Saga Padme and the Twins

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by themetresgained, Mar 6, 2013.

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  1. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    But there is nothing to suggest why the Jedi would risk putting their last hope, or at least one half of their last hope, there at all. They have a whole galaxy to hide him in. And train him in, for that matter.
  2. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    In all fairness, you could also claim that EVERYTHING in Episode III contradicts Episode VI. Everything and nothing. That's the draw of the movies: they "beat against each other", to use GL's wording, and they are both beautifully synchronized and in a state of discord: a playful, elegant flux. Ultimately, the films are best thought of, in my opinion, as a sort of mosaic, or a galaxy in microcosm. Objects are grouped together, forming wonderfully intricate patterns, and they all obey the same basic laws, but each little segmentation tells its own story: islets in a vast foam. The metaphor of the Force powerfully binds them together. That is where you go -- that very flux is what you are enjoined to revel in -- for deeper insight; for an appreciation and understanding of what it is that binds. Forms change. Characters change. Places change. The colour palettes alter. The musical mood varies. And one episode will invariably have its own personality, distinct from the rest, but sharing much of the same genetic material.


    What "all" does it require? You could declaim all of "2001" in this way. Or all of SW for that matter.

    I think to those who don't have a problem with it, it's terribly simple: Leia unconsciously recalls the mother, just as Luke idly remarked that Dagobah was like something out of a dream, just like Vader told him to search his feelings right after disclosing that he was his father. You can't run away from the Force. Feelings and intuitions empower it or have their roots there.

    If you study the dialogue for one second, I think it's plainly obvious that this is what Lucas was going for. "Just images, really. Feelings." You're strangling the metaphor here. "Through the Force, other places you will see." ("The future, the past").

    And take note of the context of Luke's inquiry. He's asking Leia for at least two main reasons:

    1) To get some inkling of his real mother.
    2) To open Leia up to what he says next: that *she* has formidable ability with the Force, too ... but that her ability is untamed, non-concretized: i.e., it remains unfettered and abstract.

    We can see from this latter point that Leia actually has a wider ability than Luke. Or perhaps they are evenly matched, with Luke concentrating on the father, and Leia the mother. This is interesting. It is almost as if one cannot do what the other does (i.e., Luke cannot redeem Vader) without these exactly-opposite limitations.

    I've gone off the point, though: both of 'em!! It's not about why Luke asks Leia. It's about what Leia SAYS. And THEN it is, most manifestly, about everything else -- in particular, how this fits in with the larger paradigm of the Force granting certain people extraordinary vision. You might as well complain about Vader sensing Luke on Endor, while the Emperor grouses that he has not. Why does one of them feel something and the other can't?

    Your mind is already formulating an answer, isn't it? Yet you will persist at seeing the Leia-Padme link as a "plot hole". Why? Because ROTS didn't tell the story that YOU wanted to see? These little misalignments and riddles run the full length of the saga. Not every "i" is dotted, not every line is of equal length. "One Naboo cruiser got past the blockade." Some detail will always defy the mental ring you place around the story. Or as Leia puts it: "The more you tighten your grip, the more star systems will slip through your fingers."

    Oh, I'm sure I can find bigger "plot holes" in writing. I'll just open up and flick through, oh, the first ten pages of the Bible, for one: the most revered and widely-read book in history.

    Personally, I think "only a Star Wars fan" would so badly exaggerate and incessantly pound away on such a tiny facet. You're turning an intriguing point of trivia -- minutiae -- into a huge deal; and refusing to accept very basic explanations that challenge your dogma. Hey, we've all been there.

    Woe betide Lucas make a totally transparent/opaque work. Art is necessarily filled with elision and contradiction. A receiver of the art, who stands rapt in admiration, lets the Force flow through them. This creative interplay delights at both announcing paradox and bridging divides.

    "Huge" and "plot hole" are in the eye of the beholder.

    And you've made a number of references to writing here, when writing doesn't apply. These films are not prose. They're not even, strictly speaking, poetry.

    The difference between George Lucas and a person submitting papers in a creative writing class is profound. True artists follow their vision -- their preferences -- and create something that doesn't follow college mark schemes or confine itself to the provincial prejudices of its time. True artists know the power of individual expression; they break rules.

    I shudder to think of what would have happened -- and forgive me, because I'm trying to take your remark seriously, while traipsing through a billion layers of absurdity -- if Plato had submitted "The Republic" to a creative writing class, or Melville his cute little whale story, or Blake and his religious poetry. And how does one submit MOVING PAINTINGS to such a class? Let me know when you're done with that.

    And that's not me being irascible or malcontented. Mostly, it's not. :p You really do have to open yourself up to the full scope of the work to appreciate where it can take you, though. It thrives on limitation and awaits interpretation. It is there as an unfinished puzzle to innovate and inspire. You reach inside -- under the surface -- to pull up your treasure.
    Last edited by Cryogenic, Mar 7, 2013
  3. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    You're doing the same thing they are, creating explanations that are not found in the movie. There was not a metaphor there to be found, you invented it. Lucas never intended her mother to die in childbirth at the time that movie was made. There isn't even a hint that she is talking about anything other than her early memories of her mother. There is nothing to suggest that she had used the force, as you and others have attempted to imply. There's nothing of the sort there. There is a question about her memories, and her answer. You said I strangled the metaphor, the metaphor didn't exist for me to strangle it. It's not there.

    That plot hole is big enough to drive a truck through. Nothing you have said changes that in any way.

    And I shudder to think what happens when people try compare Episode III to Plato.

    I don't need you take me seriously

    I know the difference between film making and prose. This doesn't really come down to that difference. The plot is the plot. The story is the story.

    One movie gives us a Leia that knew her mother, and one gives us a Leia who's mother died the day she was born. That is a gigantic plot hole, no matter how you dress it up.

    If you can dispute that, do so now. But really do it. Because in all of that you just posted, you didn't even attempt to actually make a case that I was wrong. You made a case for why we should excuse it as art by comparing it to great works of history, in itself absurd, but not why I am wrong.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Mar 7, 2013
  4. Jango_Fett21 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2002
    star 3
    Mod Edit: No personal attacks
    Last edited by Darth_Nub, Mar 7, 2013
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  5. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    Cryogenic just wrote a more in depth version of the same argument you have been making. He invented a meaning in ROTJ that was not there. Every single argument that excuses the discrepancy between the films does this.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Mar 7, 2013
  6. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    Well, actually...

    I was trying to not give a definitive explanation: which would merely be *my* explanation.

    And it sounds like no explanation would ever be good enough for you, anyway.

    I don't care one iota what Lucas intended or not. I only care about what he did -- and when I'm sufficiently motivated, when, how, and why he did it.

    The Star Wars saga is a work of art; it can be compared with other works of art. I actually have a copy of Plato's "The Republic" inches from my desk as I type this. I see no problem making comparisons with it. Seeing connections between things is both how one learns and delights in learning.

    I'm not going to go any further than this with you. You clearly have a deep-seated need to keep repeating yourself: e.g., "It's a gigantic plot hole! It's gigantic plot hole! It's a gigantic plot hole!" and other variations. That sort of behaviour quickly grows tedious to me. If you really want to look at the films in that way, you've clearly chosen a great forum in which to do so. Have at it!
  7. Jango_Fett21 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2002
    star 3

    If it weren't there to see, we wouldn't be seeing it.
    Last edited by Jango_Fett21, Mar 7, 2013
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  8. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    Mod Edit: You've been warned. Drop it.
    Last edited by Darth_Nub, Mar 7, 2013
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