Palpatine and Sidious - New Ideas.

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by billydeewilliams, May 19, 2002.

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  1. billydeewilliams Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
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    I think the speculation on this topic is very interesting and I am keen to advance the debate, as I feel there is alot of credence in the idea that Palpatine and Sidious maybe not be one in the same, mostly for the reasons listed elsewhere on this topic, but also because of the interesting role played by Padme /Amidala in TPM.

    During TPM we (the audience and the characters) are told on two seperate occasions that we 'assume too much.' Once, when Nute says it to Amidala, and another time when Padme says it to Qui Gon (in reference to her secretly being the queen). I think that this line was used twice by GL deliberately, to make a point to the us, the audience, that our existing assumptions maybe incorrect and that we maybe in for a few surprises.

    Now we all know how GL loves to play around with certain themes, to have them re-emerge in different episodes and reflect and contrast with one another. Well all the way through TPM, we and the characters are led to believe that the Amidala we see (actually called Sabe) is the queen and that Padme is her loyal handmaiden. However, what we actually learn, later on in the film, is that the Amidala we see (Sabe) is mearly a decoy and Padme is in the fact the queen, masquerading as her handmaiden. Why is this important? Well maybe this is setting us up for a similar switching of roles between two characters in Episode III. Just as Padme stepped forward on Naboo and took on the role of the queen, similarly, Sidious will step forward and take on the role of Emporer. Remember that in TPM, Padme uses her decoy (Sabe) to play both sides as it were. It is a dual identity that convieniently allows her to explore tattooine with Qui Gonn and go unoticed, yet at the same time stay on the board the ship in case any assination attempts are made. In this sense, the same sort of thing is happening with Sidious / Palpatine. Sidious is using Palapatine to control the Senate while he does all the work behind the scenes. Sidious / Palapatine cannot be in two places at once (as they seeminglnly were at the end of ATOC), and this is why there are two of them. Padme and Sabe cannot be in two places at once, this is why there are two of them, one to stay on board the ship, the other to explore the planet. It makes sense for Amidala to have a Decoy in TPM. If the decoy is killed then the real queen survives. Again, in Episode III, I think we are probably going to see the Jedi begin to question Palpatine, as indicated at the end of ATOC when they talk about keeping a closer eye on the senate. But if anything does happen to Palpatine Sidious will remain intact, and ready to take over.

    I know there are many of you out there that don?t like the idea of Palpatine not being Sidious, and think that if they weren?t the same person it would be a pointless, irrelevant twist. But I totally disagree. Rather than an earth ?shattering revelation, you need to see it as another THEME in the Star Wars Saga, and one that reflects and comoplements the Amidala / Padme switch in TPM and adds extra layers and complexities to the overall story. Asking ?what?s the point having Palpatine and Sidious as two different people?? is like asking: ?What?s the point in having Amidala and Padme as two different people?? You didn?t need to have it in there but it made the plot a lot more interesting and is another twist in a tale that spends a lot of time musing on the role of identity and playing with our assumptions of who exactly people are.
    It also dosn?t make Sidious any less evil. In fact, it makes him the ULTIMATE puppet master.


    People who need evidence that Palpatine and Sidious are separate need look no further that Sideous himslef. He looks exactly the same as he did in TPM, whereas Palpatine has aged / decayed considerably (his skins almost falling off him for christ?s sake!). If Palpatine is a clone (as some have been suggesting, and this would tie in with the accelerated aging), it would also complement the Jango Fett / Boba Fett storyline quite nicely (cloning yourself).

    Forget what?s said outside of
  2. ZippZopp Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2001
    very nicely put, i like that theory. im in the same boat as you are, i'm not totally sure if they are the same person. i think you've nailed the whole topic with the way that lucas has themes pop up in different forms.
  3. billydeewilliams Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 1
    Thankyou ZipZopp, everybody else is trashing these ides, saying that they're overly complicated, when in fact they're very simple. What annoys me is that alot of people don't seem to recognise the reccurring THEMES in the Star Wars saga, especially concerning identity. They seem to think that if Palpatine and Sidious are different people it somehow dimishes the whole story. Of course it doesn't, it just makes it that little bit more intricate and complex. People who say that Star Wars isn't a complex story clearly aren't watching the same series of movies that I am.
  4. Darth_OlsenTwins Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    My point is that

    THESE MOVIES ARE NOT ABOUT CLONES

    There is already an identity issue with Palpy and Sidious. But for some reason that is not enough. It will be for the characters when they find out.
  5. billydeewilliams Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 1
    You can say 'THESE MOVIES ARE NOT ABOUT CLONES', but this a point immediately refuted by the fact that ATOC features a CLONE army, CLONED from a bounty hunter, who CLONES himself a son. Now tell me 'THESE MOVIES ARE NOT ABOUT CLONES.'
  6. Darth_OlsenTwins Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    Exactly, I think that the clone issue has already been exhausted in AOTC. What will Ep III be called,"Attack of trhe Phantom Clone". This isnt the EU, no bashing intended.
  7. Qui-Gon-John Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    Remember what Obi-Wan says to Luke?

    "Many of the truths we cling to depend on our own point of view"

    I have a feeling that the Jedi council is keeping something secret. I think they are hiding something that happened to this Sifo Dyas character. I think they are not coming clean with Obi-Wan on what they know. I think they also must know something about Palpatine/Sidious as well. I mean how could he become so powerful without training of some sort? Yoda trained Dooku and look how powerful he is. Sidious must be more powerful than Dooku in order for him to be his apprentice. Where did Sidious get his power? He must be some sort of fallen Jedi wouldn't you think? And the council must know something about him that they are not telling. It might be something embarassing to them. Something they hope not to have to reveal. his would parallel the "secret" Obi-Wan kept from Luke. There might be a similar secret that Anakin learns that sends him ultimately to the dark side. Lukes secret could have sent him to the dark side but it didn't. You could see the parallels.
  8. billydeewilliams Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 1
    Listen, lets get one thing straight. I have ZERO interest in the EU. I don't care what goes on outside the movies. I'm merely considering the possibilities, and i belive this is a likely one. I'm convinced GL included the whole Amidala / Sabe switch to make a point, and one that would be refelcted later on in the series. Every theme in star wars is replicated / reflected elsewhere, and i think this one is no exception. As this Amidala / Sabe theme hasn't been replicated in the OT, i can only arrive at the conclusion that it will be replicated / reflected Ep. III. And Every indication is that it will happen with Palpatine / Sidious. You make not think it will happen at all, but i'm just trying to look at the Star Wars saga structually and thematically. And this fits.
  9. Vaders_leash Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2001
    star 3
    Then you have two kinds of identities at work. First, in TPM, you have Palpatine and Sidious working together, and Padme and Sabe working together.

    Now, in AOTC, they show a duel ID used by one person, a former Jedi. To Sidious, he is Lord Tyrannus. To the Jedi and the Republic, he goes by his Jedi monicker, Dooku.

    Much the same will happen to Anakin; he will be called Lord Vader by Sidious. But by then, the Republic will be transformed and Anakin will no longer need 'Skywalker'.
  10. billydeewilliams Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 1
    Exactly Vaders_Leash (like the name). Maybe we'll see those two kinds of identities converge in the third, when Darth Vader kills Anakin (from a certain point of view) and when Sidious kills Palpatine.
  11. Darth_OlsenTwins Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    Its not that I think your theory is bad, Billie Dee. Actually it is one of the best reasons that Ive heard in a while. But the clone thing is just too much. If somebody convinced me that they are not clones and explained it some other way then, maybe. I just think that the plot is intriguing enough with Sidious=Palpy controlling both sides of the war. That itself is climactic enough, anything more would be overkill, and I would be seriously disappointed. The only reason GL has these clones is because he mentioned the Clone War in ANH. He needs continuity of the story.

    I am truly not trying to bash you. You seem like a smart guy, and I think that you intelligence can be used to try and solve the other mysteries that have truly been presented in the stories.

    GL has confirmed that they are the same person. I think it would be better if we moved on.

    I feel like im fighting my own "Clone War".
  12. Darth_OlsenTwins Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    I agree that there are parallels, but not everything is a parallel.
  13. billydeewilliams Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 1
    Darth Olsen, i do not necessarily think that palpatine is a clone. the only thing that leans me towards this view is that he seems to be rapidly decaying (which would fit in with the idea of accelerated growth). However, i heard some other guy, (i can't remember on which post) talking about this Roman legend that contained two twins who sought to take over Rome and worked in tandem to do complete this aim. One of them (I forget his name) climbed a hill called 'Palpatine' to view the kingdom. Now it may just be coincidence, but i very much doubt it. GL loves to incorperate myths into his own framework and also loves to take names form other places (Such as Dooku, the Japenese word for 'Poison.) you read this guy's post about the roman Legend? What did you think?
  14. Darth_OlsenTwins Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    Actually, I didnt read the post but let me know were it is.

    This stuff is framed on Roman legend but its not followed all that closely. Its a darn good idea, dont get me wrong. But im just not buying it. If you think of something that could explain why they arent the same person without cloning and without him being his sisters uncles cousin. I promise that I will be honest and not too critical

    Im just a die hard Palpy=Sid believer. Theres too many reasons why they are the same and no reason why they would be different.

    Palpatine needs an alter-ego to control the Senate and another to control the dark-side issues. Coming to the Senate dressed as a Sith would tip some people off. Hes just shrewd and deceptive. Plain and simple.
  15. Vaders_leash Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2001
    star 3
    Actually, when I first walked out of seeing TPM, I considered that Palpatine/Sidious to be a Jekyl/Hyde kind of deal.

    But I would prefer to see a Padme/Sabe kind of situation involving Palpatine and Sidious. Perhaps Obi-Wan's line to Boss Nass about 'a symbiotic relationship' is somehow used as a basic theme in the PT.
  16. CPCGAMES Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 1
    I still think there is a good chance that they are the same. So if they aren't who cares. Why would I need to feel ultimately embarrassed? Man it is just an opinion and a thought. Why would I take personal offense to that by getting embarrassed? Why would I feel embarrassed by something that is just a movie anyways. I hate it when people use the word embarrassed. Like when someone said that when Boba Fett paints the helmet it still has the dent that his father made and if Lucas doesn't fix that he will be very embarrassed. Just very stupid way of putting things together.

    I just ask how could Palpatine all of a sudden become a Sith Lord by the OT and show no sign of being one in the PT. It is because in order to rise in senate power he needed to contain his identity as a sith lord. But he also had to make sure the sith would regain power so he took on the role of two people so he could get both of his goals accomplished. If I am wrong so be it, but I will definately not be embarrassed it is all fiction anyways.
  17. billydeewilliams Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 1
    Darth Olsen, the suff on Roman Legend is here:

    http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=6808707&page=13

    However, when i found the post i saw you had posted something right after it, and it sounded like you'd seen it already. are therir two Darth Olsen's?

    I do agree with you that there is probably nothing that can be added to this debate. I also agree that the Sidious / Palpatine connection should not be some convoluted explantion- half - brother etc. But this Roman Legend revolves around two twins, which is quite interesting (Luke and Leia).

    I get the impression you think this is a redundant topic, but i was only trying to advance a new way of approaching the subject and explain why it would tie in thematically with TPM. What do you consider the most important questions raised by TPM and ATOC ? Let me know.
  18. Darth_OlsenTwins Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    My most important discussion topics for the PT:

    1) How does Palpy get Anakin to turn to the dark side? We can only speculate, but I dont think they kill Padme. Leia was old enough to remember her mother (Padme) from ROTJ. Whats the timeline of Ep. III, 2 years, four years after AOTC? I think she lives.

    2) Yoda hears Qui-Gon's voice in the meditation chamber? There is some discussion about the voice, but the script and the novel say that Qui-Gon said it all. Assuming this is true, I think that hearing Qui-Gon is a big surprise to Yoda and that there is more going on than a war. I think that something strange and unexpected going on with the Force and it all ties in with disappearing, reappearing, the Prophecy, and a Jedi dying. Remember that no Jedi disappears as a result of death in the PT, only in the OT. I really like this point, and Lucas said it would be a major plot point for Ep III.

    3) The Jedi unlocking all the mysteries and why they end up being too late to stop Palpy.
    ie. Sifo-Dyas, Tyranus, Sid, erasing of Kamino, who is behind the clone army, the Senate

    4) I think that Yoda and Mace know something, possibly about the prophecy, that they arent telling anyone.

    I just think that these are some of the good topics of discussion and this clone thing is throwing everyone way off track. Let me know what you think
  19. billydeewilliams Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
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    Darth Olsen, first of all, let me just say I don?t think that the Palpatine / Sidious switch will be the major twist in Episode III. It will be one of the many twists, and I agree the points you have raised are as important, if not more so.

    In response to point number one: I think Padme definitely dies. GL has said that Episode III will be a tragedy and I think that for the love story to be important in these films then she has to die, and maybe its Anakins fault. I think her death is important to his transition to the darkside because he loses everything that?s important to him? his mother and Padme (who I think Anakin kind of identifies with as his mother anyway, but I won?t go into that right now). Isn?t there something in the TPM novel about a dream that Anakin has where Padme is leading an army out to war. Maybe they come face to face. I don?t know, I?ll have to think about this one.

    I agree, Point number two is FUNDAMENTAL to the Star Wars saga. Rick Mcallum said that in Episode II we would learn something about the force which explained why Obi Wan said in ANH ?if you strike me down I will become more powerful than you can ever imagine.? I think the scene where Yoda hears Qui Gon goes some way to explaining this. Maybe Qui Gon had found a way to prevent himself becoming one with the force when he dies. Maybe, and I find this idea quite interesting, he learn?t how to do this from his Master, Dooku. What are your thoughts on this?
    We also know that Qui Gon was a student of the Living force, rather than the Unifying force, which is one of the reasons he is seen as rebellious by the Council. In fact, we see this from the opening of TPM where Qui Gon tells Obi Wan to ?Keep your concentration HERE and NOW, where it belongs.? When Obi Wan says that ?Master Yoda says I should be mindful of the future? Qui Gon replies: ?But not at the expense of the MOMENT. Be mindful of the living force.?
    Maybe this has something to do with it. Again, it requires more thought, but it is nevertheless interesting.
    Also -does this have something to do with Anakin's comment to padme that 'Someday I'll learn how to stop people dying'. Is it significant? I tend to think that GL wouldn't have put soemthing like that in there for no reason.

    On points Three and Four, I totally agree. Yoda and Mace definitely know something ?you don?t put that many knowing looks in between two characters without there being something significant in it.

    On the subject of Syfo -Dyas, I am intensely interested by this character. GL didn?t have to stick his/ her name into the pot but he has and I believe we will hear that name again. I have heard some say they think Qui ?Gon is Syfo ?Dyas, but I?m not so sure about that one.
  20. Darth_OlsenTwins Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    Alright Billie, now we are starting to get somewhere.

    About Padme. I still think she lives. If her death is instumental in Anakin's turn then Luke and Leia have been born and are at an age that Leia can remember her mother. That means that Vader knows that theyre alive and he wouldve told Palpy. Vader wouldve found Luke well before ANH if this was the case. Let me know what thread this is on.

    I didnt hear about the McCallum bit about the major plot point of Qui-Gon's voice but we are discussing it in the Official Qui-Gon thread. Its getting pretty good there. Could use your help there.

    I also started a thread about Mace and Yoda somewhere round here also getting pretty decent.

    I agree about Sifo-Dyas being a central plot point in Ep III. Weve got this in the Official Sifo-Dyas thread. Youre right GL made this a mystery for a purpose. When the Jedi unlock this it will be the discovery that Dooku=Tyranus works for Sid=Palpy (or whatever you think, lol).

    I just cant buy any reason that anyone has given about Sid not being Palpy. It doesnt seem necessary for the diference. What difference is it going to make to any character. Its simply unneeded. It sounds like too much of an EU story than a Star Wars movie. Its already sneaky enough that Palpy controls everything, why complicate more. Its unnecessary. However im glad that you started a thread that deals with things other than that darn clone theory. I like your thinking though.

    "Together we can destroy the Emperor"

  21. billydeewilliams Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 1
    Okay, here's an idea (you going to have to bear with me on this one), cause its an idea that works thematically with ideas in the OT. i will also post it up on your 'what do mace and yoda know' too, cause i think they (especially yoda) knows a hell of alot that they're not letting on.

    Okay, here's the premise. Maybe Syfo-dyas wasn't actually killied at all. Remember how Ben Kenobi told Luke that Darth vader 'betrayed and murdered' his father? Remember how Owen told Luke that Kenobi was also dead, when he wasn't? Both of them were lying. And they weren't simply lies to stop Luke knowing about his father, but were also lies, i think, to cover up a certain amount of guilt or embarassment. What if Syfo-dyas had never been killed at all, but this was just a metaphor (as with Vader) for this character turning to the dark side. This would definately be a bone of contention for Yoda and Mace, a point of shame and possibly even guilt about waht happened. It is interesting that Obi-wan asks 'did'nt Master Syfo-dyas die over ten years ago' as if he only heard about it second hand. Could it be the same lies used in ANH being used again? Its jsut an idea, but if Syfo-dyas did die more than ten years ago then that would place his death before TPM, which is the first time Sidious /Palpatine comes into play, right after Syfo-dyas 'dies'. Maybe Sidious and Syfo -dyas are one in the same. Maybe Sidious is a fallen Jedi, who knows. all i know is that Mace and Yoda are covering up something and appearing to be lying to Obi Wan about Syfo -dyas's 'death'. Any thoughts?



    I've see the Official qui _gon thread, jsut haven't posted there yet
  22. beetzello Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 1
    Some one in this thread mentioned the importance of identity in the Star Wars saga, that it is one of the recurring themes. Specifically, some one alluded Palpy-Sid as some kind of Jekyll & Hyde scenario. Well, the help solidify this thought on the importance of identity in the Star Wars saga, I would like to point out the switcheroo between C3PO and a battle droid in AOTC. It seems like not only did GL use these antics as a device for humor, but also to drive home his point of identity... when C3PO says "I'm so confusd!" it's almost as if GL is mocking the audience, to say that everyone in the theater is confused, that the identity of everyone in the film has been blurred. Further, Zam Wessel is a changling, which also brings home the point on the elusiveness of identity. Although her shape-shifting powers was not a major plot point, the core of her character does add some gloss to the identity theme, further illuminating the fragility of identity in the Star Wars saga.
  23. Boola Cronk Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 5, 1999
    star 2
    Darth_Olsen,

    GL did NOT say that Sidous/Palpatine were the same person. If he did that that would give away a rather important plot point that he is OBVIOUSLY trying to obscure. What he DID say is that they are played by the same actor.

  24. ferelwookie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2001
    star 4
  25. whostheBossk Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 16, 2002
    star 4
    In Ep.I , Palpatine could still be Sidious. However in Ep.II, I believe in the 10 years that has passed, Sidious's clone has now accellerated enough to be able to step into the politic scene. He is using him now to block the dark force he has used from the jedi.
    Overall this will be the big revelation in Ep. III.
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