Palpatine and Sidious - New Ideas.

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by billydeewilliams, May 19, 2002.

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  1. Arkalius Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 27, 2002
    Lots of interesting stuff here, though I still believe Sidious and Palpatine are the same person. There's nothing to say that the end scene with Palpatine and the Dooku/Sidious conversation occurs anywhere near the same time as each other. Whether or not they are on Kamino or Coruscant doesn't really matter either.

    To say Sidious and Palpatine are different people just because "it would be a good plot twist" is a bad reason. If you want to believe that, then at least come up with some evidence to support your belief, and some explanation about why the evidence that opposes your belief is insubstantial.

    You have to think of this issue from two sides... If these movies were made in order, we wouldn't have any foreknowledge to the fact that Sidious and Palapatine are the same person (though I'm sure we'd have many threads going about how that could be the case). That fact in and of itself would be a surprise to us when we saw Episode 3. Of course, since we have seen 4-6, the possibility that they are the same wouldn't be surprising-- in fact, the opposite would be the surprise. Remember, George Lucas didn't have the precise stories of the first 3 episodes laid out when he made the orignals, just general concepts. For example, I don't think Lucas had Qui-Gon Jinn as Obi-Wan's master. Obi-Wan says himself in ESB that Yoda was the Jedi Master who instructed him. Of course, this can be true even with Qui-Gon in the picture. Yoda instructs many Jedi Initiates before they become Padawan learners. (on that note, there's a terminoligy glitch in Ep 2, Yoda refers to one of the initiates as a "Padawan," which he probably isn't since he is being instructed by Yoda and looks a bit young to have been claimed yet). Anyway, I imagine as far as Palpatine goes, I don't think Lucas really had his backstory completely fleshed out when making the originals. The guy wasn't even in ANH, and only had a brief appearance as a hologram in ESB. So, anything can happen I suppose.

    Still, I feel Palpatine is Sidious. It makes more sense, and the fact that it would be less of a surprise than the other option is only the case because of the odd order of the films. It would still be a more interesting plot thread in my opinion.

    -Arkalius
  2. Mason Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 21, 2002
    star 1
    I always assumed that Palpatine was the Emperor, although recently I have had my doubts(at least after seeing AotC). Now, Sidious, THAT could be another story. Palpatine could indeed be the Emperor, but Sidious doesn't have to be. That would still fit into the established context of the story, as well as providing the 'duality' that BillyDee speaks of: Sifo-Dyas could have been Sidious BEFORE his 'fall' to the Dark side. I have other ideas bouncing around, but am currently too tired to think straight....
  3. The Force Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 14, 1999
    star 1
    I have adamantly argued that Palps=Sidious since I began spoiler hunting in 1999, before the release of TPM. The thought they were not the same person was a hilarious fanboy fantasy to me.

    But after seeing AOTC, and reading the novel, I am having doubts. I'm not certain one way or the other, but logic does seem to point to them being one and the same.

    However, AOTC ends with Sidious and Palpatine seemingly in two different places. I understand time could have passed between scenes. But what throws me for a loop is the sunset. Dooku lands in the warehouse district while the sun is setting, and meets Sidious. Palpatine is at the staging area during sunset. There is no evidence that they are on different days. I don't know where the warehouses are, but I would not expect them to be close enough for him to travel to the staging area during the same sunset. Twilight is a very short time (on Earth, anyway).

    If Palps=Sidous, why show both characters at sunset? Why not show Dooku at sunset and the military at night? Or show Dooku arriving at night after Palpatine was at the military base at sunset?
  4. Tricky Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 26, 2001
    star 5
    I just needed to post this again, now read it & use some common sense, puh-leeze.

    So you think that You saw Palpatine & Darth Sidious at 2 different places at the same time on Coruscant?

    The first was when Count Dooku rushed away from Geonosis to immediately give Darth Sidious the news that the clone war has started............ O-kay, Count Dooku was the first one who made it back to Coruscant, he got there before the Jedi, man that Solar Sailor is fast!

    The scene then cuts to Yoda, Obi-1 & Mace on Coruscant in the Jedi temple. Yes, you see now. Time has passed. The Jedi had to gather up all their dead, gather all the clonetroopers, make sure that all the droid core ships were knocked out to stop all the droids, and then fly home. When they got home, they talk about how they didn't win the war.

    Now more time has passed, the sky is darker, and Palpatine is overlooking the clonetrooper army on Coruscant.

    Did I help you out any? I hope you are not still confused, cause Palpatine & Darth Sidious are the same person.
  5. Disco_Dooku Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 1, 2002
    star 2
    Try:

    Dooku arrives on Coruscant at SUNRISE.

    Palaptine stands before the Army at SUNSET.
  6. JarJar_istheone Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    I would like to see a twist in ep3 regarding palp. I dont think the last two episodes have been as fun as the OT. The plot just plods along without anything fresh. Palpatine is one of the only characters Ive enjoyed in ep1, and 2. I just want to have more surprises in ep3. QuiGonJohn raised some good points about possible dark secrets that Yoda and Mace could be hiding. Windu himself seems to be slightly suspicious. I'd like to think that GL doesnt use dialouge that doesn't mean anything. I think he does things for a reason, and has had a lot of fun with foreshadowing in the first two ep. I think the fact that palp= sid seems so obvious, yet it has not been absolutly confirmed is pretty shady. GL could have confirmed to the audience they are the same person without letting the SW characters know. Its like a rule in comics. Unless you actually SEE the character totally DEAD, you cannot assume he is. Thanks for the thought Billie Dee
  7. Disco_Dooku Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 1, 2002
    star 2
    I posted this is another thread but I think it applies here as well:

    Ok, I have something that may or my not prove that Palpatine=Sidious. I read in this thread or another, I am not sure, that TPM DVD mentions something difinitive about Sidious=Emperor Palpatine.

    On TPM DVD audio commentary GL states that he wanted to introduce Darth Sidious as a hologram because he wanted to maintain a thematic device that he first created in ESB. GL states that we see Darth Sidious the same way we saw HIM in ESB, as a hologram. That seems pretty clear cut and supports billydeewilliams duality theory.

    Now we have these equations:

    Senator Palpatine = Emperor Palpatine (GL and TOS)
    Darth Sidious = Emperor Palpatine (GL on TPM DVD)

    Using the math rule (I forget the actual name) A=B, B=C, then A must equal C. Right?

    Therefore, if:
    Sen. Palpatine (A)= Emperor Palpatine (C)
    Darth Sidious (B) = Emperor Palpatine (C)

    Then Sen. Palpatine (A) MUST equal Darth Sidious (B)

    Follow that? Any holes?
  8. Saurion-Fett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 2001
    star 4
    I think palpatine is a clone of Sidious.....I think Sidious will replace Palps with only the major players knowing.

    Also I think Sifo Dyas was a clone of Sidious also....But were at different drowth rates so the two would no be put together.


    Darth Sidious kills his own clones using them a pawns.....This is why yoda can not sense the dark side in palps...because he has no force powers ......
  9. jedi_vadar Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    Disco Dooku your math would work fine for numbers -- however, lets say we use non-numbers:

    Yoda=Jedi Master
    Syfo-Dyus=Jedi Master

    So does that mean Yoda=Syfo-Dyus? I'm not saying you are 100% wrong, but the whole point of this discusion is that we can't prove that Sid=Palpatine and that there's a possibility that Lucas will seperate them in Episode III. The trouble is that all the proof's are things like this not direct. If one single time we had some piece of evidence directly linking Sidious and Palpatine this whole argument might go away, but I have yet to see one.
  10. Jone_Wan_Kenobi Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 19, 2002
    What about the 'Palpy' page in the databank on the starwars.com site? Surely the image on the left hand is the Emperor from OT, and the image in the article itself is Palpatine from AOTC/TPM? If you look at the affiliation list, you'll se Sith listed. Also...as Weapon: Dark-side lighting...I rest my case..
  11. Jone_Wan_Kenobi Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 19, 2002
    Sorry about the spelling and all in the last post, I was in a bit of a hurry. But I think there could be no doubt that Palp - Sid is the same.

    http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/palpatine/index.html
  12. jedi_vadar Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    Therin lies the problem with the database, it's been used as an argument for and against this theory. For one, yes it does list Senator Palpatine as Emperor Palpatine, but it also does not list Sidious under the same name -- in fact not once does it mention Sidious or Palapatine in either summary. It also lists different heights for them. Keep in mind also that the database could be edited by some nobody -- someone who watches the movies and extract information -- Lucas may not even know what's there.
  13. fateduel Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2001
    star 1
    i was just looking for myself at the two entries for sidious and palpy in the databank on the official site
    very interesting
    palpy's entry gives no hint that sideous and palpy even know eachother let alone are eachother
    but sideous's had this one part in it that made me think
    "Throughout the invasion, Sidious was manipulating both ends, egging on the normally non-confrontational Neimoidians into combat, and somehow stalling procedures in the senate to keep the Republic from interfering."
    obviously sideous and palpy are meant to be one and the same. They both gain from all they do. Its all a big scheme to give palpy what he wants. I mean look hes on all sides until hes just in the right position and he takes it all over. The way hes got things planned im thinking he knew who anni was. He knew what was going on the whole time and he was just playing the game til it backfired on him with anni's redemption.
    so i dont see any good evidence that sideous and palpy arent one and the same.
  14. DARTH_GEMINIUS Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 22, 2002
    All of those who think that Palpy is NOT Sidious are missing a pivotal scene in AOTC.. the part where Palpatine talks to Anakin, pampering his ego and telling him how he sees him becoming the greatest of all jedi, the way he walks, the way Anakin reveres him, the way Palpatine places his hand as he walks... just that scene entirely, would be completely pointless if Palpatine was NOT Sidious. Sidious is Palpatine, the only difference is that Sidious is his Sith name.

    Also, back in TPM, when Nute Gunray asks Sidious if the blockade is legal.. to which Sidious responds; "I Will make it legal..."

    Its all very logical, and very thoughtful. Plus, Ian McDiarmid practically told me. :)

    Ant.
  15. Madame_Jocasta_Nu Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2001
    star 1
    Jedi_vadar,

    Disco_Dooku's formula isn't mathematical and used for numbers, it belongs to Logic.

    He got it right, it's your own example that is not constructed correctly. You can't use it like you did, there is more than one Jedi Master! You only prove that if Yoda and Sifo-Dyas aren't the same person, then there must be more that one Jedi Master. Which is true.

    Disco_Dooku's equation is sound. To reject it, you can only say that Lucas lied and there are not one but two Emperors after the prequels since Lucas identified Sidious as the ESB Emperor and Palpatine as the OT Emperor.

    Now, that is the most STUPID hypothesis of all - it would mean one "Palpatine" survived ROTJ and it completely ruins the whole saga and Anakin bringing balance back to the Force by getting rid of evil in the Universe (Lucas' own explanation of Balance).

    So, Darth Sidious IS Palpatine.

    Twice Lucas has said before that Sidious will become Emperor in episode III (the DVD and another quote from the time of TPM where he said that in the last molvie Sidious will take over the galaxy, become Emperor and control everything). Elsewhere he has said many times that Palpatine will become Emperor in episode III.

    They are the same person or there are two Emperors.

    Clearly enough, Lucas uses the names Sidious and Palpatine indifferently, depending how he feels that day. To him they are the same character, like he uses the names Padmé and Amidala indifferently, like he uses Vader and Anakin.

    Why does he keep it "secret"? Ian McDiarmid said it best, all this mystery SERVES the character who is a mysterious, deceitful and shadowy evil guy. If you expose everything about Palpatine already, you spoil this effect even though the audience has figured it out by now, they have not seen it in action, and neither did the heroes of the story.

    About the theory that the "Padmé / decoy" theme is not echoed in the OT I disagree totally. The decoy / disguise theme is all over the place in ROTJ. Don't you remember Leia / Boushh and Chewie passing for her prisonner? Lando infiltrating the palace as a guard? The droids being infiltrated as "gifts"?

    Palpatine/Sidious rather belongs to the dual identity thematic.

    Dooku=Tyranus
    Anakin=Vader
    Ben=Obi-Wan
    Sidious=Palpatine
    Padmé=Amidala

    Palpatine will keep his name but look openly like Sidious.

    Padmé and Queen Amidala are for now merged as Senator Padmé Amidala

    Darth Vader will loose everything of Jedi Anakin Skylwalker, the look, the face, the voice, the name, the family, the friends..


  16. marcus-prime Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    Dear Friends...

    On the Palpatine/Sidious issue, my POV goes something like this: Palpatine *IS* Sidious. Why? It makes sense. It would be pointless to build up this huge, mysterious villain in ANH, TESB, and ROTJ, to only have them end up being someone else. The Emperor's lines from ROTJ reveal that it was by his design that everything has transpired, and that he taunts Luke that he is mistaken about a great many things. The Emperor boldy states that he allowed the Alliance to know all about Death Star 2. As a Senator, he reveals to the Naboo Government about the negotiations with the TF and the Jedi. Well Valorum sent them there secretly, how else to did Palpatine know. Furthermore, being in the public eye still requires Palpatine to be Palpatine, but once he cements his hold on power, he can fade into isolation as Darth Sidious. Also, Yoda begins to tune into something not being right with Palpatine when Padme's committee comes to see the SC.

    As for Anakin's fall, it's simple: The Jedi Council will sense that Anakin is being seduced by the dark side, and that Padme's attachment to him puts the Republic and the whole galaxy in danger. Yoda, Mace, and ObiWan convince the Senator to go into hiding to protect everyone. The plan goes into action, but Dooku reappears and taunts Anakin that Jedi arrogance has interfered with his marriage and that is because the Sith control the Republicand that Palpatine is in danger, meanwhile Dooku and Sid use an accelerated plan to turn Anakin over, and of course you know the rest...

    If Anakin went postal over Tusken Raiders over his mother, I wonder what he'll do when the Jedi conceal his wife...?

    MP
  17. jedi_vadar Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    Exactly as you said, all my argument proves is that there could be multiple Jedi Masters. There could also be multiple identities of the Emperor...the clone fits in this perfectly. Sidious may be the Emperor, and Senator Palapatine's identity may be what the world percieves that the emperor is. Writing it out doesn't logically prove anything -- you just can't do that.

    If they are most definitely one in the same, why doesn't Lucas come out and say it? Why keep up all the mystery? Why don't we have conclusive proof -- he keep throwing big things out there that seem to indicate that Sidious and Palpatine are one in the same, however, he just won't go that extra step and confirm it. The only reason I can think of, is because they aren't the same person. Do you really think in Episode III that it's going to be a huge revalation that they are one in the same. No one would care except the on screen characters -- and the movie isn't supposed to entertain them. Ultimately Episode III will be all about the Journey, and how the Empire arises -- Lucas knows that the entire Audience is well aware of how the movie ends, and is going to make the film towards that end (and no they are not meant to be viewed from Episode I-VI). Which means there has to be something left for us to discover -- with the introduction of Syfo-Dyus, we have to assume that it will be one of the things we discover, why else introduce him.

    Now I could be wrong, no one knows what is in Lucas's head, but I think we at least need to be open to the fact that they may not be one in the same -- it's certainly not been proven...
  18. Lars_Lars Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2002
    I posted this on another thread...to try and clarify how to distinguish information from sources other than the movies.

    OK...
    Just a few things to get us started again. Arguments based on sources other than the movies themselves should be discounted as second hand information. Like hearing an event through someone else mouth. Everyone who writes anything about star wars who isn't GL himself (and even GL until its on film before us in theaters)...is nothing more than a second hand source. Even the novelizations of the movies are filled with discrepancies. If you take an event and have four people witness it, you will get four different interpretations of what happened (just like our arguments here), therefore the only source that can be used to support or discount any theory is the actual events themselves. Period. Basing conjecture on the "theory" of "force emminations" is going outside actual events to information that is provided by someone other than the primary source. Where in the movies does it say that there must be some way to detect the force...nowhere, but there are several instances of a person not being sensed, that's a fact. Same thing with the 1.73 vs. 1.78 meter theory. TOS is full of information to enhance the primary source, ie the films. It is not there to replace the primary source. Plus most of that is just written by the "geeks" (no offense) so that people who actually care how tall someone is in a movie won't wet themselves trying to figure it out by counting pixels from the bottom of the screen multiplying that by the angle of the camera and comparing that to a table top height...blah blah blah blah. Anything in books taking place after ROTJ can be discounted entirely. GL may have "officially sanctioned" books that came later, but he in no way is bound to their information...at all! GL could tell everyone in any interview he gives that they are the same person (palp/sid)...until it is shot digitally and placed before us in 2005, we have nothing but speculation either way...(remember he wasn't sure in the original films if 1. Darth Vader was really going to be Luke's father, and if 2. Leia and Luke were going to be related). He can say whatever he wants anytime before the movies and you can look at it and say "that's nice". Until you see it...it ain't the truth...ie the primary source. Drop all the EU right out of this discussion...it has no bearing whatsoever...it enhances, it does not replace.

    Just my thoughts.
    -LL
  19. darth-sauld Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2002
    You guys... he's called Emperor Palpatine for a reason.
  20. Boola Cronk Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 5, 1999
    star 2
    Madame Jocasta, those are good points. I am going to have to look at the DVD again. Personally I cannot make a decision either way right now as both sides have very good arguments. At the end of TPM I was so sure that Sid=Palp but now after watching AOTC it seems that the direction is trying to get us to second guess ourselves.
  21. PROJECTFUZZ Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    HEY -Does anyone know where this roman legend is ? I want to check it out and I cant find it.
  22. Wajas Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 15, 2001
    star 1
    They're referring I think to Romulus and Remus. Twin brothers (raised by she-wolf) when they are older they come to the area of Rome. Each starts building his city on different hills. Romulus on Palatine (not Palpatine as someone said), he's building his dinky little wall and Remus comes over, mocking it, and jumps over it. Romulus doesn't take kindly and kills him with a shovel. The founding of Rome ladies and gents...
  23. QA-Kenobi Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2002
    Hey all- I'm new here so bear with me.

    Did anyone notice the scene in TPM where Sidious and Darth Maul are walking on the Balcony on Coruscant? If you look at some scenes from Senator Palpy's Apartment it appears to be the same Balcony that is outside his window. I think that could be a clue that they are actually the same person.

    Just a thought.
  24. Mason Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 21, 2002
    star 1
    Almost all concrete evidence points to Palpatine being Sidious, the 'Palpatine is NOT Sidious' faction are trying to think 'outside the box' and look at how events could unfold and reveal that one of them might be a clone of the other.

    If you look at most of the names of the films, more than one meaning can be interpreted. .."A New Hope": Luke represents the new 'hope'. Artoo carrying the plans for the DS could constitute new 'hope' for the rebellion. Enlisting a former Jedi(Obi-Wan) could be a new 'hope' as well. After the OT, A New Hope could mean new hope for the Jedi, as a whole.

    Empire Strikes Back: The obvious: the Empire strikes back at the rebels on Hoth. Vader gets another crack at the heroes who destroyed the Death Star. Probably the most 'cut and dried' of the SW titles.

    Return of the Jedi: The Jedi order experiencing a 'return' in the form of Luke Skywalker. ..or..the 'return' or Jedi Knight Anakin Skywalker from his 'dark' side. More of a stretch: the return of several Jedi as spirits after death(Yoda, Obi, and Anakin).

    All of the titles of the original three movies can be interpreted as having more than one meaning....continue this to the Prequel Trilogy:

    The Phantom Menace: The obvious one; Sidious being behind the plot against Naboo. Palpatine manipulating the Senate workings to garner more power. Maul not being identified as a Sith until the end could be considered a bit of a 'Phantom Menace'. Also, the fact that the Trade Federatio was a front for a more sinister plot indicates a 'phantom menace'.

    Attack of the Clones: Waaaay too obvious: the clones 'attacking' Geonosis to save the Jedi(I don't think this is the real meaning of the title..as the clones weren't so much 'attacking' as defending the republic with a preemptive strike). Digging beyond the obvious: If Palpatine is a clone of Sidious(or vice-versa), it gives more meaning to the title, in a less literal sense. It also introduces more of a twist to the title "Phantom Menace"(even we, the fans, will have been duped), as the menace we all thought: Palpatine, turns out to be a bit of a decoy, masking the real one.

    Of all of the titles(except possibly ESB), Attack of the Clones appears to have the most cut and dried title, indicating to me that we may be missing something. I am thinking that clones will be involved in more than we originally thought, whether it be Palpatine or something else. When thinking about BillyDees' 'duality theory', one could apply it to the titles of the movies as well as the participants themselves. Any other thoughts?
  25. clay_windu Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2002
    star 1
    Here is a new idea for you guys. The evil looking cloud of energy that was released from palpls in ROTJ could be the darth sidious himself. The evil incarnation entered the body of palpatine taking over the galaxy when he becomes emperor. What is this cloud of energy?
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