Characters Palpatine characterization thread: UP FOR ADOPTION!

I admit, I haven't delved too far into the EU after the OT.

What you say about cloning himself for a thousand years is a reasonable point, but take into account that 1000 years is a very long time to play with your Empire and your imperial 'puppets' without anyone whom you could consider worthy of actually talking to and being kept company by.

In the OT, Palpatine considered Vader to 'belong to him' (wouldn't any megalomaniac saturated in the Dark Side of the Force?), but at the same time, he referred to him as 'friend', and gave him great freedom and resources to pursue his own agenda (though only if Palpatine forsaw it to be of benefit to himself in the long-term of course!).

Also, if I am correct, the Sith way requires the Apprentice to succeed his Master by taking his place (i.e. betraying and killing him). Therefore, if one of Palpatine's apprentices had ever in their lifetime been capable of defeating him despite his own great power and clairvoyance, I'm sure that in the Sith tradition, he would be satisfied that his 'replacement' was a worthy one, and that his role as Sith Lord was ultimately complete by grooming not a subordinate, not even an equal, but ultimately a superior. (He must have known that Vader would attempt to recruit Luke Skywalker as an ally in order to team up against and overthrow his rule, but he never intended to punish Vader for his treachery, particularly because he saw the potential for enlisting a healthier, uncrippled, stronger replacement for Vader, and believed himself to still ultimately be in control of Vader and the situation).

If you are going to be killed in the end, then it might as well be at the hands of someone who shares your own religion and beliefs, is as capable as yourself, and will carry on your good work.

So, although Palpatine made extensive plans for his infinite lifespan and indefinite rule of the Galaxy (he was nothing if not a prudent planner, we know this) through the cloning process, he would have quietly have expected his life to be ended prematurely by one of his superior pupils eventually, rather than by a Jedi, or a wretched Rebel insect!

This is just my take of course!

 

I had my idea based on the Dark Empire soul transference for why it was Emperor Palpatine (http://boards.theforce.net/The_Saga/b10476/15266270).

One thing to remember is that it is Darth Vader who is known as ?The Dark Lord of the Sith? which could be taken as suggesting that it is not common knowledge that the Emperor is also a Sith, or he?d be ?The Dark Lord of the Sith? and Vader merely ?The Dark Apprentice of the Sith?.
Another is the surprise expressed in Truce at Bakura when Luke says the Emperor had power in the force, which again suggests that him being a Sith Master is not common knowledge.
Counteracting this though is the assassination plot in the Empire comics where they used a lot of traitor Stormtroopers and the references in the Thrawn Trilogy to the Emperor?s force powers which shows that at least the highest ranking Imperials were aware of the secret?.

Comment on a different topic would be Dark Empire in general. I like the manipulation of Luke, I like the toying with Leia over whether to possess the unborn/new-born Anakin Solo. Even before the prequels though I was not that keen on some aspects of the storyline and now I have another irritation to it.
It just seems that someone with the skills being shown by Palpatine in the prequels would not have been so clumsy in his return. All credit to him managing to build such vast forces during his time hidden, but an open military assault seems too lacking in subtlety. Corrupting the New Republic from within, corrupting the new Jedi from within as well, slowly reforming them, and avoiding the mistakes that led to his (literal) downfall seems more PT Palpatine.

OUCH: Plot Bunny...what if the Emperor-reborn had tracked down Garm Bel-Iblis just before the Thrawn Trilogy, and replaced his soul with his own (okay, that?s similar to the story I put a link to). Then when ?Garm? was brought back into the highest echelons of the New Republic thus would they embrace the seeds of their corruption.
(Not that they needed any help to become as corrupt as the Old Republic had been )

Comment on a totally different topic would be to let you read a little document from 21/10/98, which were my ideas for Palpatine before the Prequels.

(http://www.btinternet.com/~jmdare/PALSUM.txt)

I was making Palpatine originally be a good guy (and have a wife and family) before he was corrupted by the Dark powers he had discovered under duress, Prequels make him a Sith Master. I was assuming Clones were Bad & Slaves of Clonemasters who were enemies of Republic, Prequels have Clonetroopers as loyal servants of the Republic / Empire. I assumed Anakin had parents and would have known them, Prequels have Anakin be the son of a single mother and be unusual to have even known her at all.

 

I like the manipulation of Luke, I like the toying with Leia over whether to possess the unborn/new-born Anakin Solo.

That last bit would be sweet! Having the possession look like it failed but in actuality it did not... now that'd be coooool to read!

As for Palps starting out a good guy and having a family. That sounds pretty nifty too. Gotta check into that one!

The Dark Empire comics were awesome! The Thrawn stuff I haven't read in soooo long... prob since it first came out. I need to reread those especially since a character of mine later in a fic will be the nephew of Garm Iblis .

Thanks for posting those links _JM_!!

 

Dark Empire ...

I think its main strength is that, admit it, we ALL wanted to see Luke really get tempted by the Dark Side. Really struggle with it. I think that aspect of the story was done well.

But Palpatine. Palpatine, Palpatine, Palpatine.

They wrote him like a crazed maniac. And every time you thought he was gone ... here he was again. That tactic is not good.

Repeat: Not Good. It is possible to do SO much more with this character that that. I thought it was lazy, sloppy writing. After you make Palpatine, the biggest villian of all time in movies, the one who corrupted Darth Vader, into nothing but a buffoon, who cares to see Luke spar with him? He isn't fascinating, and you KNOW he's gonna lose.

I think the person who's handled Palpatine best after the OT is Brendon Wahlberg. I always wanted to write Palpatine redemption story, but he's already written the best one.

 

I think Dark Empire isn't so bad. I'd like to forward my interpretation of Palpatine though with a quote from A Muppet Christmas Carol

"Out of fear comes hate."
-Statler and Waldorf

Palpatine is a figure who I like to think of as essentially like Darth Maul, Lucas agrees. Palpatine and Darth Maul were both raised into evil by their masters and they completely lack any of the normal social graces and consciences that characterize people because they were broken at a very early age.

In my own personal continuity, Palpatine was force fed a diet of fear and pain by his mentor and only by learning to be like his mentor was Palpatine able to survive in the environment he grew up. His mentor was smoothe and cunning though and ironically he did not want to impart these virtues onto his own heir (or Maul didn't pick them up)

I think Palpatine considers Anakin like a son but Palpatine is so mindnumbingly alien in his outlook of hate, fear, force, and negative emotions replacing positive emotions that its difficult to actually seperate him. He's ironically what the Yuuzhan Vong strive to be in a being with out mercy because he's utterly unable to see it.

He sees only negative emotions even when the positive is there.

Lust replaces Love.

 

Palpatine is a figure who I like to think of as essentially like Darth Maul, Lucas agrees.

Really?? Could you direct me to your source for this information? I'm really interested ... because as far as I've ever seen there was absolutely no hint that Lucas gave any thought at all to Palpatine's personhood whatsoever. He was just there to make the story go, to cause trouble for the heroes to make a story.

Palpatine and Darth Maul were both raised into evil by their masters and they completely lack any of the normal social graces and consciences that characterize people because they were broken at a very early age.

But Palpatine HAD to be taught somewhere, because without the social antennae to know what people want and expect and how to act convincingly as if he were delivering it, he never would have been able to be elected, let alone succeed in the Senate for long enough to get his shot at the central podium.

If he didn't come up knowing these graces, he had to acquire a good teacher, fast. (Which implies that he at least knew enough to realize he had no choice but to learn.) And if he did grow up with the knowledge, he had to have been treated kindly at some point.

I think that there is a marked difference in the character from the beginning of the entire arc to the end, in that he wins the Chancellor's podium through his acute sensitivity to how the others around him are feeling and what they want. He works with it and it gets him precisely where he wants to go. By the end of the OT, however, he shows no understanding of Vader's feelings at all, and it is his downfall. I think it's obvious that Vader is deeply devoted to his master, and very reluctant to harm him in any way. Palpatine has to literally torture Luke to death in front of him before Vader will move against him. This level of reluctance to move against Palpatine suggests strongly to me that if Palpatine had retained any of his former sensitivity to people that got him the throne in the first place, he could have kept Vader loyal to him with just a word, a gesture of esteem.

But he no longer knew enough to do this, even though formerly he was a master at it, and to me this change in his character is very intriguing.

Why did he change in this way?

 

To my knowledge, I don't think Palpatine ever has felt a single human emotion. I think his mentor showed him how people react but I think its important to state the difference between understanding and empathy.

His mentor wasn't probably some gnashing teethed monster. He was probably living a life like a Vampire, which is the closest thing that I can think of for a Siths existence undetected amongst mortals.

He and his mentor probably travelled through the ranks of humanity and he was educated about human feelings but in the same way that someone might be educated about butterflies and bees.

Palpatine was probably not exposed to these things til he was fourteen or so, still plenty of time to learn but after he was well set in his development and beliefs.

the quote Lucas gives is one I'm reading into

"Palpatine could never trust Dooku or Vader since they were Jedi, unlike Maul who was like he and Sith through and through."

This description of Palpatine is not 'pure evil' actually but largely a tragic one I think. Palpatine is someone who lacks the ability to express human loss because he's had his positive emotions beaten out of him.

He's a man who likely has never known joy, mirth, or anything resembling true friendship or affection.

 

I think the simplest and most important question regarding Palpatine is...

...Did he seek out the Dark Side, or did it seek him out.

From that answer, we can continue to speculate on his character and personality based on whether he was 'moulded' into his eventual persona intentionally by an existing Sith Lord who saw potential in him, or whether his own discontentment in the Status Quo, and his own need to reface the galaxy drove him to uncover and embrace the Sith teachings.

Once we know the answer to this question, we are better equipped to debate whether the "Dark Side" was initially merely a tool to fulfill Palpatine's will but eventually consumed him, or whether Palpatine was just a puppet of the Dark Side from the start.

Ultimately, I think we'll all have to establish a full understanding of what the force actually is and how it interacts with the minds and indeed the destinies of those intwined with it to truly decide on the relationship between Palpatine and the path he followed.

 

All excellent points!

Personally, I think he had to be recruited. I don't think, since the Sith were such a big secret, that a person could stumble onto that level of Force skill by seeking the knowledge out. How would someone even know he had the Force in the first place, let alone know where to seek out such secret and arcane knowledge.

By the same token, I think more about the Sith would have to be delineated, as well, since we really know so little.

I think that after 1000 years of the lore being handed down and added to by one stubborn, headstrong practitioner after another, that the Order would drift to one side, then the other, then back again, of its original principles and purpose, since there is no one above the current Master to force that Master to do as Masters preceding him have prescribed. I imagine the Sith would have had a very colorful history full of varied personalities who brought their own histories and preferences to bear on what they did and what they taught the next generation. Although all the writings of previous Masters would be there for the current generation to study, of course.

"Palpatine could never trust Dooku or Vader since they were Jedi, unlike Maul who was like he and Sith through and through."


Where are you finding this? Could you point me to this reference?

 

It was in one of the attack of the clones interviews.

He didn't say much more sadly.

 

"Personally, I think he had to be recruited. I don't think, since the Sith were such a big secret, that a person could stumble onto that level of Force skill by seeking the knowledge out."

A lot of devices have been created that could overcome these circumstances, Holocrons for example are capable of imparting great knowledge to those in possession of them, and in the game "Knight of the Old Republic", even entering places possessed of Dark Side energy is supposed to influence Force Sensitive people to a degree.

I like the concept of the Sith having been wiped out, with nothing but ancient relics and latent Dark Side Force remaining in the universe, the bulk of both residing in Korriban (The Sith Mausoleum World). The location of this evil place may not be common knowledge to all, but a resourceful intelligent individual (Palpatine for example) could locate it with enough research, etc. Palpatine could then have used the many holocrons and various other relics to immerse himself in the Sith teachings and nurture his own latent (but neutral) Force abilities toward the Dark Side. Perhaps, because the Dark Side is an easier and more instinctual path to follow, it is possible to achieve without a Master to teach the pupil the far more difficult Jedi concepts of calmness, restraint and patience. Also, it would explain why after thousands of years of conflict between the Sith and the Jedi, the Sith would finally now rise to power after such a long period of apparent inactivity.....

.....Ironically without a Sith Master to guide him their ways, Palpatine would have used his own brilliant intellect and initiative to formulate a radical and inspired plot relying NOT ONLY on Sith training and techniques, but also a FAR more evil and base discipline - Politics.

Politics - plain and simple. The Sith were always going to be fighting against superior odds with their "One Master and One Apprentice" limitation against masses of Jedi,

so by bringing Politics into the equation, Palpatine could plot a quiet 'Cold' war with the Jedi, whilst potentially influencing BILLIONS of people to his cause (of course his TRUE cause would remain hidden), and he could use his Sith skills to personally manipulate events to his favour in the background. To my knowledge, this ploy was never before conceived of by the Sith, and is probably a key reason why Palpatine was in fact finally able to overcome the Jedi in the end, through cunning and manipulation rather than brute strength.

Of course, this concept doesn't explain the WHYs. WHY would he seek out the SITH teachings? Was it an intentional move to develop his latent Force abilities and powers further (for evil purposes), and if so what would provoke him to take that path?

Or more tragically, could it be that Palpatine was innocent and merely wanted to discover more about his latent Force (independently of the Jedi), and sought out the Sith teachings, ignorantly thinking that he could use the techniques to develop himself, whilst not necessarily turning to the Dark Side, but was slowly seduced and turned by the power he gained, inadvertently becoming the new personification of the Dark Side and once again resurrecting the Sith movement.

Of course, there are a lot of good story ideas out there for Palpatine to have been taught by a Sith Master too, I particularly like the idea of him treacherously killing his master to obtain the rank himself!

 

Perhaps, because the Dark Side is an easier and more instinctual path to follow, it is possible to achieve without a Master to teach the pupil the far more difficult Jedi concepts of calmness, restraint and patience.

Or more tragically, could it be that Palpatine was innocent and merely wanted to discover more about his latent Force (independently of the Jedi), and sought out the Sith teachings, ignorantly thinking that he could use the techniques to develop himself, whilst not necessarily turning to the Dark Side, but was slowly seduced and turned by the power he gained, inadvertently becoming the new personification of the Dark Side and once again resurrecting the Sith movement.

Wow, that?s a very interesting idea! I never thought of that. I like the theory a lot more than the plain ?he?s evil, I don?t care why? or "I'm sure his childhood was a hell".

Great discussion!

 

I always consider Palpatine to have started out very much like Padme Amidala, a young politician very interested in community service and all that. However, some horrible tradgedy embittered him (probably around 20) and somehow he managed to learn the ways of the Sith. In my opinion, he's a very tragic character.

How he would have stumbled onto the Sith, I don't know. Archives and hidden scrolls? He would, as a powerful Senator, have access to immense amounts of information.

Why did he become Emperor? He seems to be the kind of person that doesn't know how to do anything else but gain power. He is simply not capable of anything else.

Also, I love this thread! At last a thoughtful discussion of my favorite character!

 

In my RPG, Palpatine's origin was this...

Palpatine grew up on Naboo, a planet that was descended from the Sith Empire. The Gungans long remembered the evil of their ancestors but could not fight them at any point.

The last of the pure blooded Houses of the Sith (his cousin in Sate Pestage is another noted member of his family) that had become Merchant Families of Naboo, Palpatine was wealthy enough to enter politics but instead chose the life of an Academic and became a scholar.

Palpatine then unearthed one of the last remaining Temples of the Sith where he made contact with the Spirit of a Dark Lord. The spirit attempted to seize Palpatine's body for himself but found himself unable to overcome the man's titanic will.

Still...the process slowly was killing Palpatine.

Palpatine promised the spirit anything; money, power, his soul, and more and it took alittle while to realize the spirit was listening. The spirit began educating Palpatine in hopes of eventuallly taking his body.

Palpatine's "Youtful adventures" are a matter of public record as he sought out ancient Sith locations and learned much from many masters. Palpatine learned from Exar Kun, Darth Bane, Marcus Ragnos, and others.

In the end, Palpatine turned on his master and destroyed him as is many of the cases. He then returned as an Academic to enter politics in an unexpected move...choosing to hide in plain sight.

 

Do you think it was possible for Palpatine to have resisted becoming a Sith or was his nature so lacking in some essential ingredient that no matter what it was inevitable?

 

I think Palpatine's character lends itself much more naturally to the Dark Side than someone like Anakin. Anakin was volatile and easy to manipulate and maneuver to the Dark Side (the road to evil is paved with good intentions), whereas for someone with the foresight, clarity of vision and sheer will of the Emperor, the move is more likely to have been deliberate. Plus he genuinely seems to revel in the Dark Side and embrace it's influence, whereas Anakin/Vader has moments where he seems a bit more poignant about the whole situation, like he got duped into something that he cannot now escape (kinda like when someone offers you a cigarette or a drug dealer gives you a free sample to get you hooked).

It's still a bit of a 'Chicken and Egg' problem though:

Did Palpatine seek out the Dark Side to aid an existing craving for power and dominion, or did he crave the power and dominion because he was already consumed by the Dark Side and it's influence set him on this path?

I will always like the idea of Palpatine actually seeking out the Dark Side and Sith teachings (at this point in time, they've been all but extinguished by the Jedi for thousands of years) in order to develop himself to a level where he can use it to his advantage and help himself ascend to power, but somewhere along the way it ceased to be a tool he could control, and to a degree he became a tool it started to control (like some form of over the top steroid addiction).

There will always be people with natural ambition and a will to achieve great things, these people will always seek out any 'angle' and 'advantage' they can find to press the advantage home and make the dream a reality, but when trying to use the Force (which pretty much has a will of it's own) to this end, then the individual is in danger of becoming consumed, and their initial desires and intentions warped and distorted. Like historical figures such as Hitler, there are very few people who are able to amass significant power and influence without becoming more ruthless and self-opinionated, and losing some humanity (I doubt by the end of WW2 that this was the same man, with the same vision as the younger version who got involved in politics initially). To overcome the competition and reach a position to make decisions that affect the fate of hundreds of billions of people is nigh impossible without being prepared to go that bit further than all your competitors to win.

Like Vader says: "If you only knew the power of the Dark Side", and "Don't underestimate the power of the Force"

By the time you truly realise the power of the Dark Side, it's already too late!

 

One thing I wonder about is whether using the Dark Side and Sith teachings could be a defensive tactic.

I did a story with a (Old) Republic General who was strong in the force and hiding this from the Jedi, as his parents and ancestors hid their own strength from the Jedi. I?ll cut and paste the reply so you don?t have to read the story (unless you want to ).

---

[b]Tych_sel[/b]- In the plan I had him saying ?the Corellian Jedi have the right idea? as there have been stories based on the idea that rather than Nejaa Halycon having a secret marriage that Corellian Jedi had a distinct unique tradition, more like the NJO. I wasn?t thinking of the General having any knowledge of Anakin or Nejaa, more just the idea that once upon a time (200-300 years previously) a mother and father realised their baby was strong in the force and knew the Jedi would want to take and train it.

So they kept this a secret and managed to avoid discovery until the child was old enough to understand that he/she needed to control the powers and not allow anyone to know. This child grew up and so did its brothers and sisters, some with power in the force and others without. The older force-strong children were able to help by suppressing each new force-strong baby?s power until it could conceal this itself so although each new potential-Jedi was another chance for them to be exposed the more potential-Jedi were part of the family the more they could work together to minimise the risks.

Eventually the children started to leave home and start families of their own. At each birth one of the force-strong family members was present (an uncle or a grandparent if both the mother and the father lacked the ability) to hide the baby?s power if needed and if wanted. Sometimes the family-member decided that they would allow the Jedi to recruit their child if it was force-strong.

But the secret remained and the family grew. In some branches of the family the strength in the force died out, in others it flourished as the family members married descendants of siblings of Jedi and the children inherited the potential to be born force-strong on both sides. Generation after generation were ?allowed to marry and have children and raise them and nurture their growth in the Force as their parents had done for them? and generation after generation was raised to regard the Jedi with suspicion as the only people who could expose their hidden gifts.

[hr]
Thinking about the idea that the Dark Side is the more instinctive path, honing your own individual will and strength of personality rather than letting this be suborned to the will of the force, made me wonder about the vague background I had in mind for the General. The technique used by Palpatine to disguise his power in the force would have been very useful in the family, and breeding force-strong with force-strong might make stronger force users.
(With the Jedi every time someone showed strength in the force they were ?recruited? as a baby, and therefore prevented from having children and passing on this strength. With the family they were not.)

So since the Jedi would guard their own teachings if the family could find Sith techniques of concealment they might use them, if they could find Sith techniques to defeat Jedi then again they might use them.

Maybe I should have made the General be General Palpatine, 8th cousin of the Supreme Chancellor.
But then again if I had then it wouldn?t have been a surprise to the General that his cousin was force strong.

Actually re-reading back through this thread it seems what I decided to suggest, that Palpatine could have been a son of a family of force strong who had honed their own techniques and distruct of the Jedi over the centuries, is similar to Charlemagne 19?s RPG idea of him being a member of a House of the Sith.

Hmm. Plot Bunny. The origin of the noble house had been lost, deliberately obscured by hiding or destroying documents, but then they got the force strong baby

 

I haven't exactly had time to read through this, but YAY!!!!! My second all time fave character finally has a thread!!! Anyway, on the point of Palpatine, I'm currently working on a fic based around his past.

In my story, he's much more of a tragic character, desperate, hopeless. There's alot more to him than pure evil, something made him that, but what? What led him to let go and give into that?

He once had hope, and that's what I do. Of course it's also a romance, and that's a large part of his failure. At least in my universe anyway, hehe.

I have one short story, and than a fic that ties together. Maybe I'll post it.

 

Another interesting topic is Palpatine's relations with Anakin/Vader. IMO they used to be much closer and cared about each other the way only Sith could. I think there should be much more to Master-Apprentice relations than hatred and aspiration for ultimate power. I won't give more details, just read Veronica Wilson's fanfiction. As far as I know she created the best psychological portait of Palpatine. The Emperor is pictured here not as absolute evil, but as a shrewd and manipulative politician, who really cared for his Apprentice.
Here are the links for these stories. IMO they are the best written about the Master.
Balance of power - Part 1
Enduring rivalry between Vader and Tarkin nearly turns deadly as Palpatine determines who should command the Empire's newest battle station. Contains some sexual situations. http://www.ltljverse.com/embassy/stories/balance1.txt
Balance of power - Part 2 http://www.ltljverse.com/embassy/stories/balance2.txt
Shifting Sands
Palpatine and Vader go to Tatooine, where the Dark Lord, uncharacteristically disturbed, his sanity in question, wishes to learn all he can about his newly discovered son.
http://www.ltljverse.com/embassy/stories/sands.txt
Of Time and Regret (I was literary crying)
Palpatine ponders his fraught relationship with Vader, debating what to do about the existence of Luke Skywalker and his own all-too-inconvenient sentiments
http://www.ltljverse.com/embassy/stories/time.txt

 

Sorry I haven't been back in so long. My computer is in the shop with problems, problems, problems, and I am at the library posting this. (Ahhhhh, the high-speed connection!!!)

I AM still very interested in this discussion, and hope to be back at greater length soon. In the meantime:

1.) There's too many good ideas here. I think we need to sponsor a Palpatine challenge: Write your version of the origin of Palpatine. (It'd take me forever to finish mine, however, because mine's a novel. And I'm trying to write screenplays and this audio drama, too.)

2.) One of us should create an active Palpy website. There used to be one, but the webmistress was a grinch and later she lost interest and closed it. After this movie, interest in Palpatine is going to go through the ROOF.

3.) Did anybody read the Ian McDiarmid article mentioned on the TFN front page? What did you think of it?

4.) I usually don't buy Star Wars books, but I flipped through The New One (you can guess which one I mean) and had to buy that one. Now, unfortunately for me, I'm very inspired, with lots to discuss. Like I said, sometime when I'm not on the library computer.

5.) TO the person who asked me information about Palpatine's master:


S

P

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P

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... it's in the new Revenge of the Sith book just out. Go check it out!!!!

 

I don't know if it has been mentioned before on this thread or anywhere in canon, but what is Palpatine's first name? Is it ever mentioned? I'm working on an origins story for him, and it is slightly difficult to write him pre-Sith without some use of his first name.

 

Don't feel to bad. As far as I know there has never been mentioned his name like there hasn't been of Dooku's (which bites kind'a sucks having to call them Chancellor and/or Count all the time guess that's when you alternate politician and aristocrat *chuckles*)

 

It's interesting that Lucas/McDiarmid both see Palpatine as such a inherently evil character, particularly as Ian has studied for an M.A. in Clinical Psychology, and would likely have delved deeply into the motivations of his most high profile character to date. I suppose if Palpatine was also a tortured soul, then it would somehow lessen the impact of Anakin's fall from grace. Also, as Palpatine's death in ROTJ is a pretty 'evil' one (still being a baddie and in the process of frying poor Luke), it may have seemed a bit rotten for Lucas to give Vader redemption from his Dark Side blues, whilst leaving another equally tragic figure falling down a very deep hole (literally) without any possibility of sympathy or remorse!

(Also, the Sith Order would start to look like some crazy youth club for bitter vengeful angst-ridden adolescents. I'll always think of the Dark Side of the Force being like the Ring of Power in Lord of the Rings, corrupting those who wield it, no matter how noble their initial intentions may be - as opposed this whole melodramatic soap opera "Obi-Wan doesn't like me any more, and the Jedi don't like me any more, but Palpatine likes me so I think I'll be a Sith with him instead" thing that the prequels seem to be pushing)

I think it was just Palpatine's 'destiny' to fill that particualar role in the galaxy (though it's always a great thing when others can create a plausible new level of 'depth' for an otherwise shallow archetypal character).

I'm shortly going to start a new 'Palpatine' thread, one which I think will compliment this one nicely!

My thread will cover the "In between" of his life, his "hell-raising" days as a Sith Apprentice!

Basically, as I'm doing a short film which will provide a brief glimpse of the 'early years' of Palpatine (his activities and character as the equivilent of a Sith Apprentice, like Darth Maul in Ep 1), already well into his Sith training, but before the events of the Prequels, I'll need to establish his character.

Obviously, his origins (and this thread) are an essential part of developing a younger Palpatine, but I am looking to cover the more 'practical' immediate elements of his persona (i.e. - His junior role in politics, his fighting technique and use of the force, his attitude, his motivations and aspirations at this point in time, his relationships with others, etc).

I actually see him as being similar in some ways to Anakin (as he appears in EP 3), though wiser beyond his years and extremely devious and calculating for his age, less tormented, and with a sadistic streak!

But I'll stop veering off-topic now!!!

I'll post a link on this thread to that one shortly, and vice versa, to try and link the two threads as they are quite closely related.

 

I see Palpatine as raised by a sith. He was born on a planet without a jedi presence and so was not discovered,and was taken or given by his parents and raised by his "uncle"on naboo since there were probally few if any jedi there. I believe that sith cannot be trained until they can learn to hide their darkside. Palpatines only goal has been power and revenge against the Jedi and his whole life has been dedicated to getting into power. I have been imagining his life and training as a means to move up in the republic power structure.

 

Also, as Palpatine's death in ROTJ is a pretty 'evil' one (still being a baddie and in the process of frying poor Luke), it may have seemed a bit rotten for Lucas to give Vader redemption from his Dark Side blues, whilst leaving another equally tragic figure falling down a very deep hole (literally) without any possibility of sympathy or remorse!


OK, I'm back!!! (Man, I love DSL already!)

This is exactly what got me about the whole series of films to begin with.

In essentially saying, as Lucas seems to be doing with these films, "Well, here's one class of evil person, who still have some good in them and can be redeemed, and then there's THIS class of evil people who have no good in them and can't ..." well, when you say that you are basically saying that there are some people who have no power of choice. That they can never CHOOSE to be anything other than what they are, and they have no possibility of growth. That everyone else has power to alter their own path, but the Palpatines of the world don't.

I don't agree, and that's why I'm writing the Palpy stories I want to write. Granted, constructing a set of circumstances that would make *Palpatine* choose to alter his path is a tall order, but I don't think it's impossible.