Characters Palpatine characterization thread: UP FOR ADOPTION!

I don't think there's a consensus of opinion on the matter. There is some evidence that early childhood experiences have a lot to do with it. I've seen some things about children of narcissists developing narcissism. Apparently children who have a particularly traumatic early childhood often develop some form of APD as a defense mechanism, which would make sense, ain't nobody else looking out for them and in order to survive, they learn to do whatever they have to do without conscience or compunction. I think the experts run into two problems: sufferers rarely seek treatment on their own. And even if they do or they're dealing with the ones who are committed--the APD/NPD sufferer is highly uncooperative and is skilled at lying and deception.

From what I've read, most of the people involed with an APD/NPD person are too. There's little out there of substance to help them. I was just thinking you might find something of use in some of their accounts of dealing with an APD/NPD person. I've read some of your other stories, can't wait to read yours.

 

That would make interesting reading, if you have any links.

 

OK, I'm back.

Reasons I think the problem is learned:

I quote again what I said from Samenow earlier, that

From what I understand, these criminal minds who use people for their own gratification, even those they profess to love, even if it causes these others extreme suffering, do so out of a deep-seated need to see themselves as "special," superior, not subject to the rules "regular" people must follow. They have an inflated self-concept.

or,

They have an inflated self-concept

because they have

a deep-seated need to see themselves as "special," superior, not subject to the rules "regular" people must follow.

But why do they have such a deep-seated need that it cancels out the terrible suffering of other people that they cause, and they are able to watch the suffering they cause and still believe it confims their worth as above others's worth?

Some of the New Agers say that the root cause is a spiritual problem, or a crisis of spiritual understanding. The person has so deep a conviction that Only The Strong Survive that that is all that counts.

The problem, say some New Agers, is the rampant spiritual teaching that God loves only some of us, and not others, and the ones He doesn't like go to Hell and suffer miserably for all eternity after they die. And that in order to avoid this fate you have to be superior to other beings.

Here's a quote from Neale Donald Walsch (and Coauthor), in Communion With God. Let's let Neale tell it ...

This is how the human race has it constructed:

"We are born into a hostile world, run by a God who has things He wants us to do and things He wants us not to do, and will punish us with everlasting damnation if we don't get the two right.

Our first experience in Life is separation from our mother, the Source of our Life. This creates the context for our entire reality, which we experience as one of separation from the Source Of All Life.

We are not only separate from all Life but from everything else in Life. Everything that exists, exists separate from us. And we are separate from everything else that exists. We do not want it this way, but this is the way it is. We wish it were otherwise, and strive for it to be otherwise.

We seek to experience Oneness again with all things and especially with each other. We may not know why, exactly, yet it seems almost instinctual. It feels like the natural thing to do. The only problem is, there does not seem to be enough of the other to satisfy us. No matter what the other thing is that we want, we cannot seem to get enough of it. We cannot get enough love, we cannot get enough time, we cannot get enough money.l We cannot get enough of whatever it is we think we need in order to be happy and fulfilled. The moment we think that we have enough, we decide that we want more.

Since there is "not enough" of whatever it is we think we need to be happy, we must "do stuff" to get as much as we can get. Things are required of us in exchange for everything, from God's love to the natural bounty of Life. Simply "being alive" is not enough. Therefore we, like all of Life, are not enough.

Because just being isn't sufficient, the competition begins. If there's not enough out there, we have to compete for what's there.

We have to compete for everything, including God.

This competition is tough. It is about our very survival. In this contest, only the fittest survive. And to the victor go all the spoils. If we lose, we live a hell on Earth. And after we die, if we are losers in the competition for God, we experience hell again -- this time forever.

Death was actually created by God because our forebears made the wrong choices. Adam and Eve had everlasting life in the Garden of Eden. But then, Eve ate the fruit of the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, and she and Adam were driven from the Garden by an angry God. This God sentenced them, and all their progeny forevermore, to death as the first punishment. Henceforth, life in the body would be limi

 

OK, I got this message from the Saga awards volunteers:

Hi, you are getting this message because I thought it would be fun to have the various threads that are related to The Saga in Resource ?sponsor? the Saga Summer Fan Fiction awards. In your case, this means the Palpatine Character Discussion Thread. If you want, you can PM me a write up (preferably a humorous one) about why people should visit your thread, and they will be periodically posted throughout the awards ceremony.

I need some help.

It would be cute to do this, but I need some suggestions.

Whatever could one write??

 

Do you crave intellectual discussion of your favourite character? Do you hate the way he is portrayed as an evil lunatic? Do you strive to redeem him in the eyes of the masses?

Then the Palpatine Thread is for you.


Not really funny, but hey.

 

Or what about this ...

Darkness. Cold. Mist.

Footsteps.

A black-shrouded figure looms up out of the night.

You can't see his eyes, but you ... must ... follow.

He knows he has you now. Tendrils of Darkness envelop your mind. As is they have become real before you, you see him ...

At the funeral pyre of Qui-Gon Jinn, firelight flickering on his face. Knowing this is only the first Jedi death of hundreds, of thousands more.

On the brink of the Clone Wars, surveying his Grand Army of the Republic.

Patting Anakin Skywalker's shoulder, knowing full well what he is drawing the boy into.

Standing before a kneeling Count Dooku. "Rise, Lord Tyrannus."

A few short years later. "Kill him. Kill him now."

The words echo through your brain. "Execute Order Sixty-six."

The shrouded figure passes you by, his boots clicking on the wet pavement.

And then he turns in the mist and looks at you. And you see, morphing across his visage, the three faces of Palpatine. Young Senator Palpatine, thick blond hair curling behind his ears. The graying, older Chancellor. And the Wrinkled Wraith ... The Emperor. How could he be all these things? How could he do all he's done?

He speaks.

"You wonder, don't you ... ?"

 

Rather creepy, but very Palpatine. You captured it perfectly.

 

Talk about taking shameless plugging to the next level!

- IN a VERY STYLISH WAY -

Ahem...

... I have just writting what I may refer to as the BEST line I have ever had Palpatine say...

I can't wait until posting so I'm sharing this with you, LLL.



"...Anakin stirred and stretched his body out, and Palpatine felt the muscles extend and contract. ?Good morning, Lord Vader,? he said conversationally, as the newly created Sith Lord opened his eyes..."

 

After seeing the depth of Palpatine's character in ROTS, I became deeply interested.

I always wonder what makes people become that evil, what part is human, what is nurture, what is nature.

I did my first fanfic, here is the link.

http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=20543815&replies=0


My view of Palpatine was that his character was forged in extreme despair. Deeper than what Anakin had been through.

Hope you all like it!

On edit: the link posting didn't work first time around!

 

Hello! What a great surprise! So happy to see one of my favorite characters has his own thread. It was a joy to see Ian McDiarmid in all his "evilness" in ROTS.

Really interesting discussions...so many things to talk about. Especially with Palpatine.

I've wondered about that too. That would certainly make for a fun family barbecue.

Could Palpatine love? I believe he did love when he was young. Like a user said, he probably loved his mother until he killed her because she no longer helped him in his means. (Ain't that the truth? ) But an older, controlling Sith that he was...no. I believe he lusted. Love and lust are completely different. I'm sure he had desires as any other living being would. But I don't believe he would be capable of loving someone other than himself.

Palpatine is the embodiment of evil. Was he born evil? No, I'd like to think that it's the path and the experiences of one's life that leads them to either the light or dark side. Born into the galaxy without sin. Yet the obstacles that block the journey mold whoever into drawing from the good or the bad. Palpatine took the easy way, and chose the dark path. (As did Anakin.) (What is it with men and asking for directions? j/k! )

 

*waves hello to all the new people*

Everybody, if you want to advertise a fic you've written in here, that's fine with me. (Plus, I of course need it for the index ... assumming I ever get time to COMPILE the index!) However, it's a bummer when ppl come in, advertise, and leave. It'd be great if everybody stayed around to discuss PALPATINE!

I am trying to get around and read as many fics as I can. However, with an audio drama, a screenplay, and a Palpy fic, plus a job and they gym, it may take me a while. I will try to get around to reading everyone's fics.

Ansketil, you gotta post that.

Soon.

 

Sorry 'bout that! I didn't post and run!

I think the character is very interesting, and just the other day discovered this resource.

I am debating over whether such a person as Palps is insane, or not. He shows traits of Narcissism, and Antisocial behavior. But he seems able to show empathy, even if he was feigning it, especially to Anakin. He showed patience and interest in Anakin. He does his evil deeds in secret, and is patient to take power, where perhaps a narcissist would always be boasting for attention. He is very manipulative, though, and does not follow the laws, or just changes them because he can for his benefit. So, it is a hard question.

 

From what I've read these ppl don't fit the definition of insanity. Insanity is psychosis, where you're hearing voices from little green men or something. These ppl know reality from nonreality, and they know right from wrong. They just have an undeveloped conscience that is only fully operational when YOU do something wrong, not them.

Witness Anakin and Mace Windu. When Mace Windu wants to kill Palpy, it's not the Jedi way and it's wrong, but when Anakin wants to kill Dooku ... well, the rules get bent a little.

 

Yes, and Anakin could write it off as "the Chancellor told me to do it." At least, the little devil in his head could use that as an excuse.

I wonder if Megalomania is the best fit for Palpy, or if like the story of Star Wars coming from a collection of myths and religions, if his character comes from a collection of personality disorders, but never falls neatly into one.

 

I think he does fall neatly into one. He's a high-functioning sociopath, like, I think it was missmapp? said.

But the part I like is that these people ARE capable of change.

It takes some doing to make them WANT to, but they ARE.

 

Yep, that was me.

Insanity, btw, is a legal term, not a medical one. I checked out a couple of the psychological/psychiatric dictionaries here and they all concur.

"A legal rather than a medical term, referring to mental disorder or defect of such nature or degree as to interfere with the capacity to discharge one's legal reponsibilities..." --Campbell's Psychiatric Dictionary

Agreed. It's not like you're writing about a schizophrenic. Also, the highly-functioning bit makes it easier to tackle. I think you're going to have a dynamite story (is that the one you've started, Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil?).

 

For those of you looking for a quality in depth examination of Palpatine there's an excellent story called "Midnight In the Garden of Good and Evil". I'm not sure if the story is posted here, but it's online at fanfiction.net

I also have a story called "Shroud of the Shadow" that includes a detached but somewhat detailed narrative into Palpatine's background. It's posted only at fanfiction.net and I'd be curious to see what you guys think of it (for hardcore Palp. fans though, you'll have to go through a lot of ROTS AU'ness to get to the stuff about Palpatine.)

 

Um ... actually, that story is mine.

Thanks for the shout-out, tho!!!

I plan to put more up soon. I have the next two chapters planned, but they are going to take more time than I have just now to actually sit down and write.

I will go check out your fic, too.

 

Topic: Nervous Palpy?

The next time you watch TPM, in the scene where Padme announces her intention to go back to Naboo, watch Ian's hands. He has this habit in that scene of rotating the fingers of his left hand in a circle on his palm.

Now I notice he's doing it in ROTS, too. You have to look quick, because the pesky camera keeps cutting his hands off. But in the scene where he's revealing himself to Anakin, throughout that compelling, masterful manipulation, you look down, and ... he's doing this with his left hand. And when the Jedi come in to arrest him, he's tracing a nervous pattern with his index finger on the armrest of his chair!

So the masterful Palpy does betray some nerves, after all!

 

I can't wait to see it again and notice those movements.LLL. I just love Ian McDiamond's portrayal and I just get the feeling that he had a lot of fun in these movies with this character.

Also I liked your little snippet about Palpatine above, very eerie!

 

I looked again. He's doing it during the opera scene, too! Not so much, though ... just an occasional finger.

 

I was 10 when Return of the Jedi came out.

Palpatine scared the bejeezuz out of me. Forget that cypher of a hologram in Empire. This was it. This was him. This was The Emperor.

And I was glad to see him.

Why?

Because the ultimate villain, Vader, wasn't the ultimate villain anymore. He was a good man gone wrong, who only wanted his son by his side. He stopped being grand, and became pathetic.

The Emperor was not pathetic. He was everything Vader could have been, and should have been, wrapped up in the package of a wizard rather than a warrior. He truly was evil. And that was as it should be.

Now, to the question at hand. Is Palpatine human? Yes. Does he have a past? Yes. Does he have depth and motivation? Yes. But he is Evil, through and through, without apology and regret.

I don't think he was ever a good person. There was a time when he wasn't a bad one, but he was never good. He was a morally ambivalent bored little brat back on Naboo who came from a political/administrative family, born to administrate, to be a beauracrat, content with that but also bored, doing that because it was what he was trained and raised to do. And because he had no ambition for anything else.

Then Darth Plagueis found him and gave him something else; Ambition.

Up until that point Palpatine was what the criminal profilers are nowadays calling a Diphasic personality; unable to accept the problems reality foist on them, so retreating into their own little world, adapting poorly if at all. This personality slowly gives rise, some of the time, to a serial killer. Not always; often the diphasic stops somwhere further back along the spectrum; bully, petty tyrant, abuser. But some go all the way to the end of the spectrum. Plagueis gave Palpatine ambition, the boy from Naboo went all the way to the end of the spectrum, and became Sidious.

Palpatine would not want redemption, even if you handed it to him on a plate for the asking. He would spit in your face and Force Lightning you for suggesting such a thing. Not because he can't be saved, but because he doesn't want to be saved.

Absolutely. No. Regrets.

I will eventually write out my version of the Palpatine origin. But I've got my own whole AU Saga to write out first. But eventually I will write it.

Which is not to dismiss or diminish any of the other interpretations here, least of all yours, LLL. But I posit that what makes Palpatine/Sidious so fascinating is the fact the he is so utterly black-hearted. That he is totally unrepentant and likes it that way.

The closest I could ever come to a "nice" Palpatine is this plot bunny that I will never get the chance to use. I give it here for anyone who wants it. Picture this, sometime between AOTC and ROTS, the Dark Side warns Sidious of the coming of the Vong. Not only that, but he sees clearly, beyond all doubt, that he cannot manipulate or use them.

Though it galls him mightily, he knows he must put off the destruction of the Jedi. Because he will need their help to combat this threat. This threat that will probably kill/outlast him. So now Anakin must either not be turned, or turned in such a way as to continue Palps' legacy should he expire before the Vong are defeated. Then and only then can the war against the Jedi be renewed.

So now Sidious, if not Palpatine, must contact the Jedi and offer a truce...

There, that's a plot bunny for any and all. Make what you will of it.

 

That's a great plot bunny!

Palpatine would not want redemption, even if you handed it to him on a plate for the asking. He would spit in your face and Force Lightning you for suggesting such a thing. Not because he can't be saved, but because he doesn't want to be saved.

Oh, I agree right there. But there are circumstances such a person would want to be saved under.

Getting him to that point ... there's the rub.

That's what I'm trying to do in my fic.

 

My first post in the Palpy thread. Yeah!!!!!
Now what are we talking about?
I would view Palpatine as complete evil, without real compassion.
The only true villain, is one that is black souled, with no good in him at all. Vader had good, Palpatine did not, so he is the TRUE villain of the piece. A story is only as good as the villain(s)
Palpatine is a great one, so Star Wars is awesome.
Palpatine can be nervous, scared, fearfull, he is a sith, sith fear, he fears Luke, that's partly why he wants to turn him. He also feard Anakin too. Have we touched upon his strange lust for his apprentice's power yet? That's an important character trait, one most are afraid to touch upon because of the ****-implications, but it's not that its more of a "Gosh he has such power, power I could use. he he heh" lust. Anyone else see this?

Palpatine's origin, well I have my take on this built by Ian and some others, I think that he was born evil and discovered a path to power through Darth Plaugus (I can never spell this) Then he killed him. Make him a tragic figure and you would lose the evil that he represents to a large degree.

 

I hope I am not dredging up what's already been dredged up.

Palpatine is one of my favorite characters, in the grand list of things he figures in the top ten right after Mas Amedda. I say that seriously, I do like Amedda quite a bit. Anyway, if all this is still open for contribution I would like to submit my humble thoughts on Palpatine.

I don't think Palpatine is completely 100% evil--mind you I don't think he's the kind of guy I would have dog-sit for me or call if I needed bail money--but, I'll venture he's perhaps 90% evil. So where's the 10% of goodness? Gotta give something to him for listening to Anakin whine for years (even if it was self serving, he did listen to whiny teenage Anakin) and serve as a father figure of sorts, additionally I'm sure he's a good tipper (bit of a stretch, but think about it) and then there's that bit at the end of RotS, which I'm going to elaborate upon a bit and quote Ian McDiarmid (a fellow who knows a thing or two about the Galactic Emperor).

The evil characters in SW are all evil by choice, much like evil in our real world. Even though the Sith might deal in absolutes, there's plenty of gray area. I was really struck by the scene in RotS where Palp. finds crispy critter Anakin and bends down beside him and touches his forehead. There was a brief moment of compassion there, granted if you've got third degree burns all over your body it's going to hurt like hell to have anyone touch you, but that one little instance of humanity I feel reveals a chink in the armor of the 100%-ultimate-evil-dood argument. It struck me opening night when I saw it (it was very hard seen for me to watch and that was a element I latched on to personally) and subsequently I think there's a lot more to this little scene that can be elaborated upon and thought about in terms of characterization and our fanficy quest to answer the question, "Just who the heck is Palpatine?"

In the July-August 2005 issue of The Star Wars Insider, McDiarmid responds to the statement "It seems as if Palpatine, in his own strange way, cares for Anakin". McDiarmid says, "I was pleased that when Anakin is almost brutally destroyed Palpatine is relieved to not only find him alive for his own purposes but also because he's Anakin Skywalker. There is one moment that George scripted in a rather casual way where I touch Anakin's forehead. I think that's really the only human moment we see in the Emperor--just a moment of sympathy and compassion for another human being. And sympathy and compassion are not ingredients of the Sith."

Just something to chew on.