Palpatine and Sidious - New Ideas.

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by billydeewilliams, May 19, 2002.

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  1. ObiDanKenobi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 1
    billydee - what did u think of what I said about 5 posts up?

    Also, as was said earlier - just cause its the same actor doesnt guarantee they are the same character in the movie...

    (although in this case it does.. but u need more evidence than that)
  2. obsessedwithstarwars Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    ok - Am I crazy or what? The big secret is that Palpy/Sidious is going to turn out to be Anakin's father! Remember when Shmi said there is no father? That she could not explain it? Maybe she meant that she could not tell him about the father. Perhaps she is Palpy/Sidious's twin sister? That is why she is on that remote planet! She was hiding her son! And Palpy/Sidious had her tortured just long enough so that it would affect Anakin. Finding out that he is his father is what is going to send Anakin over the edge and he will join his father now that his mother is gone. And it would be a great twist that his grandad started this whole thing, Darth Vader continued and they were redeemed by their grandson? Is Shmi Syfo-Dyas? I guarantee you that Yoda knows.
  3. jedi_vadar Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    Actually if you look at the databank he mentions that Palpatine is the emperor, never ever that Sidious and Palpatine are the same. In fact he avoids every single mention of Sidious/Palaptine in either of their descriptions. To me it supports the other -- it's more likely that somehow Sidious becomes Palpatine, but is not at the time. And while Yes Lucas has usually choosen the easiest solution in Ep 4-6, he doesn't appear to be following that path in these. Compared to the plots of those, the prequils are amazingly complex. Keep in mind that the 2nd three were the rise of good -- these 3 are the rise of darkness. I'm more convinced than ever that Palpatine and Sidious are not the same, but still don't think there's a whole lot of conclusive proof either way as to how exactly the Emperor we know from 4-6 comes to power.
  4. Sith_Butters Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 1
    I personaly think they are 2 different people. How about Sidious being Palpatines father? I know it's far fetched, but GL has done the father surprise on us before.
  5. ObiDanKenobi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 1
    but on the databank page about Palpatine, there is a picture of him as the emperor sidious as well as one of him as palpatine.... come on!
  6. jedi_vadar Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    If Lucas really wanted to just outright admit it he would have come right out and said Sidious is Palpatine's alter ego. He's not one to do anything halfway.

    I think the best explanation is that somehow Sidious becomes Palpatine or something like that. He has to bring in some surprise somewhere. We know what the end is going to be -- it would be a pretty bad movie without it -- bringing in the whole Sidious and Palpatine are not equal would be a perfect surprise -- not as cheap as repeating the I am your father bit...
  7. Nothlit Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2001
    Darth Cronus and JMad_Dog, of course Palpatine and Sidious are played by the same actor. We have known that all along. It was quite obvious from the moment we connected Episode I's "Senator Palpatine" with Episode VI's "Emperor Palpatine." They share the same name. Emperor Palpatine and Darth Sidious also share the same physical appearance and cloak. Therefore we can assume some sort of logical flow between these "three" characters.

    That is not really the debate here...the debate here is whether Palpatine and Sidious in the PT are in fact one single person playing both sides of the table, so to speak...or whether they are two separate people (either twins or clones).

    I have to admit that I can't make up my mind on the matter. After Episode I, I was firmly convinced that they are one single person. After seeing Episode II and reading messages here at these forums, however, I started to change my mind. But then I went back and watched Episode I again last night, and saw Episode II again today, and I think I'm leaning away from the twin/clone idea again. There is simply too much of an "undertone" of hidden meaning in many of Palpatine's statements in these two movies. From his line about watching young Anakin's "career with great interest," to Anakin's telling him in Episode II that he could not have come as far as he had without Palpatine's guidance, to Palpatine immediately telling Anakin he foresees Anakin becoming the most powerful of all Jedi. Then there is the matter of Palpatine finishing Amidala's sentence at the beginning of Episode II, and Yoda's quizzical look at him.

    While I would like to believe the twin/clone argument, at this point I'm going to need a lot more evidence and convincing than simply the "dual identities" motif. I may eat my words some day, but hey, it's just my opinion...easily changed, eh? ;)
  8. LordOfTetris Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 11, 2002
    star 1
    Remember in ANH when Obi Wan said "Darth Vader betrayed and murdered your father"? Then in ROTJ, Obi Wan took back his words and rephrased them as "He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker, and the good man who was your father was destroyed."

    That's a sort of 180 twist on a theme you assume to be true during the first two movies of the trilogy.

    I think the 180 twist of the PT is the Sidious thing. Maybe we "know" something to be true about Sidious/Palpatine for Episodes I and II, and in Episode 3, this fact will be turned 180 degrees and reversed.

    My personal opinion is that Sidiuos and Palpatine are the same guy.

    It is also my opinion that my opinion is only an opinion, and I will find out if I'm right or not in episode 3.
  9. Obi-Wan Harclerode Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 2000
    star 3
    I believe Sifo Dyas is the key, Mace and Yoda know something about this guy that will solve the whole mystery. He could be Sidious, who was a Jedi at one point and who erased Kamino.

    As for the end, their is actually some time that has passed there, between when you see Sidous and the other scenes.

    Yet I firmly believe that Sidious is not Palp. Palp is duped somehow, maybe even killed by the Jedi who think he is Sidious, then Sidious takes over.

    As for the Roman story it is quite interesting, Romulus and Remus were twin brothers who founded Rome. One betrays the other and kills him, then he takes all power for himself.

    Look at Palp, and look at Sidious in AOTC, they don't look the same anymore, Palp, looks like he is dying, Sidious looks the same.

    Non-believers you are in for a shock in EPIII. But Mace and Yoda definetely know something shocking about Sifo-Dyas.
  10. Tricky Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 26, 2001
    star 5
    So you think that You saw Palpatine & Darth Sidious at 2 different places at the same time on Coruscant?

    The first was when Count Dooku rushed away from Geonosis to immediately give Darth Sidious the news that the clone war has started............ O-kay, Count Dooku was the first one who made it back to Coruscant, he got there before the Jedi, man that Solar Sailor is fast!

    The scene then cuts to Yoda, Obi-1 & Mace on Coruscant in the Jedi temple. Yes, you see now. Time has passed. The Jedi had to gather up all their dead, gather all the clonetroopers, make sure that all the droid core ships were knocked out to stop all the droids, and then fly home. When they got home, they talk about how they didn't win the war.

    Now more time has passed, the sky is darker, and Palpatine is overlooking the clonetrooper army on Coruscant.

    Did I help you out any? I hope you are not still confused, cause Palpatine & Darth Sidious are the same person.
  11. Nothlit Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2001
    Yeah, the rapid aging of Palpatine is the one thing I cannot reconcile yet. Although you can't really say for sure that Sidious is not aging as well...all you can ever see is his chin. ;)

    It doesn't seem likely to me that the Jedi will kill Palpatine (innocently or not) and then Sidious will take over, because in the OT he is referred to as Emperor Palpatine and not Darth/Emperor Sidious. I think it is more likely that a seamless transition will take place right under everyone's noses. Either Sidious will kill Palpatine and take his place secretly (if they are separate) or Sidious will cease to be known as Sidious and operate only as Palpatine (if they are the same person), but either way, it seems unlikely that the Jedi will ever know that Emperor Palpatine was once Darth Sidious, or else it would probably be mentioned in the OT.
  12. Boola Cronk Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 5, 1999
    star 2
    ObiDan, that databank entry proves nothing. It says that Palpatine becomes emperor, it never says that he is Sidious. If you have been following this thread you would see that the discussion was about the possibility of Palpatine being a clone of Sidious or twins working in tandem. How do you explain Palpatine and Sidious being on 2 opposite ends of the planet at the end of AOTC?

    If you are going by the fact that the Emperor and Sidious LOOK the same than that really is not enough to prove that they ARE the same, especially since one is referred to as emperor and the other Sidious. If you are going by the fact that they are both played by the same actor then that also is not enough proof. Example, Silas Carson plays both Nute Gunray AND Kiadi Mundi but there is no doubt in my mind that those 2 characters are indeed 2 different people in the movie.

    There is a reason why GL dropped the name Sidious into the mix and that was to create a mystery. If it wasnt a mystery then there wouldnt be such a huge debate about it. Im sure this will be one of the biggest revelations in EP3.

  13. Darth Sin Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 1999
    star 5
    I thought I would never say this; but after watching AOTC a few times, I actually entertained the thought that Palpatine and Sidious are not the same person. :_|

    So then I got to thinking how could this be if it were true. (I hate myself for thinking this way :()

    The argument I am going to use is based on the information given by the Kaminoans when it comes to cloning.

    Lama Su said "Clones can think creatively"

    By the way, the cloners have been doing this for centuries

    Lama Su said that the growth acceleration was necessary, or else it would take a mature clone a lifetime to grow. Now we can do it in half the time

    Lama Su said of the clones. "They are totally obedient" Also he said, "We modified their genetic structure to make them less indepedent than the original

    Lama Su also said of the clones, "Disciplined and yet with the ability to think creatively"

    Dex said of the Kaminoans, They're cloners. Good ones, too

    So what am I getting at from these words??

    There is the very remote possibility that Sidious could have had himself cloned in order to control the clone of himself.

    If Palpatine is a clone, then he would be able to think creatively. He would be totally obedient to Sidious, and he would be a very disciplined individual.

    But also, there is the subject of growth acceleration. The clones can be grown in half the time. Thus this is another reason Palpy could be the clone of Sidious, carrying out his desires.

    Anyway, I cannot believe I allowed myself to say all this, but the info from the cloners themselves could give credence to this popular belief by many on these boards.

    Lastly, cloning has been around for some time, and the Kaminoans have mastered it.


    Darth Sin! :cool:
  14. Mason Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 21, 2002
    star 1
    This was mentioned on Page 2, but bears repeating here, seeing as it appeared to be simply dismissed: Palpatine and Sidious are in two places at the same time. At the end of AotC, Dooku meets with Sidious on Coruscant (in the industrial section) while simultaneously, Palpatine is shown, along with several Senators, overseeing the loading of the clones on Kamino(not Geonosis). Now that's what I call a LARGE hint. Those clones were NOT on Coruscant, the balcony they stood on is the SAME balcony that Obi-Wan and the Kaminoan stood on when Taun-We(sp?) was showing him the clones. In addition, the two scenes in quesiton took place very close together, indicating that they occured simultaneously. This would appear to be some solid evidence supporting the theory that Palpy and Sidious are two seperate individuals (either clones or something else).
  15. ObiDanKenobi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 1
    Boola - I have been following this thread, I think that the explanation as to how they are 'in the same place at the same time' was good from tricky, it wasnt at the same time... Also I dont assume its the same person just cause its the sam actor, I even made that point earlier on this or another thread.

    I do have to say though that the databank does actually only say emperor palpatine and senator palpatine are the same.. not darth sidious, however I still think they are the same... but the clone theory isnt bad, I will think about it.
  16. DarthWaiter Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 1, 2001
    star 1
    As above...
    Two places at once?
    Dooku went to Coruscant...
    End of story...

    and time means nothing when you're cutting scenes..


    Palpatine becomes the Emperor...

    (I hate the EU canon debate, but )
    Read the first page of the original novel for STAR WARS...

    it's plain and simple..

  17. Wajas Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 15, 2001
    star 1
    From the official script...Dooku arrives on Coruscant at dawn...then we have the Jedi Council scenes at Sunset, then the clones being loaded into the transports also at sunset in Coruscant, as it says in the script.
    They are not two places at the same time...they're on the same planet at very different times...
    Just thought I might shoot down that one. ;)
  18. Saurion-Fett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 2001
    star 4
    I think Darth Sidious....is a Sith Lord who has survived the last thousand years by cloneing himself....I think Sifo Dyas is a Clone of Sidious who is killed by sidious when he needs his other clone palpatine to complete his part of the plan. Note the reason no one recognised them is because of the clone age difference. This is why we see such rapid ageing in palps....and the decay of the emperor
  19. Mason Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 21, 2002
    star 1
    The clones are NOT being loaded on Coruscant! Go, see the movie again, and pay particular attention to the scene when Obi-Wan looks out over the clones from the 'balcony' with Taun-We....then look at the end of the movie when Palpatine and the senators are looking out as the clones board their ships...SAME balcony, same architecture, indicating that it is on the same planet: Kamino. So I severely doubt that Palpatine was on Coruscant and then flew, with the senators, to Kamino by sunset to oversee the loading of the clones.

    There's the rub: those two scenes are on different planets, Coruscant and Kamino, which have been established as being pretty far apart. Don't tell me I am the only one who sees this?
  20. DarthWaiter Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 1, 2001
    star 1
    I think I'm gonna puke now.
    Watch you're feet!
  21. billydeewilliams Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 1
    Wow, finally this thread is getting interesting, i never thought thought i'd hear DarthSin actually CONSIDERING this whole thoery. Watch out my friend, your becoming a convert. And you know what, you make some really, really, compelling points. It's like GL is dropping breadcrumbs behind him, leading us to the truth. Maybe.

    ObiDanKenobi, your point about about the website and whatever it does or does not say.

    My response is this (and i have made it a number of times.)

    If the web had been around in 1977, and you had looked at Vader's profile, do you really think it would have said: 'Anakin Skywalker, fallen Jedi, Luke's father.' ??

    Of course not, it would have ruined everything.
  22. Mason Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 21, 2002
    star 1
    BillyDee, I like a lot of your ideas...especially the duality one.

    Here's a thought worth mentioning(if it hasn't been already): When has Lucas tossed out a name to 'us', one that causes a particularly important event, and NOT come back and substantiated that name with a real person, or a reason for it even being mentioned(for that matter)? He hasn't.

    For that reason alone, one individual in EpIII will be shown as having at least two names (their duality), with one being Sifo-Dyas. ...and I think we all agree that if this happens, then it will likely be a force using individual.

    In the SW universe, I can't remember ONE instance where something was tossed out there, with major implications, just for the heck of it.
  23. jedi_vadar Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    I wanted to mention something that I find interesting about this and another thread talking about the same thing...everyone who believes that Palpatine and Sidious are the same person (with a few noted exceptions) blindly believes the whole thing and almost seems pissed off that someone would think it isn't true....so how can the revelation that Sidious and Palpatine are the same person be a surprise? Maybe to Obi-Wan and the Jedi, but the movies aren't made for them, they're made for the fans -- working it out so that they are different (because none of the theories mentioned here are near solid) would be a surprise, and something to look forward to in a movie where the ending is predetermined.
  24. Wajas Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 15, 2001
    star 1
    Mason, mate, it's in the script. It's irrefutable evidence man...the fact that it's obviously Coruscant because all the politicians there...and the timeline is explained in the script. You're clutching at straws here...Palps and Sid are the same guy methinks.
  25. LUKESLEEPWALKER Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 1, 2002
    Like I HAVE SAID BEFORE.....THE "CLONES"THAT THE TITLE (ATTACK OF THE CLONES)REFER TO ARE PALPATINE AND SIDIOUS,JANGO/BOBA FETT AND YES I AM YELLING!!!!!!!!
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