Palpatine and Sidious - New Ideas.

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by billydeewilliams, May 19, 2002.

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  1. Sergeant_Steiner Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2002
    star 1


    I think that only 4 people will know by the end of Ep 3 that Palpatine is actually Darth Sideous ....Vader, Yoda, Obi-Wan and Palpatine himself of course. Palpatine will be forced to reveal himself as Darth Sideous to Obi-Wan inorder to rescue Anakin.

    There is a lot of evidence to support that Darth Sideous continues to disguise himself as Palpatine right up to the moment he arrives on Death Star 2.

    1.Leia tells Darth Vader that the Emperor will not be impressed when he finds out that Vader has attacked a ship on a Diplomatic Mission. I doubt she would be so assured if she knew the Emperor was actually a Dark Lord of the Sith.

    2. The senate although powerless is still in existence at the start of Ep 4. What would be the point of keeping up the pretense of a democracy if everyone knew you were a Dark Lord.

    3. Yoda warns Luke not to underestimate the powers of the Emperor or suffer his father's fate he will. Yoda knows who Palpatine really is but obviously the Emperor is considered to be an ordinary man .. a politician...it is not widely known that he is in fact a Dark Lord.

    4. The General who pokes fun at the force in front of Vader on board Death Star 1 surely would not have done so if he knew his Commander in Chief was also a Dark Lord of the Sith.




  2. skywalkersound Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 16, 2001
    star 3
  3. JackGreen Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 1
    Seargent Steiner just blew my mind.
  4. Boola Cronk Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 5, 1999
    star 2
    Sargeant Steiner, where have you been?? All the sudden you pop up with those very excellent points. Havent really thought about that at all.
  5. Beannaeb Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 13, 2002
    star 3
    Don't forget Tarkin's comment to Vader - telling him that the Jedi's fire has gone out of the universe and he is all that's left of their religion. Could this mean that even Tarkin doesn't even know that the Emperor is a Dark Lord of the Sith?

    However, I have my doubts about this because in Episode 6, the Emperor arrives on the Death Star 2 with several hundred officers and stormtroopers on hand listening to his and Vader's LOUD discussion about turning Luke to the Dark Side of the Force. Either he had revealed himself between Episodes 4 and 6 or they knew all along, or he jsut didn't care about the charade anymore.
  6. Boola Cronk Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 5, 1999
    star 2
    thats what Steiner said in his post. Most likely he revealed himself as he came out of the shuttle on DS2. And all the stormtroopers and everyone are like: 'What the....who the heck does the Emperor think he is some sort of monk??'



  7. Sergeant_Steiner Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2002
    star 1


    5. Remember the Emperor's comment when he is laying into Luke with the lightening bolts 'young fool only know do you understand'. Up to that point Luke's attention has been focused on the redemption of his father but now he realises the true nature of the relationship between his father and the Emperor.

  8. Boola Cronk Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 5, 1999
    star 2
    OOOOOH! Good one! I just got chillbumps on that one. That scene now has a whole new meaning for me at least.

    Those are great points, but still it doesnt prove or disprove the controvery of Palp=Sid



  9. darthcois Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 1
    I'm not entirely convinced that the Padme/Queen Amidala decoy is a reoccurring theme as suggested here.
    Queen Amidala using a decoy is of course to protect her from assination. BUT what is most important is her exploring Tatooine, and spending time with Anakin!
  10. taeseesiin Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 1
    Ok, I've heard good arguments on both sides of this Palpatine/ Sidious issue and I admit that the theory that they are twins is not a bad one, especially considering the Roman legend which I was previously unaware of. I wouldn't be surprised if that isn't where GL got most or all of his idea for SW, but I think that within the movies themselves, there is more than enough evidence that they are the same person. I will allow that GL could just be trying really hard to make us believe that so that we will truly be shocked in episode 3. The biggest problem I have with them being twins or clones though, is that it just doesn't fit the overall story. I mean think about it; you would have to have them both with the same goal, working together, yet we know that there is only one emperor. The explanation that Palp is the clone or twin that is not force powered and that is why the council can't detect his true intentions is an inadequate explanation. If Palp wasn't the one powerful in the force he would be unable to prevent the Jedi from sensing his true thoughts and motivations, besides which, Yoda's statements in the movies make it very clear that the dark side is hard to see and clouds everything. If Palp is in fact the one who is powerful in the dark side, then it makes a separate Sidious unnecessary and inefficient. The third possibility is that They are twins or clones that are both powerful Sith, but that would violate the rule of two in terms of Sith (although there can be more than two dark side users, there cannot be more than two sith at a time, which is why maul had to die at the end of ep. 1 to make room for dooku). And that would mean that there are currently more than two Sith (Palps and his supposed "brother" Sidious and Darth Tyrannus/Dooku. The whole argument that Palps and Sid are two people just doesn't remain logically consistent in the final analysis.
  11. Wewbacca_the_chookie Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 19, 2001
    star 1
    STAR WARS DATABASE:

    Palpatine is listed as being 1.73 meters tall

    Sidious is listed as being 1.78 meters tall



    Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.....
  12. taeseesiin Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 1
    Screw the database. The difference in height could be a mere typo or simply forgetfulness on the author(s) part. It could also be an apparent difference in height that the hood on the robe gives him. I'm referring to consistently logical reasoning based on the content of the movies alone, not some niggly crap someone wrote about them.
  13. TheJediTiger Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2002
    The Star Wars saga uses so many aliases. Padme uses the alias Sabe for protection. Dooku goes by Darth (Lord) Tyranus when with the Sith but by Count Dooku (his Jedi order name) to almost everyone else, Jango Fett may be an exception. The Supreme Chancellor goes by Palpatine to everyone but the Sith where his name is Sidious. Even Obi-Wan goes by Ben later in life.

    I think that Sidious=Palpatine for this reason, and I don't think Lucas would throw something that twisted out there just for the heck of it. I have an open mind though because anything could happen.
  14. Maverick1115 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2002
    star 3
    Just wanted to let you know you hit the fallen Jedi thing on the nose...Lucas made a comment about the man leading the opposition form the get go was a fallen Jedi.
  15. Mason Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 21, 2002
    star 1
    To address the individual saying that I was clutching at straws: Palpatine and the Senators, regardless of what the script MAY say, are on the same balcony that Obi-Wan stood on overlooking the clones. This balcony is on Kamino. The architecture, surroundings, everything, appear identical to when Obi-Wan was overlooking the clones. Watch the movie again and you will see. Noone is arguing that Sidious was on Coruscant, but would it make ANY sense, whatsoever, to have ALL of the clones fly to Coruscant, just to get into formation and march onto other ships? No. What makes sense is that Palpatine and the supporting senators traveled WITH the ships to Kamino and oversaw the loading of the rest of the clones onto them.

    I am planning to see AotC yet again in order to make certain of my theory that they are indeed on Kamino while the clones are loading, but I already know that unless Coruscant has an area in it with the EXACT SAME architecture as Kamino(or I am completely crazy), overlooking a landing/ boarding area, then they are indeed on Kamino. Clutching at straws? I think not, my good friend.
  16. Darth_OlsenTwins Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    Mason, what the heck are you talking about? It is more than obvious that they are on Coruscant. The lighting, architecture, and the background are consistent with CORUSCANT. The fact that its not raining and the whole planet is not an ocean would give that away

    Also the balcony on Kamino is indoors. They are outdoors.

    ???
  17. Boola Cronk Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 5, 1999
    star 2
    Mason you had at me at first but I have to agree with Olsen on this.
  18. Mason Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 21, 2002
    star 1
    As I said, I may indeed be completely off my rocker, and that is why I am going to see AotC again this weekend(4$ matinees..yippee!), although I hadn't thought of the 'indoors' part, the balconies(sp?) look IDENTICAL. I honestly thought(still think, although you raise VERY good points) they are indeed in two places simultaneously. If I discover I am wrong, I will be the first to post a retraction here....just as I did when I first saw AotC and said I was disappointed....after my second viewing I realized how good it really is.

    ..and I still believe that Palpy/Sidious/Emperor are two seperate entities...if for no other reason than the fact that it is TOO obvious that Lucas wants us to think they are the same person.
  19. Darth_OlsenTwins Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    Mason, Im not trying to bash. But...

    If it is toooo obvious then he sure did his job by fooling lots of people in this thread. By not directly showing that Palpy=Sid, GL has got us wondering, doesn't he. I, for one, will be grossly disappointed if Palpy and Sid are not the same person.
  20. Mason Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 21, 2002
    star 1
    I don't understand why it would be disappointing. Wouldn't it make for a good twist? I mean, everyone 'KNOWS' that they are the same person...it is being hand-fed to us..and THAT is one of my storngest arguments for them to be two seprate individuals: it is TOOO cut and dried, too simple. Nothing GL has done in his movies concerning characters has been this simple, there has ALWAYS been a twist. ..and Palpatine being 'revealed' as Sidious would not be much of a 'revelation' to anyone who even remotely pays attention to the films.

    Maybe I'm just cynical in my old age, but I am always suspicious of the 'obvious' when it comes to movies, especially ones that are known to throw you the preverbial 'curve', like SW is.

    If I am wrong, so be it, but there is enough anecdotal, circumstantial evidence to raise the shadow of a doubt in my mind, and THAT, my friend, is enough for me to seriously question whether the idividual(s) in question are, indeed, one and the same. Let the debate rage on!
  21. Darth_OlsenTwins Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    I disagree, it would be a HUGE revelation to the characters in the movies if Palpy turned out to be Sid. Dramatically speaking and considering the characters' involvement in the plot, it is the best thing that will happen, dramatically speaking. Drama isnt created simply for the audience but the audience's reaction to the characters' situations.
  22. heywhynot Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2002
    Based on all the talk about Palpatine/Emperor/Darth Sidious, decided to check out the Star Wars website, character database (http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/).

    The character databank on Palpatine clearly states that he will be the Emperor & his dark side pupil will be Vader. The expanded universe section recalls some interesting (possible) facts about him. It is the section in which he is clearly stated as being a Sith practitioner (in the movie section it is only listed as an affiliation he had). The dark side while powerful destroys his body. As such he makes clones of himself & using Sith magics transfers his mind into a clone to keep on going.

    Darth Sidious is another entry, where it is implied in the last line that he has another indentity. Nothing really much is added.

    I fully expect to find Sidious and Palpatine are one in the same. The twin aspect implied by the Palpatine name being more metaphoric than the two being actual twins.

    The Sith mind jumping trick in the expanded universe is not limited to clones as Palpatine tries to enter/takeover Anakin Solo's body. Sidious might of jumped from body to body for an eon since the last Sith was thought to have been exterminated. Waiting for the right moment to strike. Being patient, slowly undermining the Jedi & the Republic. As Yoda noted many Jedi had become arrogant, influenced by a Sith hidden amongst the Jedi?

    Sidious might of been Sifo Dyas, a Jedi. His last act in the body was to order the clones to be made. The body reaching a stage it could no longer last (or the effects of the dark side are too visible) and/or the time was right to make another switch. Sideous jumps to Palpatine (or a clone of him) right before the events of the Phantom Menance. The time being right to set in motion the chain reaction that will allow him revenge on the Jedi. Palpatine being the perfect vehicle to takeover the Republic.

    Now that is a little complicated, but would not be surprise me. Another possibility is that Palpatine grew up hidden from the Jedi Council by the Sith. Palpatine eventually learning the ways of the dark side & Sith magics, taking over as the master. Then setting in motion the chain of events unfolding in the current triology.

    I also like to point out that it might seem obvious that Palpatine is the Emperor before his rise & therefore might be Darth Sidious, you have to remember that we are big time Star Wars fans. Casual fans I know did not think about, nor had they realized it. When I pointed it out after they viewed PM, they liked what Lucas was doing. What may not shock us, might be shocking to the wider audience. Just thought I would throw that out there
  23. Darth_OlsenTwins Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    That would be great if only Lucas could devote 2 hours to focus on Palpatine even though he is not the number one focus of the storyline.
  24. WelshBob Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2002
    They can't be on Kamino at the end, because it isnt raining. The script and the actual film show that it is on Coruscant and several hours after Sideous met Count Duckula in the industrial zone.

    And the Chancellor DOES have force powers, as indicated at the start of the film when he reads Padme's mind.
  25. jedi_vadar Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    I don't think it's conclusive that he read Padme's mind -- he could just be completing her sentence, you don't need to read minds to predict what the characters are going to say.

    Although I think the ending is up for debate (could it have been inside?) I think of the biggest problems with the Sid=Palp theory is that how on earth would he manage to get away from his duties. He would literarly have to duck out the back.

    However, regardless, that moment at the end could also be several days later, so I don't think it's a good argument for the Palp and Sidious are different people theory.
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