PT Palpatine is really suspicious in ROTS

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Garrett Atkins, Feb 23, 2013.

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  1. Garrett Atkins Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 11, 2013
    star 4
    Everything Palpatine does in this movie is really suspicious. Let's make a list:
    1. He knows what a Sith Lord is
    2. Tells Anakin to cut off Dooku's head then tells him he did well
    3. Tells Anakin to leave Obi-Wan for no reason
    4. Keeps accepting more and more power
    5. Seems to despise the Jedi and is talking about the advantages of being a Sith Lord all the time
    6. Darth Plaguies tale
    7. Tells Senate that the Jedi attempted to take over even though he sounds and looks like a monster
    I blame it on poor writing. What do you think?
  2. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    He knows his audience: Anakin.
  3. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    So do I. I must be suspicious. The Jedi would investigate me, if they gave a crap.

    "We'll never make it!"

    This stands in stark contrast to the average person who would prefer to be completely powerless.

    According to his story, he looks like a monster because of the "Jedi attack".
  4. Darth Chiznuk Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 5
    Yeah it really makes you wonder why all the Jedi are suspicious of him, doesn't it?
    TreborSabreon and Samnz like this.
  5. Ambervikings91 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 1, 2012
    star 2
    yep, this is a pretty poor list i think. Palpatine is starting to reveal himself.
    Samnz and Darth Chiznuk like this.
  6. DarthRelaxus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2007
    star 4
    Palpatine was suspicious in TPM and AOTC. He was obvious in ROTS.
  7. Samnz Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 2
    Why shoudn't he know what a Sith Lord is? I know what a pope is and still I'm not even catholic.

    As Valairy Scott already mentioned: He is talking to Anakin and that is part of his manipulation.
    He gets him to kill Dooku which makes Anakin feel bad and makes him feel that he is unable to follow the Jedi Code and at the same time he, Palpatine, offers him understanding and support ("It's only natural" etc.)

    See Arawn_Fenn

    Accepting power is kind of in the Job's decription of coming dictator.

    How are you supposed to convert someone if you're not allowed to name the advantages of your side?

    He is chancellor. The Jedi keep telling him a group called "Sith" were the enemies. It seems quite logical to me for him to study the Sith.

    Have you watched the movie? He states the Jedi have left him "scarred and deformed", so his look supports his claim.

    Most important: The Jedi were suspicious (and that was your point, right?). See:
    I blame it on poor attention on your part.
    Last edited by Samnz, Feb 23, 2013
  8. Ambervikings91 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 1, 2012
    star 2
    great job in breaking down this list. It seems as though he just doesn't really understand whats going on in the films, and that misunderstanding leads to some kinda confused thinking. I think your post was helpful and will clear it up or him.
    CloneTrooperFox and Samnz like this.
  9. Garrett Atkins Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 11, 2013
    star 4
    Rebutting Samnz:
    1. He never mentions Sith before
    2. If someone said "Do it" like that, I'd be suspicious
    3. Why wasn't there an urgency before?
    4. Dictator obviously
    5. Guess Anakin is really stupid then
    6. Um, how would he know this if the Jedi thought the Sith were extinct for 1,000 years 13 years ago.
    7. Boy, guess the Senate won't look into what happened at all. Just take this Monster's word for it. Yep, we killed all the Jedi, even the children because they're traitors. Don't mind that I'm talking about a Galactic Empire run exclusively by me. Please applaud.
    But, I guess I have poor attention.
  10. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    The only way Palpatine could be more suspicious would be if he wore a "Dark Side rules 4ever!" shirt.
  11. TheMadHatter Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2009
    star 4
    He is chancellor. The Jedi keep telling him a group called "Sith" were the enemies. It seems quite logical to me for him to study the Sith.

    ---

    I said this in another thread

    my opponent disagreed with me

    :p
  12. Alexrd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    First, you don't know that. Second, why should he?

    But then again, you also hadn't just dueled against the person who cut off your hand and tried to kill you (and your "family").

    There wasn't?

    Indeed.

    Because...?

    So? I know about the Roman Empire even though it was extinct hundreds of years ago. Guess how.

    I guess you are judging in-universe characters and plot from an audience POV. That's dishonest and fallacious judgement. Try something else next time.
    Last edited by Alexrd, Feb 23, 2013
  13. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    Why would Palpatine being familiar with the Sith be odd? He's the head of the Republic and Dooku is a Sith Lord and their enemy. It would seem odd to me if he didn't know who the Sith were as they are the head of the opposition army -- rather like if the President of the United States didn't know what a member of al-Qaeda was. I would think he would have regularly had the Jedi brief him on all their information regarding the Sith.

    I don't agree. Palpatine is the head of state giving a soldier the order to execute the leader of the opposition. I don't think it's all that odd. Plus, Dooku had recently taken Palpatine "captive" so I think it's rather understandable that he would want Dooku eliminated.

    I'm guessing this is in regards to him wanting to leave Obi-Wan. Within the context of the films, I think this makes sense -- Palpatine is playing the part of the nervous politician taken captive. I don't think Anakin would find it too bizarre for him to be worried about not making it out if they were "weighed down by Obi-Wan." Importantly, though, Palpatine knows not to push it when Anakin's mind is made up.

    The way Palpatine goes about this is rather brilliant. Note that he is never the one to ask for or demand more power. Instead, he manipulates the Senate into granting him greater and greater authority under the guise of increasing security. He himself plays the role of the "reluctant leader" -- "it is with great reluctance that I have agreed to this calling." In this manner, he doesn't seem power hungry, but instead a benevolent leader. In ROTS, for example, he tells Windu that the Senate will continue the war until General Grievous is eliminated, thus putting the emphasis on them rather than himself. Likewise, Obi-Wan notes that the Senate is going to vote him more executive authority. Palpatine is thus beloved in that his manipulation of the Senate gives him popular appeal and backing rather than aggressive control -- which is more powerful at this stage of the game.

    Actually, the way Palpatine does this is quite clever -- he lets the Jedi's own actions sow doubt in Anakin's mind first (by asking him to spy on Palpatine) which then reinforces Palpatine's point about how he can no longer trust them and how they don't believe in the Republic. Then, it's not so much a stretch to note that the Jedi themselves aren't that different from the Sith. It's the hypocrisy of it. And Anakin is already coming to believe that the Jedi are hypocritical in that they are perfectly fine with him breaking some parts of the Code to further their own ends (by spying on Palpatine) but he would be expelled for breaking other portions of the Code (marrying Padmé). In this way, the line between the Jedi and Sith are blurred and it's easier to convince Anakin that choosing the Sith wouldn't be all that different from being a Jedi.

    Considering the Sith are the head of the Separatist movement and Palpatine is the leader of the Republic, I don't think it would be all that odd for the Jedi to inform him of what they know concerning the Sith -- especially in regards to intelligence gathering.

    Again, this works to Palpatine's advantage. He says that the fight with the Jedi left him scarred and deformed. In this way, he looks like a martyr. He suffered and was mutilated protecting the Republic from those who would seek to overthrow it. We don't consider disfigured soldiers "monsters" -- on the contrary, we honor them all the more for the sacrifices they made to protect their countries. And this is how Palpatine plays it.

    In regards to the Jedi temple attack, that's easily enough explained -- when the Jedi "tried to overthrow the Republic" that gives Palpatine all the excuse he needs to surround it and take control. All he has to do then is say that the Jedi resisted and used the children as human shields. Plus, if you'll note, in the film the public is not allowed into the Temple.

    Creating the Empire right at this moment of great political upheaval -- with the end of the war and the "discovery" of the Jedi's "treachery" was Palpatine's masterstroke as it is when emotions are running highest and, in their fervor, the people/Senate will accede to all his demands.
  14. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4

    I've never met anyone who wants to be completely powerless. I'm not saying such a person does not exist. I've just never met one.
  15. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
  16. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    LMAAOO that's kind of a give away eh?

    No but honestly I found it ridiculous in the opera scene when Palps is lecturing Anakin about how powerful people fear losing thier power and how to be wary of the Jedi. How do you sit there and listen to that lecture from the most POLITICALLY AND MILITARILY POWERFUL MAN IN THE GALAXY, who has done everything in his power to stop the democratic process and maintain POWER...all the while telling you that the peace-defending order of monks who have been protecting DEMOCRACY for 25000 years and are his only opposition for remaining in POWER are the ones who are trying to take over.
    Darth_Pevra likes this.
  17. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    You forget that to Anakin, Palpatine is much more than just a Supreme Chancellor: He is a friend. Anakin trusts him more than he trusts the Jedi ("Remember what you told me about your mother and the sand people"). It takes a lot for him to get suspicious of Palpatine, because he needs people he can trust. He wants to trust Palpatine - especially now, when the Jedi are beginning to act suspiciously.
    Deep down, though, I think that Anakin is suspicious of Palpatine, too. In the opera scene, he doesn't quite side with anyone ("The Sith really on their passion for their strength." - "The Jedi are selfless. They only care about others.")
    Still, the story about Plagueis catches his interest (since he wants to save Padmé), so he chooses to stick with Palpatine for the time being. Only when he realizes that Palpatine is Darth Sidious does he turn against him. At that point, he's truly on nobody's side and could go either way. Because of Padmé, though, he chooses the dark side.





    - Become my apprentice. Learn to use the dark side of the Force.
    - Never. I'll never turn to the dark side.

    /LM
  18. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Why does Anakin act all surprised then when Palps tells him he is indeed a Sith? If he already had his suspicions this shouldn't have been so hard a blow.
  19. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    Is he really that surprised? To me, it looks more like he's been hoping against hope that Palpatine does not have connections with the Sith. He wanted to trust him, to believe that he was really a good man. To have his vague, unwelcome, suspicions confirmed in this manner, by learning that not only does Palpatine have connections with the Sith but he is actually the head of the order, he is struck by a sudden feeling of betrayal and helplessness.

    That's what I see, at least.





    - After you have killed all the Jedi in the temple, go to the Mustafar system.
    - There you will learn from Yoda, the Jedi Master who instructed me.

    /LM
    Darth Chiznuk and EvilQ like this.
  20. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Yes, he acts surprised. And now I'm annoyed by the apologist thinking in this thread.
  21. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    Not to sound harsh, but: That's your problem. I only write what I see. Take it or leave it.





    - You came in that thing?
    - Not bad, not bad, uh! A nubian, huh?

    /LM
    ILNP, Darth Chiznuk, Eryndil and 4 others like this.
  22. TheMadHatter Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2009
    star 4
    I don't agree. Palpatine is the head of state giving a soldier the order to execute the leader of the opposition. I don't think it's all that odd. Plus, Dooku had recently taken Palpatine "captive" so I think it's rather understandable that he would want Dooku eliminated.

    ---

    disagree:

    I LOVE democracy

    I love the republic..


    if he was your average hot headed chancellor I'd agree with your statement,


    he wasn't, he acted as a kind benevolent man who'd have wanted a trial for Dooku
    Last edited by TheMadHatter, Feb 25, 2013
  23. EHT Manager: New Films

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 2007
    star 5
    Oh good, more "poor writing" conclusions. Really grasping at straws at this point.
  24. BoromirsFan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2010
    star 4
    I think Palpatine looked irritable and drunk on power. But a sith? We know he is a sith because we have more power than the film characters. We know who is who and how the story will go down.

    They don't. The force is a deceiving ally. Would you imagine Christopher lee and Ian McDiarmid to chop you up in a split second?
    Darth Chiznuk and lbr789 like this.
  25. TheMadHatter Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2009
    star 4
    Christopher Lee..yes :p

    he even admits to his bad temper in his book

    ---

    ---------------------

    Oh good, more "poor writing" conclusions. Really grasping at straws at this point.
    ----------------------
    not really, just people disscussing plot points on a thing called a disscussion forum,
    my favourite film of all time has more plot holes than you can wave a stick at (no it isn't a star wars film)
    but i still enjoy disscussing these flaws and it's strenghs
    your comment came across as though everyone has an axe to grind and that is simply not the case
    unless you want to elaborate on why you think people are grasping at straws and argue the points
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