mother. She isn't talking about the force at all. There is no reasonable basis for that. She is answering Luke honestly about her memory. Not visions, memory.

    It's a huge plot hole. Gargantuan.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Mar 7, 2013
  24. Jango_Fett21 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2002
    star 3
    Only in your mind.
  25. _Catherine_ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2007
    star 4
    Sorry, I didn't realize it was disallowed in that context. Couldn't you have just edited out the offensive word instead of the whole sentence, though? Now it just looks like I started cursing people out for no reason. :p
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