Saga Padme and the Twins

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by themetresgained, Mar 6, 2013.

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  1. Placeholder Force Ghost

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    It's the very definition of a plot hole, not only because it's not explained but because we are given two very disparate versions of her childhood. One that involves her mother being with her until at least an age that someone can form concrete memory, and one that involves her mother dying on the day she is born. Making what she says to Luke impossible, since she is clearly answering his question about her MEMORIES OF HER MOTHER, not relating a vision. There is nothing in that conversation that indicates anything other than her face value answer that these are her memories of her mother,

    Huge, gaping, plot hole.
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  2. Placeholder Force Ghost

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    My mind, and the textbook definition of a plot hole.
  3. Jango_Fett21 Force Ghost

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    ^ There is no actual discrepancy between what happens in RotS and what Leia says in RotJ. You just think there is. Hence my paraphrasing of Obi-Wan Kenobi.
    Last edited by Jango_Fett21, Mar 7, 2013
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  4. Count Yubnub Force Ghost

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    And, given that you seem to infer that I'm appealing to some kind of early childhood episodic memory encoding, that answer continues to go straight over your head. Unless, of course, you can explain to me how that answer would lead you to assume early childhood episodic memory encoding?



    How would Leia know this?


    Yoda isn't being reasonable about the Force? OK, Skippy.




    You know this? How? Are you George Lucas? How would Leia know the difference?
  5. Placeholder Force Ghost

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    These aren't really valid questions, since at the time Return of the Jedi came out there would have been nothing wrong with her statement. She was with her mother as a child.

    Yoda is telling the truth about the nature of the force, but Leia is talking about her memories in response to Luke's question, this isn't about Yoda at all. The only connection to Yoda or the force in general in that conversation is one guys like you have to invent to explain this away. There is no basis in their conversation for it at all.

    Why would she lie?

    It's a huge plot hole, the fact that it requires this much work from you to even begin to explain Leia's statement on Endor only makes my point for me.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Mar 7, 2013
  6. Placeholder Force Ghost

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    Of course there is, an infant minutes old can't form memories.
  7. Count Yubnub Force Ghost

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    Of course they are valid questions. You'll still have to argue how Leia would know the difference. After all, you're the one who's making the claim it's a plothole, so the onus lies with you to explain why that is.

    BTW, you still need to explain to me how one can go from Yoda's quote to early childhood episodic memory encoding.


    "Just images, really, feelings," are Leia's words. The explanation for that is all in Yoda's quote; I don't have to invent anything.


    Huh? When is she lying?


    Something that's obvious because its explained in the movies requires no effort on my part at all. I merely quoted Yoda and Leia; no more effort or information is required.

    A plot hole, per wikipedia, is "is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot, or constitutes a blatant omission of relevant information regarding the plot. These include such things as unlikely behaviour or actions of characters, illogical or impossible events, events happening for no apparent reason, or statements/events that contradict earlier events in the storyline.
    While many stories have unanswered questions, unlikely events or chance occurrences, a plot hole is one that is essential to the story's outcome."

    Star Wars contains plot holes--for instance, it's never explained how Darth Vader knows that Luke is his son, and that is nevertheless essential to the plot--but this isn't one of them, because the explanation is in the films. It's a quote by Yoda from ESB.
    Last edited by Count Yubnub, Mar 7, 2013
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  8. Placeholder Force Ghost

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    All you did was show that she has memories of her mother, that is the only thing you can get from her answers. You are inventing an answer she did not give. She says nothing about the force, or a vision. She says nothing that links her answer to Yoda at all. You have to invent that answer to make your position work. It's that simple. You're substituting her answer about her memories, for yours about the force. It's bait and switch. And since any explanatino requires that style of argument, it is a plot hole.

    It's not the same as Vader and Luke, because nothing CONTRADICTS THAT VADER KNOWS WHO LUKE IS,

    Episode III directly contraditcs the idea that Leia remembers her mother, and it requires you to invent the concept of her using the force to make it work. That is an invented position, and it is not what the character says herself.

    You can go around and around on this, it's still merely an invention and not in the film itself.
  9. Jango_Fett21 Force Ghost

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    ^ Your obtuseness astounds me. Myself and Count Yubnub haven't 'invented' anything. There is NOTHING in Episode III that contradicts Episode VI. NOTHING.
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  10. Placeholder Force Ghost

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    Of course you have. You've substituted Leia's stated memories for a vision. Yet, there is nothing to base that on. That conversation is about memories.
  11. Admiral Volshe Chosen One

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    Honestly, would she differentiate between a true memory and a "vision" of her mother that was implanted/suggested in her mind by the Force at a very young age?
    Have you heard of confabulation?
    Last edited by Admiral Volshe, Mar 7, 2013
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  12. Placeholder Force Ghost

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    That's just more of the type of invention I'm talking about to make one movie match up with the other. The very fact that it requires all of this proves that it is a plot hole. She clearly answers a question about her memories, but fans need to change that into "blah blah blah insert forced explanation here", substitute what is seen in the movie for this explanation instead.

    It doesn't matter how you dress it up. A plot hole is a plot hole is a plot hole.

    The movie ROTJ tells us one thing, all of you tell us something else
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Mar 7, 2013
  13. Admiral Volshe Chosen One

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    We're not inventing anything. We're stating the facts that have lead us to a certain conclusion.

    Fine if you don't agree, that is the point of a discussion.

    I'm saying that whether you decide to get technical and pick apart what are real memories and what are suggestions (either from her family or from the Force) or not, (and choose to ignore that there could very well be the two categories), wouldn't make a difference to Leia. She would see the memories as memories.

    It's still not a plot hole though, it doesn't really affect the plot. It's maybe a minor inconsistency.
  14. Placeholder Force Ghost

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    It's as big a plot hole as you will ever find in writing, and only a Star Wars fan would chose to defend it or pretend to not see it for what it is.

    It's a textbook example of a plot hole. It's a perfect example of one.

    It doesn't require me to "get technical". I only have to point to the movies. One scene openely contradicts the other. It's blatant. Any other reading of those scenes requires exuses from the audience. We see that on display on this thread. If you submitted this story of Leia as a paper in a creative writing class, you'd get called out on it. It's a huge plot hole.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Mar 7, 2013
  15. Admiral Volshe Chosen One

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    Aren't you a SW fan as well?


    I don't see it as a plot hole, it doesn't directly affect the plot and leave open ends that affect the story, truthfully. It also doesn't really defy logic. It's a fantasy/sci-fi film with an energy field that has already been proven and stated that it can give someone visions of the future, past, and people they've known.

    They don't blatantly contradict each other, it's possible, however extremely unlikely that Leia could remember that far back.
  16. Placeholder Force Ghost

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    No, to remember the day of your birth is impossible. This is just the type of crazy excuse making I'm talking about. However inadvertenlty, you are making my point for me with every post.

    Remember the day of your birth..................seriously.
  17. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

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    Calm down, all of you, or this thread is getting locked.
  18. _Catherine_ Chosen One

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    Let's try to look at it this way:

    1. Return of the Jedi comes out in 1983. Leia says she remembers her mother. Nothing in this film or the previous two suggests that she is lying or mistaken. Therefore in 1983 it is a fact that Leia remembers her mother, which means that her mother couldn't have died until Leia was around two or three years old, as that is when human memory begins to form. Are we agreed on this, or is there anyone who thinks there was room for debate on this at the time?

    2. Revenge of the Sith comes out in 2005. This film shows Leia's mother dying literally seconds after giving birth to Luke and Leia. Therefore Leia cannot have memories of her mother twenty-some years later in ROTJ.

    3. But it was already established in ROTJ that she does have those memories. This has been an established fact of Star Wars for twenty-two years. The information presented in a later film contradicts information presented in an earlier film and offers no explanation, not even a half-hearted one (see "a certain point of view"), for how both pieces of information can be true. This is a plot hole. (If you want to debate the semantic accuracy of that term, call it a contradiction or inconsistency, because that argument is just a distraction and misses the point completely.)

    4. Any attempt to rationalize this plot hole must by necessity discredit Leia, positing that she is mistaken in her belief that she remembers her mother. However, this is a deliberate misreading of the film, as we already agreed in point 1 that the way the scene was portrayed in ROTJ allowed no room for interpretation; the clear intention of the filmmakers was that Leia had literal memories of her mother. If a new entry in a series contradicts a previous entry, that contradiction must be explained within the text (as TESB's retconning of ANH was explained), otherwise it is a plot hole.

    5. So to claim that Leia was thinking of her adopted mother or that her Force-sensitivity let her remember her birth or that she had psychic visions of her mother as a small child (but strangely not as an older child or young adult, for some reason) is distorting the meaning of an earlier work to excuse the flaws in a new one. It's trying to force a square peg into a round plot hole. There's nothing wrong with being satisfied with that excuse on a personal level, but it's inaccurate to present this kind of extratextual revisionism as some irrefutable Band-Aid for the problem.
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  19. Admiral Volshe Chosen One

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    I think the point I'm trying to make is just that it's a universe similar to ours, however there's a few majors things that are different and can effect Leia's memories.

    I'm not trying to make a crazy excuse, I'm trying to view and debate the concept from a more fantastical POV, as it's a sci-fi/fantasy film.

    -

    And for the ideas of memories, my explanation was stating that in ROTJ, Leia had her memories (real or not), yes.
    Now if there was some interference by the Organas or by the Force, especially at a young age, she wouldn't register the difference. She would truly believe those are her own memories, even if they aren't.
    In this case, she wouldn't need to have memories of Padmé at her birth, they would have been suggested to her while she grew up.


    I'm not saying this explanation completely fixes the issue, just that it could be possible.
  20. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

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  21. Placeholder Force Ghost

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    Great post. I think that pretty much says it all.
  22. Placeholder Force Ghost

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    I am calm
  23. themetresgained Jedi Grand Master

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    It just seems a bit strange that there'd be interference from the Organas, because (I am borrowing from fanfic here but the point is still valid) Vader undoubtedly had contact with Alderaan as one of the more important planets in the galaxy and as a fairly obvious source of rebellion. If Vader ever suspected anything about Leia having links to Padme, it would have been really dangerous for Leia, it's bad enough that there's a physical resemblance.

    (I kind of blame FernWithy's fanfics for that train of thought).

    Re: the thread topic, it's been bothering me since I watched RotS. I don't think any explanation is ever going to be truly convincing, but I wanted to see if anyone thought there was something that worked. Clearly opinion is divided on that.
    Last edited by themetresgained, Mar 7, 2013
  24. Placeholder Force Ghost

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    It's best not to think about it too hard, her brother was raised on Vader's homeworld with his surname. They didn't think that through too hard if they wanted to convey that they needed to hide these kids from Vader.
  25. themetresgained Jedi Grand Master

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    I think there's everything to suggest that Vader would want to ignore everything related to Anakin, including Tatooine.
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