Characters Palpatine characterization thread: UP FOR ADOPTION!

Thanks for the links lazykybys! And I'll have to check out your fics, I've been enjoying Fires of Rebellion.

You're right Kyn How could I forget the Dark Empire series! And who could resist defeating the Sith by first hand knowledge

Very interesting question LLL about the origins of Palpatine. I have Apprentice Sidious so firmly rooted in my brain that it will probably take me awhile to come up with another answer. But there are so many possibilities and I'm looking forward to reading.

In Apprentice Sidious, Palpatine's mother is inadvertantly killed by a Jedi (who is not portrayed in a good light) And Palpatine is taken on by a Sith teacher. I could see him being trained at a young age, and I think the teacher would be cruel, much crueler than in Apprentice to make him what he is and without remorse.

He probably did not know love at all growing up, it was all power and become what you are capable of. Probably very abusive, is how I see it, probably some way the Sith have of training their young apprentices.

Anyway, excellent question LLL, and I'm enjoying reading your takes on this.

 

@ Kynstar:

Oh boy! Stories I haven't read yet! Can't wait to dig into those!

Ditto!!

And that post has TOO many plot bunnies in it.

Thanks to all the ppl who are posting links. Put the word out ... anyone with a Palpatine story, please post a link to it here!!!!

(If I ever decide to write down my entire Life of Palpatine, I'll want to read and think about all of them before I set everything down in stone.)

I'm in the middle of my Palpatine/Dooku scene now. I may post it up here for you fellow Palpites to critique. I used to use my writer's group, but this audio drama has so much SW minutiae in it that they won't be able to follow it. The last one had a story you could follow whether you remember why Nubia is important or not.

*starts thinking about the scene where Palpatine recruited Dooku (not in the audio drama, but compelling nonetheless!!)*

***And you CAN'T tell me they actually expect us to believe Liam Neeson as Qui-Gon Jinn was REALLY 60. Come on!! (snorts)

Pokey: Maybe the best way for you to start is to consider what kind of story you are trying to write. What do you need Palpy to do? And then work back from there.

 

Great to see all those Palpatine stories listed! I had no idea there were so many.

Have to go do some reading...

 

***And you CAN'T tell me they actually expect us to believe Liam Neeson as Qui-Gon Jinn was REALLY 60. Come on!!

Ummm, I believe it. My dad is 84 and still plays softball 4 times a week and looks at least 10 years younger than he is. He frequently runs faster and longer than men in their 50s. I've also met other people who look and act much younger than their actual age. So, yes, I can believe that Liam's Qui-Gon was 60.

but that is off-topic...

And now a question about Palpy's past. The Jedi seem to take babies and very young children to raise as their own. Yet, Palpy used both Dooku and Anakin and tried to use Luke as an apprentice from a much later time in their lives. Any speculation as to why?

 

Yet, Palpy used both Dooku and Anakin and tried to use Luke as an apprentice from a much later time in their lives. Any speculation as to why?

I'd think cuz they are already trained in the ways of the Force and were both wanting more than what the Jedi could provide. That alone put them up on a pedistal for Palps to gloat over. "Jedi auctions anyone?" Bwhahahaha!

Plus it saved him time and he did not have to 'break' another apprentice in. He had other 'plans' that were being put in place to spend time' breaking' in a 'fresh' one

 

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[b]dianethx:[/b]
The Jedi seem to take babies and very young children to raise as their own. Yet, Palpy used both Dooku and Anakin and tried to use Luke as an apprentice from a much later time in their lives. Any speculation as to why?[hr][/blockquote]A question of my own: how old are the Sith when they usually start their apprenticeship? All I know is that Darth Maul was raised by Sidious from when he was just a toddler ([random image]Sidious using the Force to change Maul's diapers.[/random image]). From a "brainwash 'em before they know any better" standpoint this makes sense, but to me it seems the risks of the apprentice getting [i]un[/i]brainwashed are too big. It's probably safer to start out with a Jedi (or a Force sensitive) who's dissatisfied with the way things are.

I wonder how old Sidious was when [i]he[/i] started training.


Side note:
If anyone wants the link to [b]Mina[/b]'s [i]About Turn[/i], PM me.

 

: The Jedi seem to take babies and very young children to raise as their own. Yet, Palpy used both Dooku and Anakin and tried to use Luke as an apprentice from a much later time in their lives. Any speculation as to why?

He did raise Maul from a very young age... but when Obi-Wan killed that apprentice, he needed another. Having already trained Maul from a young age, it may have been impatience that led him to take on a former Jedi as an apprentice.[/speculation]

 

I gotta disagree with the idea that an apprentice appropriated at an older age is safer than one you raised.

Look at all the kids who grow up to be hoods because of a bad childhood, and the number of marriages and family relationships that are messed up because of what people were raised with. Once there are raised-in defects in the personality -- and I know this both from reading and personal experience -- growing past them into a healthier self is the hardest sort of work.

 

This hit me last night:

I've had this plot bunny for ever so long:

The Sith masters have been stymied in finding the best Force-sensitive candidates for their apprentices, because of the dastardly Jedi habit of always getting there first.

So Palpatine's master, I've long held the idea, decided that one way around this was to send at least moderately Force-sensitive females to "just happen" to meet the most famous and talented Jedi, hopefully tempt them to stray from the straight and narrow, and thereby end up with apprentices descended from the most powerful Jedi bloodlines. He concentrated on finding the most beautiful women for himself, in hopes of having at least one or two beautiful daughters of Sith descent whom he could enlist in this.

Then somebody said Dooku was about 20 years older than Palpatine.

So, picture this: Palpatine's grandsire sends his most beautiful daughter sniffing around the Jedi temple for a maverick Jedi to ensnare, and nine months later she gives birth to Palpatine, whose father happens to be ...

Count Dooku????

 

LLL posted on 3/6/05 7:35pm

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This hit me last night:


So, picture this: Palpatine's grandsire sends his most beautiful daughter sniffing around the Jedi temple for a maverick Jedi to ensnare, and nine months later she gives birth to Palpatine, whose father happens to be ...

Count Dooku????



[hr][/blockquote]

Well, mind you, George has always said that Star Wars was a bit of a soap opera in space anyway... All my Twin Sons and the like, after all, I believe Dukoo is actually close to Palpatine's age anyway. George has stated that the Palpster is a regular human.

(Starts humming [i]It's a Small world after All[/i]... [face_wink] )

Anyway, I do digress.

I think too many fics treat Palpy as a 'Super villian'. You half expect to see our heros tied to the proverbial train tracks while the villian explains his grand plot to the audiance... (Wait, that was Dooku in Clones wasn't it?).

But in all seriousness, I like to see Palpy as the snake in the garden... he's cool, he's clever... he knows how to entice, saying the right thing at the right time. He's like a wisp of smoke, vanishing before the conflageration.... think of Randy Flagg in Stephen King's [u]The Stand[/u] (and [u]Eye of the Dragon[/u], both excellent reads).

I need to toodle off to work in a few, but I can't help to absolutely insist that people check out anything by [link=http://boards.theforce.net/user.asp?usr=716873]Geo3[/link]. Her stories portray Palpatine in such a way that he positivly [i]OOOOZes[/i]... you want to wash your hands after reading him. He's cold, calculating, and as needs call, utterly charming... He's just like oiled silk, that sheathes a deadly blade without an ounce of 'pork'... He never falls into the trap of 'Snidely Whiplash' either...

[face_devil]


[b]Geo[/b] should really write a 'Palpy 101', or perhaps that should read, Palpy 666....

 

Well in Jedi Skywalker, I'm showing how Palpy went from a rejected kid to a Sith Lord. Shmi's the one whose name is in the title, but Palpy plays a major role and I go into his head alot (more than Shmi in the beginning).

 

Dooku as Palps father?? Oh my goodness! Blasphemy!

sorry I couldn't help the blasphemy part!

Palps was 50 during TPM, Qui was 60. If Dooku was Qui's Master he had to be older than Qui. Soooo the possibility could be there....but oh my goodness!! Juz the thought! *shudders* Poor Dooku...

Well if he is Dooku's whelp... well he must have gotten the height from his mom!

Great bunnie though, I got to admit. Hmmmm actually a great one...

 

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[b]LLL:[/b]
Look at all the kids who grow up to be hoods because of a bad childhood, and the number of marriages and family relationships that are messed up because of what people were raised with. Once there are raised-in defects in the personality -- and I know this both from reading and personal experience -- growing past them into a healthier self is the hardest sort of work.[hr][/blockquote]*thinks about a few people he knows*

Oh. I see what you mean.

As for Dooku being Palpatine's father . . . well, I can think of several simpler ways to acquire genetic material from Jedi. They don't make good plot bunnies, though. :D


A question:
Why Emperor Palpatine and not Emperor Sidious? It's not like the Sith Order needs to hide any more. My two speculations are that a) they're actually two different people and b) Palpatine used the Sith like he used everyone else.

 

"Palpatine used the Sith like he used everyone else."

Now, THERE'S an interesting plot bunny.

I think we need a new discussion question.

Anyone?

 

: Why Emperor Palpatine and not Emperor Sidious? It's not like the Sith Order needs to hide any more. My two speculations are that a) they're actually two different people and b) Palpatine used the Sith like he used everyone else.

Spoiler:
The new trailer that was on TV tonight was Palpy-rich... and a few scenes made it abundantly clear to me that Palps and Sidious are indeed one in the same person. When Mace and three other Jedi confront Palpatine in his office, Palpy produces a lightsaber and stands up to them. The entire trailer seems to transition Palpy from politician to Sith.

In fact, based on Ian's complete and total ownage of that role in the trailer, I think Palpy may be my fave character in ROTS.

 

Ditto Arin, ditto. Though I'm gonna cry prob before even the first half of the movie is over!

Why Emperor Palpatine and not Emperor Sidious? It's not like the Sith Order needs to hide any more. My two speculations are that a) they're actually two different people and b) Palpatine used the Sith like he used everyone else.

Maybe cuz his cover was shot and he had to keep Palpatine? Dunno that's a good question about why not 'Emperor Sidious'... very good one indeed. As for the 'a' and 'b' speculations... nah he's the same dude I'm sure. Unless he's like possessed or something... now that'd be a new one from George!

 

I've got a potential discussion topic. I've explored this in some of my own fics,and I'm wondering what everyone else thinks.

There was a set of 6 books once for younger readers which featured Triclops, a son of Palpatine, and his own son Ken. These were written before most of the EU and before the background of Palpatine we have received through the Prequels.

So, what would Palpatine do if he had kids? Would they have been accidents or planned, and how would Palpatine view them? Would they be potential allies, liabilities...? And what would they think of all this? What would a son or daughter of Palpatine think about him, whether during the Saga era or afterwards? How would they handle their parentage later on in life if they had been cast aside or, more interestingly in my opinion, been raised by him?

 

There was a set of 6 books once for younger readers which featured Triclops, a son of Palpatine, and his own son Ken. These were written before most of the EU and before the background of Palpatine we have received through the Prequels.

Ahhhh I remember those!! Yeah! Those were pretty nifty. Man that's been like forever since I've read those... shoot I dunno even where they're at! Hmm I need to dig those up and reread him.

So, what would Palpatine do if he had kids?

If he had any it would be for manipulative reasons. ( was that the right worrd to use....manipulative?)

Would they have been accidents or planned, and how would Palpatine view them?

I'd think that he'd work with them, mold him/her/them to what he wants. If he/she/them don't work out...then he'd off them like any good Sith father would!

Would they be potential allies, liabilities...?

If he/she/they did what daddy told them too, sure he/she/they'd be allies. He'd probably reward him/her/them like any Sith Master/Daddy would. Ahhh Sith Daddy isn't that such a cute title! Now of course like I mentioned before...if they don't he might punish him/her/them somehow if he gave them a second chance. If they blow it he'd out him/her/them.

And what would they think of all this?

Depending on how he/she/they is/are raised, what influenced him/her/them during the rising. Cuz if they only had Palps and maybe one other. Then he/she/they juz might be total evil reincarnated. Now if he/she/they got influenced somehow outside Palps knowledge...well then he/she/they might get wind that evil isn't all what it is cracked up to be

What would a son or daughter of Palpatine think about him, whether during the Saga era or afterwards?

Now once again that would depend on how he/she/they is/are raised. If raised juz by Palps then he/she/they would praise how his/her/their father is. How he has become what he has throughout the years. How manipulative and conniving. He/she/they would idolize him and strive to become juz like Sith Daddy!

How would they handle their parentage later on in life if they had been cast aside or, more interestingly in my opinion, been raised by him?

Oh I do not believe there would be any 'setting aside'. He/she/they would be considered a threat...major threat if he/she/they did not do Palps will. He would oust him/her/them. I can't see him putting a kid aside. Nope. Raise or kill. That would be the bottom line. Now if raised by him... he/she/they would be Palp junior/s for sure. If not more evil. *shudders* Can one imagine it?? Something more sinister than Palps? He/she/they could learn from Palps mistakes and pick up the tables from where he dies in RotJ.

Though that's my own opinion though. Sith Daddy... I like that title!!

Now a good question would be - who'd be the mommy? What candidate could you possibly imagine? Another Force sensitive? If so who?

 

Hi there folks!

I've scoured the web looking for some research materials of this nature!!! It's been a great read, hearing all your takes on Palpatine.

I realise that the post was started some time ago, and I can't see when the last post was submitted (what year anyways), is anyone still interested in discussing this theme?

The reason I ask is that I'm writing a script for a short SW fan film that will provide a brief (but very striking) portrait of Palpatine in his formative years. Already trained in the Sith arts, but not yet a master (around the same 'Apprentice' level as Darth Maul would have been in Episode 1), and at this stage his boasts a notable, if not yet prominent career in Politics. Unlike, Darth Maul's aggressive attitude and fiercely confrontational style, Palpatine will exercise patience and guile to press the advantage his way, but when he DOES strike, he does so with great brutality and sadism as he relishes in causing pain to his enemies. One important point is that the film itself will 'truly' represent the level of violence that you would expect from a Sith Lord, and will be extremely intense (I know Lucas is going to push Episode 3 further in this direction than ever before, but this short film will portray the Star Wars universe and Palpatine himself of course in an EXTREMELY harsh and threatening manner, most likely far beyond the level Lucas would able to take a mainstream commercial film like Episode 3), kinda like the 'Pulp Fiction' of Star Wars!

The working title right now is: "Star Wars: Palpatine"

I'm piecing together the overall structure of the script with the main plot and characters, but I was hoping to find more character development material from threads like this one to flesh out Palpatine and perhaps provide plausible hints toward his background and Master.

So, if any of you guys are interested in keeping this thread going a bit longer, I'd be very keen to hear your ideas!

 

I'm always interested to see other's ideas of Palpatine, but I think it's pretty apparent that I'm the minority opinion. I just don't want to see a character that's 110% pure evil, with no softer human qualities at all. I do wish you good luck on your fan film. When we did our first audio drama, it was mainly in reaction to all those fan films out with NO story and/or dreadful acting, that were mainly excuses for special effects. I'm doing a Palpy story too, but it's taking place between Ep's I and II (because I hate to write another audio drama and not use Elizabeth, who is the most awesome Padme voice next to Natalie Portman), so all I can do is hint about his former life.

So, what would Palpatine do if he had kids?

This is an interesting question, because I've always held the suspicion that Mara Jade is actually Palpatine's daughter. I think if he found himself in need of certain services and felt the child was of the talent and temperament to serve, he'd train the child, just as he has Mara Jade. On the other hand, Palpatine is extremely precognitive, perhaps the most precognitive of any Force user living or dead, and if he foresaw that a child would be competitive with him or betray him, I don't think that child would live past its first hour ...

Would they have been accidents or planned, and how would Palpatine view them?

Because of my backstory for Palpatine (raised by a relative, who loved him but was terribly conflicted over it and weakened by it, yet saved Palpatine's life because of that love), I see Palpatine as being conflicted himself over the idea of having any progeny and definitely NOT planning any. However, if an accident happened, and that accident happened to be Mara, he may well be able to live with that child ... and then rush in for a vasectomy!! Personally, I don't see how he wouldn't have had some permanent means of birth control in the first place. Any child of his would have to be near to him in ability, and Palpy wouldn't want THAT, now, would he?? Perhaps his vasectomy grew back together, and that was Mara!

Would they be potential allies, liabilities...? Nah ... think I just answered that one.

And what would they think of all this? What would a son or daughter of Palpatine think about him, whether during the Saga era or afterwards? How would they handle their parentage later on in life if they had been cast aside or, more interestingly in my opinion, been raised by him?

Hmmm. That's a nature vs. nurture question, I think. Palpy pretty much raised Mara, and there's no indication that he abused or brutalized her. And she was quite devoted to him, until she came to know the Alliance better and came to better understand what Palpatine's rule really meant for some of the galaxy's peoples. So I think that Palpatine is CAPABLE of treating a child of his well ... and that child obviously treated him well in return. I think an abused or brutalized child would either seethe its entire life and kill him the instant it was able ... or be more like Maul in the Darth Maul journal, desperate to please.

But in every case, WOULD Palpatine brutalize a child or treat it more like Mara Jade? I think the main factors that would influence him to abuse a child or treat it harshly would be a.) male sex, b.) Force abilities too near to his own, or c.) a headstrong disposition that competed with him rather than hearkening respectfully to his wishes. The more a child was strong in these attributes, the more risk that child would run of being treated brutally or killed.

Which sheds some light on Maul's temperament and abilities, come to think of it.

 

Thank you, Arin_Atona, but I'm keeping myself away from the new trailer until I give in to temptation.


So, what would Palpatine do if he had kids?

Cover his tracks to avoid a scandal, probably. We haven't been introduced to Mrs. Palpatine, after all.

I think he would either act out the part of a doting father as part of his non-Sith cover or be a stern Sith Master. I don't see him brutalizing the child unless it suited his plans. Of course, Sith training might very well be brutal or at least harsh.

 

I can't envision Palpatine having a child from a conventional relationship. Especially anytime around the PT timeline. And if Palpy desired any sort of female contact for an evening, I'd wager he'd take steps to make sure there was no child as a result.


Now, if there was a child as a result of some youthful indiscretion, that's another bag of worms. My guess is that galactic domination is an all-consuming profession and it doesn't leave a lot of time for parenting.

 

LLL, in response to your contemplation of Palpatine's 'Fatherly' instincts. I think it's quite reasonable to assume that as a Sith Lord (just like as a Jedi) love and relationships might be a bit of a stretch and extremely hard for someone so steeped in their 'religion' or career to really achieve (even Anakin and Padme' had great difficulty accomplishing this under their own extreme circumstances).

Personally, i believe it is more likely that Palpatine would look for more of a 'surrogate' child. Someone already possessed of some of the characteristics found in Palpatine, and someone he could then take under his wing, and influence and mould - then turn them to the Dark Side.

I think he looked upon his apprentices as the children his way of life could never truly facilitate. Children who also believed in his own beliefs, and children who already had the potential (including Force sensitivity) to follow in his footsteps.

I'm sure when his apprentices fell to the Jedi, he felt an emotional response MORE intense than if those apprentices had been of his own blood. For him, blood would not have been as thick a bond as a common belief in the nature of the Force, and a common resolve to want to mould the galaxy according to this belief. Losing Darth Maul and Anakin (in Anakin's case, seeing him reduced to a crippled Vader) and of course the failed potential of taking on Luke Skywalker as a new prospective apprentice probably hurt Palpatine more then anyone really appreciates, more than losing the Death Stars. I think the only cause more important in Palpatine's heart and mind was his domination of the Galaxy, but with a worthy successor being a close second.

So, his deeper 'human' motivations for choosing his way of life may still lie somewhere further in his past, I still believe his devotion to his surrogate 'children' or apprentices does represent a side to his 'humanity' that is never truly shown on screen, a different side to the monster which in itself serves to provide another dimension to his character, a more human character.

It's lonely at the top, and for Palpatine, his apprentice would have been the only person to truly grasp his motivations for taking this path of life, the closest thing he'd have had to a true companion to share it all with and the only being worthy to eventually pass it all onto.

 

But if you think you're gonna clone yourself and live for a thousand years ... you probably wouldn't concern yourself with a successor for quite a while yet.

Which brings me to a worthy third discussion question:

What do you think of what's been done with Palpatine in the EU? Are you happy with it? If not, what would you have done instead??

RE: Cover his tracks to avoid a scandal, probably. We haven't been introduced to Mrs. Palpatine, after all.

LOL!!

 

I can't really say what my opinion of the EU's Palpy is, as I've only read the Timetales script thingies for Dark Empire and seen a few images from them. But I'm glad it's there, because one of my fanfics is fast turning into "Fun with Spaarti Cylinders".

And about the why apprentices thing: I believe several people have brought up in fanfics and other places, the Chronology Guide included if I remember properly, that the incidents with Lemelisk's punishments after the Death Star's destruction was a test of the soul transfer techniques. Palpatine seems to have had no clue if the technique would work right when he apprenticed Vader, much less Dooku or Maul.