Characters Palpatine characterization thread: UP FOR ADOPTION!

Discussion in 'Fan Fiction and Writing Resource' started by LLL, Mar 1, 2005.

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  1. maryaminx Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2005
    star 1
    Here's an interesting thought: Assuming that the force being in balance means equal numbers of Jedi and Sith, and that Palpatine helped bring about that balance with the clone wars, Palpatine was actually doing the will of the Force.

    Of course, that's if my take on the balance of the force is correct. I've heard several takes on it, but I like that one the best. Other people don't because it leaves to much room for Palpatine to be a sympathetic character.

    It's like the Judas betrayal. Some one was going to do it; it was just a question of who.
  2. LLL Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2000
    star 4
    "Of course, that's if my take on the balance of the force is correct. I've heard several takes on it, but I like that one the best. Other people don't because it leaves to much room for Palpatine to be a sympathetic character."

    But ... now there's NO Sith and a pile of Jedi again. So if that's the true interpretation, then this is going to have to happen all over again, to restore balance in the Force *again* ...

    Bleah.

    I think balance in the Force has more to do with attitude, in how you live your life. The Jedi are completely self-abnegating, while the Sith are completely selfish, acting on their own desires at the expense of all others. One way is injurious to other people; the other is injurious to the self. If you walk the middle path, that's what's best for everyone concerned.

    I know so many ppl hate Palpatine and don't believe him possible of redemption. Writing convincingly enough to reach those ppl ... and there are legions of them ... may prove to be impossible.

    Good thing I like a challenge.
  3. forceuserlikethis Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 19, 2005
    You gues know that Palp was doing his thing for control. Who said that all force users, wether good or bad had to have more power than the one before him. As far as I am aware There have been no Jedi to get more power just for the sake of power. Anakin will do it to save the life of Amadala. He turns into a sith. Dokuu gained his power to serve his master better. Darth Maul gained power and used his sith powers to accomplish what few others have done...kill jedi, but it was for darth Sid. So his powers wernt for the gain of himself either, it was for what he could accomplisghh for DS. DS aka Palp gained his powers as a sith. bt what were his gains? It was to mke the galaxy a better more orderly place.
    Once his did that, IN anh + it was to keep an orderly galixy. He did not do it for the sake of power itself. He killed jedi, or had jedi killed to accomplish his goals. IE... The ends are MORE important then the means. or for those star trek's out there...the needs of the few are outwayed by the needs of the many. Once he has power the rebellion were hurting the new order. Dont forget, the Republic had many channels to follow. Naboo problem would have been held up for months if not years according to amadalla. With one leader, it would have meed sped up ALOT. the prob comes to palp, then he gets the job done by outlawing democracy and the jedi. But the probs get delt with immediatly.
    But, in rotj, since palp needs to follow the sith teachings (like jedi have t o fallow jedi teachings) he needs a new apprentice. Because his current one is damaged. Vader fights luke and the winner is the one to be a new apprentice. Ie the stronger one. Since sith says only ever one apprentice per master, only the strongest can be the apprentice the winner will be the new sith.
    That will lead to after palp dies, the strongest one will be the new emperor. When a new emperor is ever in power, most challange him. So the strongest has to be inb power and can choose whoever needs to come next. if the second strongest was in power, someone would challange him and destroy by right of power successiopn everything that palp has worked for his whole life.. SMOOTH running of the galaxy. Not total power, but orderly conduct of all life forms.
  4. maryaminx Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2005
    star 1
    Umm... forceuserlikethis, translation? I think you're trying to say that the Sith method of each being stronger than the last was a good thing, but you said somothing about the rebellion in it too, so now I'm completely confused.
  5. LLL Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2000
    star 4
    I think what he's trying to say is that he thinks Palpatine's primary motivation is to do good for the galaxy; he just has a rather limited idea of "good."

    To him "good" means "order and no war," and if he has to take liberty from the people in order to accomplish that, too bad, but it has to be done. He's saying, if I understand this clearly, that the Sith believe that their way of running things is right and they consider themselves heroes because of it.

    Interesting theory.

    I do tend to agree, but I think this is only part, not all, of what Palpatine tells himself he is doing all this for.

    I also think that there are always two motivations for an action: The psychological underpinnings of the action, and what the person tells himself he's doing it for.

    What about you guys? Do you see a difference? Why is Palpatine really doing all this in your book, and what does he tell himself is/are his reasons?
  6. LLL Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2000
    star 4
    OK, I'll start.

    I believe that one convincing explanation for why Palpatine does what he does, is that he's been conditioned early on to believe that if he doesn't reach the absolute pinnacle of achievement for a Sith lord, he is absolutely nothing. He was supposed to be the greatest, the one who finally took the galaxy back from the Jedi and punished them for years of persecution, and if that should happen not to materialize ... he won't forgive himself for that. It shows up in a lot of what he does. He seems to be twisting a lot of things he does to reflect only the good results, while leaving out the unspeakable horror he's committed to get there. Because it was HIM doing it, it doesn't count, although he'd be quick to condemn the same behavior in someone else.

    But he's past the point of being able to consciously say to himself, "If I don't achieve this, I'm a total loser, a failure, an embarrassment." Maybe he said this when he was four or five, but now he's forgotten it. Now it comes out as, "The Jedi have kept the Sith running and hiding for 1000 years; they take Force-sensitive beings as babies and train them out of their own dreams for themselves and enslave them to what the Jedi Order thinks they should become. And we can't practice our beliefs openly, because if we did, we'd be killed just for being Sith even if we never harmed anyone else. It's criminal, and we the Sith will exterminate them and right these wrongs." And perhaps, "Because we're Sith, we're just better than other beings, and therefore we're entitled to use those not strong enough to exert their own will any way we please."

    He is probably telling himself these kinds of things, but behind it all is the idea that anything less than utter perfection on his part is the same as utter failure. He's kind of like the Mena Suvari character in "American Beauty" -- ordinariness is detestable and embarrassing.

  7. Alethia Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 13, 2005
    star 5
    I've been meaning to check out this thread for awhile...

    What about you guys? Do you see a difference? Why is Palpatine really doing all this in your book, and what does he tell himself is/are his reasons?

    Why Palpatine is really doing this...hmm... In one way, I guess, I also think that he meant it for the good of the galaxy. Who needs personal freedom when the galaxy is all united and there are no more wars?

    On the other hand, he could have gone and done it a lot differently. And I think he also wanted the power. I think part of being a Sith is wanting power and getting power. What's a better way to receive power if not by taking over the Senate and claiming yourself Emperor?

    And I'll definitely have to think over this some more.
  8. cka3ka Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2003
    star 1
    Hi All,

    I just noticed your threads and felt the innate urge to contribute--palpy is one of my favorite chars and I'm doing an AU centered around him + a/a right now.

    Anyway, I think one of the central problems around Star Wars is the linking of the effects of the Force to the Jedi and the Sith.

    For the Sith who adhere strongly to the Dark Side, they are seemingly obsessed with Power and the keeping of it. It seems that the moral that the SW world likes to stress is that Power Corrupts. Once you have power than you will always to keep that power and hence will begin to do whatever you can to keep it. No Price is too much for you to keep it.

    What boggles my mind is how a savvy politician like Palpatine suddenly loses his entire collection of brain cells. He obviously understands human nature very well and he manipulates situations to put himself into power. He is--according to TPM and AOTC--a revered leader of the Republic. He gained power by showing compassion, morality and what not. Somehow once he takes power, he decides to throw everything that worked for him and made him respected out the window. He starts mass executions, blowing up planets and starts ruling by fear. Doesn't really make sense to me except that he is corrupted by the Dark Side/Power.

    This of course leads to a discussion on the various nature of Light and Dark. With the EU so muddled its hard to see if there is really a difference. I personally like the explanation given in KOTOR II. I think there is an excellent treatment of Light vs Dark and how it affects the universe in that.

    Best Regards,
    Cka3ka
  9. LLL Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2000
    star 4
    It does make PLENTY of sense to me. It's actually an age-old phenomenon among people who become wealthy and successful beyond their wildest dreams ... or who achieve their dreams and then find out it isn't what they thought it would be.

    I'm going to elaborate, but it's too late and I have to hurry to bed. Maybe tomorrow. I would have been online sooner but I FINISHED MY SCREENPLAY TONIGHT!! Yay!! and it took all evening.

    Back soon!!
  10. Herman Snerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 1999
    star 6
    The dichotomy of Palpatine before and after his rise to power can be easily explained.


    Essentially before becoming emperor, he was two separate people. There was Palpatine, the congenial senator from Naboo who was apparently liked and respected, if a bit boring.

    Then there was Sidious, the evil Sith Lord who plotted and schemed tirelessly to advance his own power and eliminate his enemies.


    Essentially, after seizing the throne, there's no longer any need to have two personae, so Sidious stays and the Chancellor goes away forever.

    No longer needing to be patient and cunning, Palpy can be brutal as often as he sees fit.
  11. LLL Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2000
    star 4
    Not that I'm arguing with this line of thought, but I think it's more complicated than that.

    Let me try to explain what I was thinking about last night.

    It sort of has two major aspects to it.

    1.) Many extremely wealthy ppl who weren't always wealthy experience a big shift in their priorities with the arrival of too much "good stuff ..." money and status. Where they once held more normal, altruistic values in life but felt insecure because they had no money/security, now they HAVE money/security.

    But they find that they still aren't happy. They still don't feel secure even though they have what they always said would make them feel secure. They still don't feel content, even though they always thought that lots and lots of money was the very key to feeling content in life.

    Then they wonder why they don't feel content. And the feeling of insecurity leads them to be more and more preoccupied with themselves, and less and less thoughtful of other people and the world around them.

    I'm going to digress here and present something from an absolute GEM of a book by Dan Baker, Ph.D., called What Happy People Know. I think he has a lot to say about human nature in general, and a lot to say about what makes anyone, Sith lords included, unhappy with their lot, however plentiful it may be. Here without further ado are

    BAKER'S 12 QUALITIES OF HAPPINESS
    1- Love
    2- Optimism
    3- Courage
    4- A sense of freedom
    5- Proactivity
    6- Security
    7- Health
    8- Spirituality
    9- Altruism
    10- Perspective
    11- Humor
    12- Purpose

    If you score Palpatine on these 12 things, you can see he's seriously deficient on several.

    What happens with a lot of high-up people, says Baker, is that they think that only one or a few of the above things will make them happy, so when they Arrive and find they're still not happy, instead of figuring out what they're deficient in and pursuing that, they instead redouble their efforts on the one or two things they thought would make them happy (usually Power and the Almighty Dollar.) "I'm still not ecstatically happy yet?!" thinks the multibillionaire. "I must not have enough money and toys yet!" So off he goes in pursuit of Still More, while, say, the family relationships that are really what he needs go sorely neglected due to the increased working hours that are needed to procure more money and more expensive toys. I think something like this is going on with Palps.

    2.) When you are driving towards a faraway goal, you tend to have a picture in your mind of how things will be when you get there. Then you get there, and if it isn't what you pictured, you won't be happy with it.

    What did Palpatine probably picture, all those years ago, when he couldn't even get elected dog catcher? Didn't he probably imagine that if he actually did manage to become Emperor of the entire galaxy, he'd be supremely happy?? What do you think he was picturing???

    I guessed, for one thing, he thought he'd be healthy. And he most assuredly is not. I think also that one tends to assume that the heady thrill of reaching a long held goal will last forever. He probably imagined that the triumph of actually having become the greatest Sith lord in history, of having accomplished what no other Sith had ever been good enough to accomplish, would make the rest of his life.

    And then it's six months later. He's the Emperor. And one night he's sitting there. And the thrill has worn off. And he's going, somewhere deep within his soul where he doesn't quite want to even know about it, "OK, so what now?" A lot's been not only left out, but walled off from him in his high throne. The Dark side promised him he'd be happy once he did all this, and that he could have whatever he wanted, but he can't, in fact, have *everything* he wants. And he isn't happy about it.


    Everyone wants to say that these maniacal Sith lords are mysteriously "corrupted by a Dark side power."

    No, they're just desperately unhappy people, and they're acting that out
  12. Minion_of_Palpatine Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Nov 25, 2004
    You definitely are onto something here, Palpatine IS still a person, with his own motivations and emotions. To say that he does what he does solely because of being a Sith or being influenced by the Dark Side of the Force would be extremely shallow and would diminish a potentially intriguing character into a cardboard villain.

    But you shouldn't forget that Star Wars is in fact fantasy, and in that fantasy the force does exist, and it's effect on people can't necessarily be explained away in 'real' terms. Otherwise, we might start suggesting that the Jedi's physical abilities stem solely from extreme levels of fitness training, and that their force powers can be explained by some form of telekinetic ability.

    A level of 'reality' and 'real world' emotional qualities in the characters makes for more empathy and identification from those watching/reading the story, but in a fantasy universe, 'magical elements' like The Force and it's effect on the personalities and psychology of characters should also not be discounted so quickly.

    I think the portrayals of Gollum/Frodo in LOTR were pretty effective examples of people twisted and warped by magical influences, Gollum in particular had an extended lifespan as a result of his exposure to the ring, but over this period, all his humanity had been stripped away and the to bear the ring had become his only motivation and remaining reason to exist.
  13. maryaminx Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2005
    star 1
    Yes, but in all fantasy you have to have a measure of reality in order for it to be well received. As far as your argument goes, Minion of Palpatine, remember that others bore the ring without it driving them to murder and insanity. The power did have some hold on them, but it was ulitmately their own will and personality that drove them to do the things they did, not the ring. (Besides, why are we debating LOTR in SW?)

    I think a major argument in SW is "does the power corrupt the bearer or the bearer corrupt the power?" Jedi philosophy has flipped back and forth, so obviously no true answer can be gleaned either from debate or canon.

    LLL, you put forth a very convincing arguement, but you ignore all aspects of the supernatural, just as Minion_of_Palpatine tossed aside psychological reasons for his behaviour. I believe it has to be a combination of both the dark side corruption and whatever mental trauma Palpatine experienced.
  14. cka3ka Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2003
    star 1
    Ooff. Interesting discussion and responses.. I think I'll have to respond one post at a time. Firstly in response to Herman:

    Essentially, after seizing the throne, there's no longer any need to have two personae, so Sidious stays and the Chancellor goes away forever.

    No longer needing to be patient and cunning, Palpy can be brutal as often as he sees fit.


    Yet, is this true? I guess this works if the ultimate goal for Sidious is to gain power and then wreck as much horror and vengeance on the galaxy at large as he can. Which makes him--in our RL terms--an absolute maniac more so than any RL comparisons.

    However, if his goal is simply to consolidate power and keep himself as ruler, it still doesn't make sense. It is Palpatine's standing as a champion of justice and his outstanding morals that brought him his power. I can't imagine that he didn't craft this image on purpose and wield it as a scapel to gain his position as Emperor.

    As Emperor, he throws this carefully crafted image/tool away and then decides to utilize an entirely new technique--brutality and fear--as a means to stay in power. By throwing away his kindly chancellor persona he is eroding his own power which is a very un-sith thing like to do. That is what seems strange to me... Sidious throws away what works for something fun and new. For such a seasoned and seemingly intelligent politician it seems strange.

    Then again, I guess that makes him all the more evil and a better villian.

    CK
  15. cka3ka Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2003
    star 1
    BAKER'S 12 QUALITIES OF HAPPINESS
    1- Love
    2- Optimism
    3- Courage
    4- A sense of freedom
    5- Proactivity
    6- Security
    7- Health
    8- Spirituality
    9- Altruism
    10- Perspective
    11- Humor
    12- Purpose


    If we relied on this list for happiness, I'd say Palpatine actually meets many of its qualities.

    Love: He certainly is loved by millions. As the Supreme chancellor, he is well respected and even Yoda and Mace Windu consider him an outstanding person... and a friend!

    Courage: His sheer audacity at taking on the Jedi shows that he is extremely courageous. Anyone of the Jedi would kill him if they knew what he was and he walks amongst them with ease.

    Optimism: No idea on this one, but he has to be optimistic if he thinks he is going to take on the galaxy and the Jedi... Alone no less. Plus, he suffers set backs and he just regroups and comes back for more. I certainly don't think he intended maul to die. He takes failure in hand and plows on. That's optimism to me.

    Freedom: He's the Chancellor. He's got more freedom than most people. He's got money, he's got power. IF he suddenly quit being a Sith Master and Chancellor I think he'd be able to live comfy for the rest of his life.

    Proactivity: He's pretty proactive for his goals. He corrupts people, starts the clone wars, etc...

    Security: He's the Chancellor, and he's pretty powerful to boot. Also that he even initiates his attempt to take over the galaxy hints that he is pretty confident in himself.

    Health: No signs that he is ailing or sick. ROTS also confirms his health.

    Spirituality: He's got the Dark Side and the Sith Religion. Seems he's got belief and strong Faith.

    Altruism: Ok he's lacking this... though he does seem to preach it.

    Perspective: He has an excellent perspective on things. He mediates many disputes and makes people happy in general. That's why he got elected Chancellor.

    Humor: I guess this is unknown.

    Purpose: Rule the Galaxy, kill the Jedi. He's got a purpose and he sticks to it.

    ....

    I think according to Doctor Baker, Palps is a pretty happy fellow.


    Then again, now that I think about Palps does seem to be pretty happy in ROTJ. He's got everything and he goes around doing what he wants and what amuses him... including throwing away an entire deathstar and thousands of lives in order to get a new apprentice.
  16. LLL Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2000
    star 4
    Interesting responses. Thanks everybody!!

    As far as the influence of the Force ... I don't really leave that out but I interpret it differently than most folks might.

    Take a deep breath and get ready for this one. I think that the Force is ... God.

    Yes, that's right.

    But let me elaborate. Most religious constructs see God as a kind of boss, a heavenly old guy with a white beard and a staff who created everything, runs everything, and judges us, meting out punishment and reward depending on how well we please him or don't please him. I go with the construct that says that once upon a time, God basically got bored with Itself, because there was only God at that time and nothing else. If there is nothing but perfection, you can't KNOW that you are perfection because there is nothing imperfect to measure yourself against. So God broke itself apart into matter, and everything in the world, is a piece of God in a particular form. This means that there is nothing that isn't God. While God has any supernatural powers that it wants to have, in smaller particulate forms these things sort of get shut off, so it can be the thing it's supposed to be. A door, for example. It doesn't need to sense, create, or control anything. It just needs to be hard wood with a handle.

    In this construct, there is the created mass of God ... the world, with its earth, water, air, people, bacteria, fungi, plants, and animals ... and there is the uncreated mass. Part of God that hasn't chosen to differentiate itself into anything yet.

    If you apply this construct to the SW universe, that uncreated mass ... is the Force. And the uncreated mass does have a consciousness and therefore preferences at times, but always defers its preferences to those of the created parts of Itself, which separated into things and beings for reasons of their own. After all, God is all-powerful and needs nothing, so It can afford to allow the parts of Itself that have chosen to limit their being, talents, and perspective, to exert their own will.

    In the SW universe, there are some beings that are advanced and evolved enough to begin to display once again the talents and abilities God has. So you get the ability to move objects with the mind, to change matter and energy from one form to another at will, to sense the future, to sense the emotions of others. These individuals are the ones we call "Force-sensitive." And they are using their abilities as they themselves choose to.

    All the Force-sensitive individuals we see in the GFFA have pretty much the same abilities. How they choose to use them is up to them. If I see the uncreated mass -- the Force -- as God, and God as all-powerful, completely at choice, needing nothing, but allowing the lesser outparcelings of Itself free reign to act at free choice, then the Force wouldn't direct or corrupt anyone, or in any way affect the power of free choice of that being.

    So many times we speak of the "dark side" or say, "The Devil made me do it." The way I see the world, that's just our wish to avoid responsibility for the things we did, indeed, choose to do. When Yoda says, beware of the dark side, it's easier and more seductive, I believe he is speaking more about habits and thought patterns than about an actual entity that enters and takes a person over. Once that happens, it's not about free choice anymore, and I'm not that enthused by a SW story, or any story, about robots who are simply puppets of some larger figure.

    I realize all that may deeply offend some people, but I'm just trying to explain how I see the SW universe. I think that when George wrote it, he was trying to make sense of his universe as well, and I do see glimmers of ideas like this.

    OK, I'm done trying to explain that. I'll do the happiness thing in my next post.
  17. LLL Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2000
    star 4
    On to the next subject ... Palpatine and happiness.

    I scored Palpatine a little differently than you did on several counts. I'm going to save love for last, because I have more to discuss on that point.

    As for the others,

    Courage: I agree there, I don't think Palpy has much problem in this department. He is terribly afraid of death, but as I don't know of anyone who isn't, including the Jedi, I see no reason to score him down on that account.

    Optimism: For the most part I do see Palpatine as being fairly optimistic. He does have his problems, here, though. He seems to think he's going to cheat death and rule for a thousand years, and it seems to be very important to him. If/when that appears to be in doubt, I imagine his discomfort over a shorter future than he had in mind is likely to cast a very large shadow over his sense of optimism.

    Another consideration is how you define optimism. If you define optimism as always expecting to get what you want, then the above stands. But I've also heard another definition of optimism, put forward by those who aren't so confident that things will always turn out the way they would wish. Optimism, say these people, is the knowledge that even when you DON'T get what you want, there is still an outcome there that will work for your highest good. If that's how you define optimism, I wouldn't call Palpy an optimist at all!

    Freedom: I agree with you there. Palpy has more freedom than anyone else in his galaxy.

    Proactivity: I think he's got this one sewn up as well. Although, I think perhaps he's not quite self-aware enough to be cognizant of exactly what ALL of his true needs are, and in these areas he fails to be proactive. For instance, I think Palpy could certainly use true friendship, and for about ten years, he has it in Anakin Skywalker. But he fails to realize that in lying to Anakin as he has and putting him in the impossible position of having to betray his friends to save his wife, Anakin will never really forgive him for that, and he's just lost the person who's loved him the most. So there's an instance in which he hasn't been proactive in providing for a need he has ... probably because he thinks it isn't important.

    Security: I think Palp is pretty secure.

    Health: After that terrible lightsaber injury?? And look how rapidly he's aging in AOTC. This comes mostly from the EU, but there it states that so much negative emotion is aging Palpatine rapidly and making him sick. In Dark Empire, he discovers he's dying from some dread disease before he's discovered the secret of eternal life, so he clones himself and transfers his soul from clone to clone as he becomes ill and dies. I think there is evidence that Palpatine, particularly after being elected Chancellor, is not very physically healthy.

    Spirituality: Palpatine has A spirituality. But it isn't one that enables him to live in harmony with other beings or to be vulnerable in any way. So his beliefs leave him without any real closeness or warmth in his life.

    Altruism: Definitely scores a zero on this one.

    Perspective: Palpatine is capable of very good and very poor perspective. His better examples got him into the Chancellor's podium; his worse examples blew up the planet Alderaan and punished Dash Rendar's whole family over an honest accident (Shadows of the Empire). I think that the happier Palpatine is, the better he's able to put events in good perspective; but when he is unhappy, look out!

    Humor: Palpatine does show occasional humor in the EU, at least.

    Purpose: He does have a sense of purpose, but he fails to enlarge it when he needs to. He achieves his first purpose -- killing the Jedi and becoming Emperor, but once he's there he needs a new purpose. He decides that it's: Hanging Onto My Power No Matter What And Overdosing On Power And Pleasure In Order To Try To Make Myself Happy. I don't think it works very well, as in ROTJ he seems so cold and full of hate. If it makes you happy to murder your dearest friend's child right in front of him, how hap
  18. maryaminx Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2005
    star 1
    That is a very interesting philosophy, LLL. It explains why you view the Force as you do, and, in the world of the Jedi, it makes complete sense.

    I'll try to explain what I meant, however. You (and forgive me if I am wrong) seem to be saying that the force has little or no influence over the couse of events, but rather bows to the stronger will of the created entities. What I am saying is that no matter how small the ifluence, it does affect and change things, in the way that a "butterfly fluttering its wings in China can cause a tornado in Kansas."

    As far as the 12 qualities go, I'll try to keep my answers short.

    Love-- The love of the masses is vague and general. What a person needs close, personal affection. While Palpatine had this at one time--in the form of Anakin and his apprentices--he no longer has any close friends.

    Optimism-- Just because a person believes his plan will succeed, it does not mean they have a positive outlook. While I cannot cite any evidence that he was either, I believe him to be a pessimist.

    Courage-- I do not view him as being particularly courageous. Once again, I have no evidence in support of my argument.

    A sense of freedom-- He obviously had perfect freedom.

    Proactivity-- He was very proactive until, of course, he had nothing more to be proactive about.

    Security-- While secure in most things, he was costantly worrying that Vader or some of the Moffs would usurp his throne. He had security in most things, just not in retention of power.

    Health-- His health was obviously failing, and we have no evidence that he moved into any clones before Dark Empire.

    Spirituality-- Like LLL said, while he did have a form of spirituality, the religion of power is not particularly fulfilling.

    Altruism-- By the very definition of being a Sith, he was not altruistic.

    Perspective-- He had a very narrow perspective, and did nothing to broaden it.

    Humor-- Err... I can't bring myself to answer this one. Although in his interactions with Anakin, he did seem to have a form of gentle humour. It also could have just been show, like everything else about him...

    Purpose-- He did have a purpose early in life, but once he achieved it he did not seek out another.

    I scored him very low on most of these, obviously.
  19. cka3ka Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2003
    star 1
    I'd like to make a point on the issue about the love of the masses not bringing happiness as compared to the love of a few close individuals. I think we can identify with palps on this very much. After all, as Fanfic writers we all want the love of the masses do we not?

    I mean think about it for a second. Be honest with yourselves. Do review responses not make you glow inside? Do you not feel a simple pleasure in seeing that many people have responded to your story? Is there not disappointment when you post an update and NO ONE has responded at all?

    The love of the masses is a power thing. And I'm not sure that the love of a single adoring person really is subsitute for it or even something that brings MORE happiness. Perhaps they are apples and oranges perhapts not.

    Think if you would give up all your hundreds of readers for one or two readers that just was close to you. Would you? A hard question is it not?

    And this is what makes Palps such a great character. Who else can make you look at yourself like this? :)

    Ciao,
    Cka3ka
  20. LLL Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2000
    star 4
    Yeah, I guess the uncreated mass can have some influence ... but I don't believe it takes over for individual will.

    You know, Palpatine seems to WANT the love of the masses. If he doesn't care about that, then why does he crank up this propaganda machine once he becomes Emperor, to make himself appear all sweetness and light? He's got the people's obedience -- by threatening them with the Death Star.

    But while most of us live anonymous lives and are still happy, I don't know how any one can be completely without any close, special relationships and still be happy.

    I get a lot of thing about Palpy, but I really DON'T get that "love of the masses" thing. Palpatine's a Sith. Why does he care? Does it really fit, or is this just a mistake of the EU?

    Anyone??
  21. maryaminx Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2005
    star 1
    Adoration by the general public is a great thing, but it just doesn't cut it in the fulfilment department. As far as Palpatine goes, the Sith were in hiding for most of their history, so it seems like an unlikely goal.

    And besides--canon keeps switching back and forth between the empire being loved and it being evil. In situation A there'd be love, and the Rebellion would have a hard time of it. In B Palpatine would be ruling by fear, so no love of the masses.
  22. LLL Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2000
    star 4
    Are you kidding me??!

    I thought it was generally reviled. I mean, when you look at the movies ...

    I never read all those EU books. I'd flip through one to find specific information I needed, but read all of them? Nah.
  23. LLL Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2000
    star 4
    OK, this thread has gone dormant long enough.

    Discussion question for the week:

    If Palpatine is capable of change, what do you think it would take to get him to unchoose his evil ways?

    -------------------------------------------------------

    "You want to go home and rethink your life."
    --Obi-Wan Kenobi
  24. maryaminx Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2005
    star 1
    I really don't know. It would all depend on just how he came to be a Sith Lord, and (so far) nobody knows the answer to that question.

    I'll try to write some examples.

    1. If, say, he was taken as a child and raised in the ways of the Sith, there would be absolutely no redemtion, considering just how far he had gone.

    2. If he turned to the dark side in order to get revenge for the death of a loved one, perhaps a "Christmas Carol" visitation would set him straight.

    3. If he turned to the dark side to gain power, I don't really see any possible redemtion for him either.

    We're trying to make big assumptions with little information. And the "unbeliever" in me just wants to ask if the horrendous change in character between the PT and the OT isn't just an effect of George's meddling.
  25. cka3ka Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2003
    star 1
    I think maryaminx is onto something with the Scrooge comparison. I had never thought about it that way until the Christmas Carol response was brought up.

    You can see Sidious kind of like a scrooge but instead of money, he covets power....

    *

    I personally don't think that Palpatine was taken as a child to be trained as a hateful angry person. I don't think he was raised that way either... perhaps something in his life jaded him, but Palps seems to be a very well adjusted person. He's smooth and charming... well spoken and well educated. It's kind of hard to believe that some SithLord stole him away and trained him in the darkside and him retaining all these traits.

    I think every single Sith other than Palpatine is a freak in some way or the other... they are deformed, rabidly crazy, consumed with lust for power or revenge, or some other negative that an author can concieve to divorce them from their humanity.

    So, I think if Palpatine has a rational mind he would be very much like Vader when presented with such decisions as choosing his son over his mentor. I think at any given time, Palps has the potential to realize 'the light.'

    Of course, that's if you think the darkside is all that bad in the first place. :)

    CK
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