PT Palaptines "cheating Death" promise to Anakin

That is not the canon explanation. It's fan theory which has been contradicted by various sources, including Ian McDiarmid in Insider, John Knoll on the ROTS commentary, Lucas' edits to Stover's original ROTS novel manuscript, not to mention EU sources such as Dark Lord and Sithisis. This is also useful.

That book: so, so good.

 

Cryo: Rest assured I'm under no delusion about Churchill. He was a moral pygmy who, in respect to posterity, benefited from being pitted against a monster. (Coincidentally, Hitler, ever the student of history, was keenly interested in how the British and American empires dealt with pesky indigenous. I would imagine terms like ?Trail of Tears? and ?Boer Wars? elicited more than a few jollies.)

I used the priest example for the purpose you cited, although I feel it suits Anakin. Remember, for all his faults, he still perceives the Force as a reality, rather than as a metaphysical abstraction. Had their relationship been any less parasitic, the seemingly secularist head-of-state's reference would have set off every mental alarm imaginable in the boy.

 

I often wonder how Hitler would have been viewed had he not perpetrated the Holocaust. I likewise also wonder how we would today perceive Jews had the terrible genocide not occured. While Hitler lacked completely in moral fibre (rest assured that was his flaw, not pure methodical evil) and was a terrible man it does seem he is scapegoated with perceptions of the era which were widespread. Stalin was worse in my opinion and Churchill, as mentioned, was also racist in many ways... Had the Holocaust not occurred would he not be perceived on the same level as the Kaiser, or at the very worst as a Tsar or Mussolini? Deserves he reputation, however it blinds many to the realities of the era.

...but I digress...

 

Palpatine is a Sith Lord. Sith Lords are all about power. Palpatine tries to hype himself up to Anakin as powerful enough to save his wife.

Yet as Anakin walks into Palpatine's office, Palpatine is laid out on the floor with a lightsaber in his face.

Palpatine strikes out with lightning, but Mace turns it back on him. Palpatine then begs for his life and refers to himself as "too weak".

This is the guy that is supposed to be powerful enough to save Padme? Dum dum dum dum dumb.

(yes yes, dark side, path to the unnatural and all that)

 

Whatever Palpatine's Force power level is, it doesn't prevent Mace from being a better lightsaber combatant. These things are in no way mutually exclusive. According to the novel, Mace's saber skills are "unmatched".

And almost immediately reveals himself to not actually be "too weak" in that sense.

 

For someone who is supposed to be so powerful he can stop people from dying, he's not making a good case for himself by getting owned by Mace and then cowering on the floor begging for his life.

Can you at least admit he's not making a good case for himself?

Irrelevant, the decision was already made. Anakin just chopped off Mace's hand.

 

He already bested three of the best swordsmen of the Jedi Order and was only defeated by Mace through the reflection of his own power. Besides this being a wiseman does not nessisarily equal being a great swordsman and visa-versa and his showing of power in electrocuting Mace made it obvious that Palpatine had 'played dead' and that it was a ruse. Furthermore Anakin has ample evidence that the Dark Lord of the Sith has this power given the very fact he is the Dark Lord of the Sith in the first place.

So, no, there is reason enough for Anakin to still think Palpatine still had the power to save Padme... right up until he tells him that they must learn the power together... at which point Anakin is too far gone.

To add Mace is the epitome of powerful Jedi in Anakin's view (cite AOTC). There is no reason to think that he couldn't defeat Sidious, especially given that from Anakin's point of view he has already had to defeat three other masters...

 

Hitler had this inferiority complex that would make him commit something dumb and terrible sooner or later.

The Kaiser ... didn't, that I know of. Kaiser Franz-Josephs Problem was that he was a fossile, living in a different time and not understanding the present.

 

I wouldn't say that Hitler's inferiority complex would have inevitably caused, nor nessisarily did it cause, the terrible madness which befell his later rule. I attribute it to two things; Hitlers dilution of his invincibility and his moral disconnect from the world.

Kaiser Wilhelm's goals were not all that different from Hitler's: an ambitious megalomaniac who wanted Germany to be a world superpower (or greatest great power in those days I guess). Rather I would suggest, given his deformed arm, if either had rampant inferiority complex it would have been the Kaiser.

 

Sidious/Palpatine was a straight up manipulator and liar. First he tells Anakin that he had the power to save Padme, then after Anakin turns he tells him that if he and Anakin worked together they could discover the secret. It seems Anakin should have objected but he didn't or he wasn't wise enough.

 

He had already fallen to the dark side and betrayed his friends by helping murder Mace. He was on the path he couldn't return from because of the flaws that put him there in the first place...

 

This picture suggests otherwise.

[image=http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110211235650/starwars/images/thumb/8/84/AnakinSkywalkerghost.jpg/200px-AnakinSkywalkerghost.jpg]

 

He couldn't return from, as in prurely by himself. Obviously Luke proved the catalyst To redeme Anakin...

 

Debateable. I don't think it fits in here, however.

Oh, you meant Kaiser Wilhelm. I thought you meant Kaiser Franz-Joseph, who was also very much responsible for WW1.

 

That depends on your definition of "couldn't".

 

I am guessing by your definition then even Palpatine could be redeemed. Tell me what is the likelihood of Anakin being redeemed given he just betrayed the Jedi Order to save Padme and in order to save her he needs to continue on this path? Furthermore what is the likelihood of him being redeemed after he is put in a situation where in he has destroyed everything he cared for... remember he is only redeemed once that returns to him in the form of Luke. Fact of the matter is his pathological fears and flaws place him in a situation where-in he was never going to be redeemed by himself...

Just my opinion.

Yeah I agree; not the place for this discussion.

 

I don't see Palpatine appearing to not be able to save himself as much of a contradicition. In the story of Darth Plagueis, Plagueis himself couldn't save himself from death, despite having the power to do so for others.

Agreed. He's already been in a state induced by the darkside IMO, and he's "stressed" for lack of a better word.

He didn't. I agree that it should have made Anakin suspicious, but as we see, he trusts Palpatine at this point. Palpatine only reveals the direct knowledge of Anakin's visions when he wants to reveal himself as the Sith Lord.

 

I understand your opinion.

My definition of 'could' is simply capability. Anakin had the capability to choose, so he is in direct control of his path. 'Likelihood' implies there is some sort of random chance. There's nothing random about it, Anakin is in direct control.

Oh and we were talking about killing Mace as the point of no return. At this point, Padme and Obi-Wan are still alive and the Jedi Order is still intact. I still believe he was capable of coming back to the light at any given point, even after killing Padme and Obi-Wan.

I'm not saying it's a contradiction, I'm just saying it looks bad. Palpatine is doing a very poor job selling himself at that moment. Apparently Anakin didn't need any more convincing at that point.

 

Well, the seeds of doubt had long been sewed in Anakin, seeing Mace defying the Jedi Code just confirms his fears.
To me the scene works much better if we feel Anakin has passed the point of no-return by aiding in Mace's death. It's a betrayal that he probably feels the Jedi can't forgive him for, and a final use of the darkside that pushes him to a new level.

I don't see why Palpatine appearing weak is that much of a problem. IMO Anakin, even after finding out Palpatine is Sidious, possibly sees him more as a wise old man than a ferocious duelist. What he sees in the office backs that up. I could be wrong. It seems similar to ROTJ, where Sidious lets Vader do the dirty work (dueling Luke), while The Emperor just looks on.

Although Palpatine's argument does appear thin, I see enough factors apparent to finally push Anakin over the edge. Do remember, there are many occassions throughout the saga where Anakin/Vader is reminded of the extent of Palpatine's power. A belief Sidious has been subtley installing in him since before AOTC. Take for example the way he reveals the information that Palpatine is a Sith to Mace. "Master, the Chancellor is very powerful. You'll need my help if you are going to arrest him." He never seems to lose this belief, besides that brief important moment where Sidious appears at Mace's mercy. Another obvious example... "Indeed you are powerful, as the Emperor has forseen."

 

in the script and novel during the reveal Sidious tells Anakin that it's a true story...

 

No, I reject the premise. Palpatine's Force potential and Mace's combat skills are not mutually exclusive. As Kas'im said, someone well trained in lightsaber combat can defeat an opponent who is stronger in the Force. Furthermore, the case that Palpatine is making, right from the beginning, is about Anakin achieving the ability through training in the dark side itself: Only through me can you achieve a power greater than any Jedi. Learn to know the dark side of the Force, and you will be able to save your wife from certain death.

The alleged power to "stop death" in someone who is dying doesn't necessarily equate to being able to stop one's own death ( he could save others from death, but not himself ), and it certainly wouldn't equate to invulnerability in combat or infinite reserves. In any event, from Anakin's POV "just maybe" isn't enough to go on when Padme's life hangs in the balance.

 

[image=http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110211235650/starwars/images/thumb/8/84/AnakinSkywalkerghost.jpg/200px-AnakinSkywalkerghost.jpg]

Suggestions, or not... that pic is still pure rubbish. The story is not better off, because of it. Thus, it is less useful than Bantha dung as fuel for a hyper-drive.

 

Well Palpatine was saying the truth when he told the story about Plagueis having some sort of control over life since he did in fact influenced midichlorians to create Anakin, but anything other than that is just lies and deceit - common and typical traces of a Sith. Plagueis knew nothing about stopping death or stopping the prophetic visions from happening, and the lie about him knowing how to stop people he cared about from dying didnt come untill after Anakin didnt seem to take the bait. Palpatine was obviously just telling/promising Anakin exactly what he wanted, a way to save Padme. Its obvious not only because its too coincidental that it just so happened that he knew someone who could cheat death , but also Siths dont care about anybody aside from themselves. They dont love. Theyre selfish, evil, cruel and seek power and power only, so why would Plagueis try to save "loved ones"?

And then of course Sidious reveals that he doesnt know how to cheat death (even thought he told Anakin that Plagueis taught his apprentice everything he knew) but that they might learn how if they work together. More lies to turn Anakin, just empty promises. Again, not only such knowledge didnt exist, but also it would obviously work against Sidious' plans to actually save Padme. he wanted to get rid of Padme and everyone else Anakin cared about (including Obi Wan) and just have him turn to the dark side and remain loyal only to him

As for Anakin believing all the bs that Sidious fed him, I always thought its just part of Anakin's character to be extremely gullible and manipulative because of his impulsiveness and young age. Naivete and young age very often come in pairs. Poor guy was just a young kid deeply immersed in his first love who just had a bad life (loss of mother, confusion) and was tricked into doing horrific acts.

 

That's not really how it happened in the film. I thought not. It's not a story the Jedi would tell you. It's a Sith legend. Darth Plagueis was a Dark Lord of the Sith, so powerful and so wise he could use the Force to influence the midi-chlorians to create life ... He had such a knowledge of the dark side that he could even keep the ones he cared about from dying. There's no break in the middle of that which would allow for Anakin to "take the bait". As soon as Palpatine starts talking about Plagueis, he goes right to the relevant part, AKA "the bait".

It was "ones he cared about", not "loved ones". Sith care about keeping their apprentices alive, as we see at the end of ROTS. Furthermore, Anakin's whole arc in the film is about becoming a Sith to prevent someone from dying. Labeling Anakin as stupid can't erase the fact that this kind of possessive and self-centered "love" would be consistent with the outlook of a Sith.

And the plural of Sith is Sith.

According to James Luceno, Michael Reaves and Steve Perry in the EU, Plagueis didn't know how to "cheat death" either, making the "taught his apprentice everything he knew" thing accurate, and avoiding the plot hole of Palpatine foolishly killing Plagueis before first learning the secret. But the power itself still exists, and was known to an ancient Sith - or at least ROTS-era Palpatine sincerely thinks so. Those who assume that Palpatine casually tells blatant lies to Anakin tend to underestimate the utility of the Force in this area. Anakin is no Muggle.