Characters Palpatine characterization thread: UP FOR ADOPTION!

LLL? Still breathing?

On a random note, in order to have something to talk about, I named Palpatine "Césaro" in my fic. It seemed appropriate.

 

Where is the index? And also, I have managed to write a Palpatine Humor! It is called Palpatines True Side, A Look ar His Blog.


-The Scummy-

 

PM it to LLL, or just post a link here. I've read it before, by the way. It's really funny.

 

Thanks!

-The Scummy-

 

Hola guys,

I'm a newbie here. Finally! A Palpatine thread!!
I'm home. And I thought I was alone about obsessing with him.

I'm am looking for some Palpatine fanfiction. Some good, non-slash Palpatine fanfiction.

I have browsed though all three Palpatine/Sidious/Ian Yahoo groups
and SPEB.net and found some Palpatine fan fiction, but there wasn't
much. Here they are basicly:

http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/allaboutian
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/speb
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/speb-fic

FanFiction.Net and AdultFanfiction.Net hasn't much to offer on Palpatine :-(

So, here I ask you - do you know of any places with good (non-slash)
Palpatine fan fiction? I know (as soon as the site will be up) TFN has
some fan fiction, but that's not..err..NC-R rated, isn't it?





--Selina

 

*laughs* No, I think they pretty much stick to PG-13 and under. And there are a few Palpatine fics, but not many. It's probably because he's so hard to write because you can never be quite sure of his motivations (see above thread.) Other people simply hate him.

Sorry I can't be of any assistance.

 

Sorry, I've been starting a HUGE Palpy fan fic that gripped me and wouldn't let me go.

It's in the Saga under "Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil."

Maybe when I can quit writing I can actually compile the Palpy index.

 

Palpy is evil that way. It's odd that as much as I enjoy reading a good Palpy fic, I've never had the urge to write one. He's never been a character in any fic I've posted (though he does appear briefly in one that isn't finished).

 

Wow, I didn't think Palpy had so many fans. I think appreciating that stylish, elegant megalomaniac really is a measure of refinement...or something.

Seeing as how Palpatine is one of my favorite Star Wars characters (I love the villains, ye know), I had to write something about him and, wouldntcha know it, it just happens to be the first Star Warsy thing I've written.

Doors to Destiny. It's in my signature to. Hopefully it'll be a good read for the real Palpy-fanatics. I am merely a humble fan. So that's fanatic minus the -atic. I don't have an attic anyway.

 

You know, I was just reading that one.

It looks like you have a good premise, but I had problems getting through all of it. It's a good idea, though.

We need a new discussion question in here.

So:

Why are you a Palpy fan? What about him appeals?

 

Anybody?

I'll go first ...

I think the thing that got me about Palpy was the red herring quote from GL before TPM came out where he said that Palpy was going to be a good guy in that film. Before, when all you saw was the ugly old Emperor, I of course hated him. But after I read that, I became very curious, salivating at the idea of another Vader-like fall for him.

But then, right before the film came out, I had a horrible thought ... started comparing pics of Ian and Sidious and ... guessed that Palpatine was Sidious before TPM was even released. Gulp! So I spent that whole midnight showing looking to see if I was right or not. When I was I think I was traumatized for life, because Palpy was SO bad, and Ian was SO handsome and adorable.

So I've been trying to rationalize it ever since. I mean, a GREAT actor like Ian, with those eyes and that voice ... and a character like Palpy, if he had some depth to him, would make a FABULOUS story, better than Darth Vader.

So I'm obsessed ...

 

I think Palpatine inspires the same kind of awe that all masters of their art do. He's simply so good at what he does that you can't help but admire him.

I didn't like Palpatine in the OT, I will admit that. But when the prequel trilogy came out, and there the evil old Emperor was, not quite so old and evil *cough* anymore.

His rise to power fascinates me. One man, in total control of an entire galaxy, at little cost to him besides patience.

Besides my admiration for his abilities, he's such a wonderful villain, rarely encountered anymore in fiction.

 

I was a fan of Palpatine since I saw the orangutan woman in ESB, but that's a different story.

Personally, I've always loved villains - especially the overblown, psychologically deep villains in, say, Shakespeare. The one thing you have to remember about villains is that they are, despite their unquestionably evil ways, just as human as the "good" guys. A lot of Star Wars villains have been very "cool" (i.e. Darth Maul, Boba Fett) but not really had any depth at all. I still love Maul, Fett, Grievous, Dooku, and obviously Vader, but Palpy was always an evil genius. Ian McDiarmid's performance in RotS, though some may think it was corny, was perfect reinforcement of this. A lot of people seem to think that he was being a bit too melodramatic in the Mace vs. Palps seen, but I thought that his level of megalomaniacal intensity was just what was needed to convey that he was finally coming out of an entire life of subtlety and planning. For as long as he'd been alive (presumably 40+ years, but I don't know the exact dates), he's been controlling most of the galaxy.

Palpatine's been playing all sides against the middle, in a manner of speaking. He controls the Separatists, the Sith, the Republic, and, to some extent, the Jedi (through manipulation of Anakin at least). He's really a complete monster, but he's literally planned out everything that happened in the galaxy since he became Senator of Naboo. Despite this, even though the audience knows he's the worst villain of all, Senator/Chancellor Palps is not bad, he just seems ambitious. He also seems like a mentor, and someone who knows what's going on in the government in a time of corruption. Only at the end of AotC do we really get the hint that "Hey, that Clone Army might be good to win the war, but why is that music playing in a minor key?"

Ian McDiarmid himself ruminated on Palpy's character once, comparing him to the Shakespearean villain Iago, in Othello (this may already be in this thread somewhere, but it's interesting and bears repeating):

"Everything he does is an act of pure hypocrisy, and that's interesting to play. I suppose it's rather like playing Iago. All the characters in the play -- including Othello until the end -- think that 'Honest Iago' is a decent guy doing his job, and he's quite liked. But at the same time there's a tremendous evil subconscious in operation. There's a moment in one scene of the new film where tears almost appear in his eye. These are crocodile tears, but for all those in the movie, and perhaps watching the movie itself, they'll see he is apparently moved -- and of course, he is. He can just do it. He can, as it were, turn it on. And I suppose for him, it's also a bit of a turn-on -- the pure exercise of power is what he's all about. That's the only thing he's interested in and the only thing that can satisfy him -- which makes him completely fascinating to play, because it is an evil soul. He is more evil than the devil. At least Satan fell -- he has a history, and it's one of revenge."

Oh, I think I'm rambling again.

 

I am so pleased to have found this thread! I've been fascinated by Palpatine for a good long time. I've been toying with a fanfic, but real life keeps interrupting. Anyhow, I had come across something some time ago and after reading a few interviews McDiarmid had given, it clicked. There's a sort of subset of APD (antisocial personality disorder) called Machiavellianism. It's sort of a cross of what used to be called a sociopath and a narcissist. There's no sure sense of whether this is genetic or learned behavior, but from what I've read, people seem to be leaning toward the latter. People with this particular disorder often are very charismatic, very intelligent, and a strong sense of entitlement. Like anything else, there are degrees of functionality. The more functional ones tend to end up in positions of authority (medicine, psychiatry, politics). Treatment options are limited and often unsuccessful as they generally don't believe there is anything wrong with them.

Obviously I don't want to write a story that reads like it would come out of the DSM-IV, but I have a feeling I could do something with this kind of a character background in mind. Does this make any sense at all?

 

It makes sense to me, though I never have heard of this disorder. I alway imagined that Palpatine's motives were far deeper than just being "messed up in the head." Everytime I watch the Prequels and even the Originals, Palpatine always struck me as the kind of guy who had everything all planned out. Well he does, but I mean, if his actions are soo well timed and put together, his motives should be equally as well timed. I don't know what the deeper reason is and if I were to actually right a story about it, I'd write from somebody else's POV besides Palpatine's. Though there could be traces of the Machiavellianism, you mention... Still like to see where the idea goes...

 

OOO! LLL! Doing some shameless self-promotion are we? Shame on you!

*Pulls a on a "I love the Republic" face and pretends she hasn't been doing just that in the FIGS thread*

***

Writing Palpatine? Personally, I have never found that hard. He loves power. To me, he always seemed to enjoy pretending to be nice just as much as actually being nasty. So, in terms of searching for depth in Palpatine... I think he has incredible depth - just not necessarily the kind of depth you're looking for. Something utterly monstrous must have happened in his childhood to make him the way he is. He does, I think, understand kindness and compassion, but only as tools to use when appropriate. He is a munipulator of such high degree that his own feelings (not to mention those of others) no longer actually matter - he can be anytihing he wants if it will give him what he really wants, which is power.

I think Palpatine is filling a void. It's a great gaping hole inside him where his love and humanity should be. But because he has never experianced love, or perhaps it was torn from him.. etc, etc (Make up your own backstory!) he wants to fill this hole with power - because he has been taught that power and control are everything. Extreme desire for control comes from lack of control - so obviously he has experianced weakness and helplessness. Fear. No. 1 Dark Side step - he has experianced all these things.

But by the time we actually see Palpatine in the prequels he is a mature Sith Master - the incarnation of evil. I don't believe in PURE evil, because that is impossible to achieve while actually being human. But all Palpatine cares about is himself, at the same time his is a path of great loniliness - he is prepared to betray everyone. I think he must feel this lack of human contact, but understand that it is a sacrifice he must make.

This is what makes writing Palpatine hard for writers. He has almost no concept of attachment, therefore it will only end in tragedy for the other characters. If characters are to suvive at all, they must be useful to Palpatine. I don't believe he has much personal conflict either. He knows what he is and what he is not and if he has some illusions they are the product of his past experiance and vertually nothing will shift his point of view.

Another factor that could hamper people is that he is one of the cleverest people in the galaxy. In my fanfiction I have him dictating to around seven sercretaries at once, leaving a few words with one and then moving on to the next without losing his place. I borrowed this from Julius Caesar actually - who did it himself. So Palpatine is much smarter than pratically any of his contemporaries.

His colossal arrogance. He believes he can get away with anything if he puts his mind to it - hell, he probably can, but it is his biggist character flaw and ought to be exploited as much as possible!

Ahem... I could go on all night but I won't bore anybody. I have written a AnakinPalpatine fanfic on Fanfiction.net called a Room with a View. It exploits Palpatine's desire for power and Anakin's fiery nature (no pun intended).

LLL - I'm updating tomorrow night... Or should be. My boyfriend is hampering production efforts by cutting my time!

*****

The disorder theory sounds about right, I've studied Machiavelli and although I had no idea that there was an actual disorder named after him, I can definately see it. But there is usually an explanation for everthing (Like Hannibal Lecter's baby sister being eaten by staving men) and Palpatine has obviously suffered truama - possibly just through his Sith training. Like Machiavelli, Palpatine has an intimate understanding of human nature and is yet somehow unaware of his own difference from others. He fails to see way everyone should not behave similarly, in a way which to him seems the only logical course.

 

Amen to both of you. My fic is all about exploring the psychology of Palpatine ... and basically anyone who acts in an antisocial manner.

My bf is here so I won't post more now, but he's going back to MI tomorrow (sob!)

So I'll have a few more weeks with my other "bf," Palpy ...

 

It makes a PILE of sense.

Due to a pile of personal problems in my own life, I have read and read and read and READ umpteen psychology books and new age references, from Neale Donald Walsch and Wayne Dyer to books on obsessive love, learned helplessness, family dynamics, and on and on. My most useful reference for Palpatine, however, is a book called Inside the Criminal Mind by a psychologist who works with criminals right here in Virginia named Samuel Samenow.

What I think is going on with Palpatine, and all people who gratify themselves at the expense of others:

Absolutely right!! But we differ in a few particulars:

Here is one. Samenow shows that many criminals do have a perfectly normal background, with loving parents and all the rest. Everything has gone right, but still they've gone bad. It happens. These people can have loving wives and families, and still cheat, enough money and still steal ... you name it. Even when they haven't undergone any particular trauma or extreme hardship, they are still users.

Right again. People who keep doing unhealthy things to extreme -- workaholism, alcoholism, the pursuit of money, whatever -- do so because they have come to believe that happiness is based on whatever it is that they are pursuing. They reach whatever goal they set for themselves. But they find they still aren't happy. So instead of concluding that they were originally in error, and they really need to balance out their life in other ways, instead they decide that the problem is that they just haven't made enough money yet. Or achieved enough power yet. Or they need to be still drunker more often. Or whatever. So they go doggedly back to the One Thing they are convinced if they just have in sufficient quantity will make them happy, make their imbalance worse, become MORE unhappy, go back at it, make the imbalance even WORSE, etc.

Somewhere up there in the thread is a discussion of Baker's 12 Qualities of Happiness. To be happy you need a balance among the 12. But Palpy and many, many people in this galaxy don't believe that's true -- and live a trance of trying to fill the areas in which they are deficient with the areas in which they are not deficient.

But here's another place we differ:

From what I understand, these criminal minds who use people for their own gratification, even those they profess to love, even if it causes these others extreme suffering, do so out of a deep-seated need to see themselves as "special," superior, not subject to the rules "regular" people must follow. They have an inflated self-concept. I'm sure we're familiar with the sort of character in a story or a movie who has some goal they feel they are worthless unless they reach. Becoming a doctor for example, or winning the love of some romantic male lead type. And when this character doesn't achieve their goal they feel worthless and deeply ashamed of themself. Think of some goal you had that you were embarrassed to admit to when you fell short of. It felt like you weren't good enough, right? Well, take this feeling and multiply by 10,000, and you have some vague conception of where Palpatine is at. It's a very, very fragile and sensitive self-concept th

 

Intresting thread... I'm toying with the idea of a young Palpy fic, though I'm not sure when I'll get around to writing it. But one thought I had is that all people, including Jedi and Sith have a strong desire to be immortal in some way. Some basic ways we try to do this would be...

1) Creating or discovering something that might outlive us. Artists, writers/storytellers, scientists, etc are doing this. Sure what we create might be forgotten in a few years, but we still have some hope deep down inside that we might create at least one thing that lasts.

2) Having and/or raising kids. Even if adopted, children are going to be influenced by their parents so something's carried on.

3) Teaching. This one is vitally important to both Jedi and Sith. Both want their students to be better in some way than they are. I think raising a apprentice that meets the ideals of the order is a big part of how both groups measure success. Even Palaptine is genuninely proud and happy to have a great apprentice that can follow in his footsteps and potentially even surpass him. The difference may be that a Sith will arrange for the death of an apprentice if they are unworthy or if there's another possibility with more potential.

And then there is the blue-ghostie sort of immortality which is even more tempting to Palpatine. I think Palpy knew it was possible but never figured it out and this irritated him to no end. Perhaps he knew that it was connected to the living forces and took apprentices who had innate talent in that area (Maul?), had studied extensively in the area (Dooku?), or had some mysterious origin (Anakin & his kids). But my thought is that in the end all his efforts fail because in order to become a blue-ghostie, you actually have to have a shared love and connection with a living being. I mean Luke wants Obi-Wan, Yoda, and reformed Anakin to stay around and talk after they die. Can you see Vader (or anyone) wanting Palpatine to still be around to chat after he was dead?

 

Not sure if this helps you or not. In the material on APD and the Machiavellian thing that I've read, some of the research suggests that occasionally the person gets dealt a big reality check and they realize that there is something wrong with them. It has to be something major, because most of these people are like this from early childhood on and have all kinds of coping mechanisms. Some of them even try to seek out treatment or to change. The problem is that usually their way of rationalizing their behavior reasserts itself and then they're back to thinking there is nothing wrong.

So that's one possibility. Could make for a nice dramatic story.

Or he's aware all along that he's "different" (the guy who wrote the ROTS novelization did this with Dooku, albeit poorly). Maybe it's a niggling, half-buried/half-surfaced realization.

My own fanfic idea was that he meets someone who intrigues him and that he is attracted to. Although she possesses some legitimate qualities that he admires, he projects onto her a belief system that she doesn't actually have (eek, now that I look at this, it's exactly what Anakin does with Padme. May have to rethink this). The conflict comes when she begins to realize just how screwed up Palpy is, and how she's going to get out of the relationship. I need to play with it some more, but that's it essentially.

 

It's really interesting that you said that, because this is exactly what Samenow says also.

What Sereine is trying to do in my fanfic, is provide the BIG reality check ... without making Palpatine feel so unsafe at a point when he can still do some damage that he feels he needs to aggress again to protect himself. Because, as we've seen, when he feels unsafe enough to need to lash out, it's bad, bad, bad.

The part I don't quite get, is how to have Palpy handle his lonliness in a realistic fashion before the big wake-up call occurs. There is a lack in his life which he feels in some fashion. But is it more realistic to have him completely conscious of it, such that he knows that he feels bad, that it is a lack of something, and exactly what it is he's lacking? Because if he did that, he'd be consciously thinking, I'm lonely, there's no one to share my thoughts with. Or is it more realistic to have him register unhappiness, but put it down to something else? Something like, If I only knew that I would never fall from power, never lose control, never suffer, never die, never again have to be afraid of anything painful ever happening to me, then I could finally be happy.

Hmmm.

I may have answered my own question.

 

Are you planning on having her be aware of his problem? There is a lot of interesting stuff out there on the web about what it's like to be related to/involved with/married to a narcissist. Support groups and such.

I suspect that the second approach is the more realistic one. These people project, project, project. The problem is never with them. It's always someone else's fault. They don't take well to criticism (e.g. that bit in ROTJ where Palpy looks furious when Luke tells him "your overconfidence is your weakness" comes to mind. Hell, the whole Sith philosophy is tailormade for him. They're not supposed to feel compassion; he has none. They're supposed to channel their rage and hatred; those would probably be his dominant emotions. They're all about power; he's all about power.

Where he differs from someone with this kind of illness, is that he's been shown consistently to be a dedicated and hard-working. Most people who have APD or NPD are about taking the easy way out all of the time. The lower-functioning ones can't hold onto a job, have problems with money, etc. They lie, they cheat, they steal without a second's thought. What really intrigues me is that for the most part, Palpatine doesn't lie outright. Even if his machinations result in chaos, ultimately, his goal is order.

 

I think you are right.

The problem with having Sereine in some sort of formal help like this is that a.) in the years intervening since her relationship with Palpatine, she has gotten married ... to Finis Valorum, natch! and b.) the entire discipline of psychology seems to be nonexistent in the Star Wars universe. She's known Palpy for some 22 years, been in love with him all of that time (although when he breaks off their relationship that becomes latent enough for her to marry someone else), and has had many years of experience and observation, both with him and in the political arena. She's basically flying on instinct.

Actually, I have the discussion on how these people process and handle their discomfort (actually, how all people do) with what's missing in their life. It's the Baker book, What Happy People Know. I just need to go back and take a closer look.

I've thought for a long time that Palpatine was basically a high-functioning form of some antisocial personality disorder. I think he differs in that some of it is also trained in by the sect in which he was raised, and that sect considers itself righteously persecuted in some ways.

Basically, they've taken a born thug and made him into a thug with an excuse.

 

Wow this has been deep. I've been wandering the 3SA, so it comes as a bit of a shock.

I think that theory is right on. But is the "disorder" genetic (ie, born with it) or brought about by some major trauma, either emotional or physical?

Not quite following in the line of discussion, but I read a book the other day that stated that one in twenty-five people is a sociopath. Sociopath meaning having no conscience, of course, not murderer-on-the-rampage. I thought this was very interesting and might add to the topic.

 

I lean toward "learned," and I'll post more about it when I get back from the pool ... because all of my Palpy stuff is currently in the car, waiting to be read by the pool.

But if you're interested in *part* of the theory, I have posted it in

here

Be sure to read down for a bit, because it takes me a while to learn to state things so that the people reading get what I actually mean and what I don't mean.

(Except they still don't.) *sigh*

I just don't think I can repost all that again here.