PT Palpatine is really suspicious in ROTS

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Garrett Atkins, Feb 23, 2013.

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  1. EHT New Films Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 2007
    star 6
    If you don't think that the OP post (and its following rebuttals to other posts that disagree with its premise that it's all just "poor writing") is not really conducive to actually discussing plot points on a thing called a discussion forum, then that's fine. Real discussion doesn't seem to have been the goal here or in other recent similar threads.
  2. TheMadHatter Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2009
    star 4
    well I can't speak for everyone else

    but I at least try to explain my rebuttals.
  3. BoromirsFan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2010
    star 4
    "poor writing" remark is a fine conclusion when it is supported with more substance
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  4. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    What's really troubling is why didn't Anakin figure out that Palpatine is Darth Sidious much earlier? Every detail about the Sith isn't really common knowledge to anyone except the Jedi and to hear some mere politician like Palpatine (as far as Anakin was concerned) tell stories about Sith Lords from ancient past should've raised some red flags. If that were me, I'd be wondering how a man like Palpatine would know so much about the Sith unless he is one of them. Unfortunately, Anakin did say he was a "slow learner" which is why PalpSidious had to spell it out for him later on.
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  5. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    Mere politician?!

    How is Palpatine a mere politician? He's the head of the Senate -- the body the Jedi serve-- and the commander-in-chief in a time of war. I would think it very, very odd if he didn't have detailed information brought to him about the Sith by the Jedi considering the Sith are at the head of the Separatist army. You don't think this would be a matter of intense national security?
  6. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    But it would be too dangerous for the Jedi to fill anyone in about the Sith, even if they are the head of the Senate. They risked influencing that person into becoming a Sith Lord themselves, such as what happens to Anakin and why the Jedi sensed the Dark Side surrounding Palpatine.
  7. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    The Jedi are part of the system. They can't just refuse an executive order. Besides, we've seen them take risks before - like telling Palpatine about the clone army... Obviously, they want the Separatists dealt with.

    The fact about war is that it changes people. Palpatine cannot be expected to be the exact same Supreme Chancellor he was in AOTC. He must've gone through many demanding situations that have altered his views and made him harder. It's not at all inconceivable that he would deem Dooku too dangerous to be kept alive. He acts like a man who's tired of the war and wants to get it over with.

    As a proponent of "less deliberating and more action", Anakin agrees with him. He also recognizes that the war is "destroying the principles of the Republic".





    - Goodbye, old friend - and may the Force be with you.
    - I'm with you, too!

    /LM
    Last edited by Lars_Muul, Feb 25, 2013
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  8. Viron Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Feb 21, 2013
    Well, the whole council / the experienced jedi know what a Sith Lord is.
  9. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    They also know the dangers of using the dark side and that knowledge has served them well, thus why none of the Jedi (aside from Dooku and Anakin) have become Sith Lords. An average person, on the other hand doesn't know anything about the ways of the Force or the nature of the dark side. To hear such knowledge will be so tempting, that person will figure out how to tap into that power and will abuse that power to the point where he/she will become a bloodthirsty tyrant. The Jedi cannot allow any non-Jedi to take advantage of this information which is why they keep it to themselves.


    Lars_Muul:
    As for Palpatine deeming Dooku too dangerous to be kept alive, neither Anakin nor the Jedi realize (until its too late) that Dooku is only dangerous because he could expose Palpatine as the Sith Lord that they've been looking for. Dooku's testimony will jeopardize all of Palpatine's plans to rule the galaxy and his plot to destroy the Jedi which is why he ordered Anakin to kill Dooku. Lastly, why would Palpatine be tired of a war that HE created? He wanted the Clone Wars to happen so that he can eliminate the Jedi Order in one fell swoop and to destroy the principals of the Republic. Anakin should've woke up and see that his "friend" Palpatine is the main cause of all the problems that are happening throughout the galaxy.
    Last edited by PMT99, Feb 26, 2013
  10. Darkskar95 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2013
    star 1


    I do not remember seeing Lucas' comments on Palp's face. Either way, the official answer may take a while to get to (i.e. Ep. III DVD); however, the Ep. III Visual Dictionary does state that Palp's true face is revealed by the lightning. He tells the Senate that he was "scarred and deformed" in order to explain his appearance. He never really reveals that he is a Sith Lord; he has no need to; he is Palpatine, the savior of the Republic and the leader of the Empire
  11. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    As we see from his office he is an art connoisseur.

    With that typically goes some knowledge of art history. Thus he is to some extent a scholar of history.

    Done.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Feb 26, 2013
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  12. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    @PMT99
    1. There are many reasons for the Supreme Chancellor to view Dooku as dangerous. He's been weakening the Republic for three years, all the while eluding capture. He has a seemingly endless supply of battle droids at his command. He has managed to have the Supreme Chancellor abducted. He has Jedi powers and can even shoot lightning.
    All of these are things that he should know. None of it makes him suspicious.

    2. He acts like a man who's tired of the war...
    Frankly, though, I think he is very anxious to get the whole thing over and done with. He's at the brink of success and would like nothing more than to declare himself Emperor and wipe out the Separatists.





    - If you will turn, you will be destroyed.
    - Not yet.

    /LM
    Last edited by Lars_Muul, Feb 26, 2013
  13. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    Unless Dooku tells Anakin that he and Palpatine were conspiring together to create the Clone Wars. Then, that would make Palpatine look suspicious which could also expose him as Darth Sidious.
  14. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    Of course, but I don't see how that's relevant, since it didn't happen. Anakin doesn't know Palpatine's true motives at that point.





    - He is my father.
    - What did you say?

    /LM
  15. Lord Chazza Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 4, 2013
    star 4
    There are some good arguments against the list and I'm inclined to agree with them but you have to admit that Palpatine's chat with Anakin at the opera house should have been ringing alarm bells in Anakin's mind. Still perhaps Anakin was just slow witted and was only thinking of saving Padme.
  16. janstett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2004
    star 3
    If you knew the ways of the Dark Side, and kept telling people about the benefits of being a Sith Lord, and knew Sith Legends, perhaps you should be investigated.

    Except the Jedi are complete idiots so don't worry you're safe.


    Oh you mean the sudden urgency to get off the ship that came completely out of nowhere for no reason? Did I miss some dialogue about a time bomb? How exactly were they going to get Palpatine off the ship when they came in two single-seat fighters (which were both trashed in the hangar bay, by the way)?

    Kind of like the "help" Palpatine urged them to go get, when they are on the enemy flagship?
    Last edited by janstett, Feb 27, 2013
  17. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    I believe that he was just desperate to save Padmé. Notice how he turns to look at Palpatine when he mentions Darth Plagueis. You can almost hear his alarm bells go off. At the same time, he's intrigued - and, as has been mentioned, he's already begun to view himself as separate from the Jedi. Sith legends probably fascinate him more than they scare him.





    - Hear you nothing that I say?
    - I am a slow learner.

    /LM
  18. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    You're playing games with the timeline. The only person Palpatine told of his knowing the "ways of the dark side" was Anakin, who immediately ratted him out. Thus it has zero relevance to the question of whether Anakin should have been suspicious of him. It only came out the moment he outed himself.

    "We found receipts for Star Wars books... clearly this guy knows too much!"

    Politicians aren't generally known for intestinal fortitude.
  19. Alexrd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    "Kept telling people"? Which movie was that, by the way?

    Yeah, they aren't in the middle of a battle or anything. No hurry at all...

    Other ships, escape pods, etc...

    And they were supposed to be omniscient and know what happened to their ships as well?

    Because the Star Wars galaxy is voided of any means of communication, right?
  20. Valairy Scot Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    How could a non-Force sensitive tap into the dark side of the Force?
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  21. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    In the first TCW episode Yoda says "Clones you may be, but the Force resides inside all creatures. Use it you can, to quieten your mind". Yet there's never been any hints that Jango or Boba are Force-sensitive.

    Maybe everyone (except the blocked-off, like the Vong or Ulic Qel-Droma) can use the Force, but only Force-Sensitives can use it for "external" manifestations.
  22. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Something similar to this was in The Cestus Deception: Kit Fisto taught some clones an exercise called "Jedi Flow".
  23. janstett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2004
    star 3
    I'm sure the irony isn't lost on anybody here, but I still want to point it out -- Mace uses the same "too dangerous to be left alive" line when he's preparing to strike down Palpatine. And Mr "less deliberating and more action" says he has to stand trial because it suits his needs.
  24. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    He does say it in a very unctuous tone, though. "Kill him... kill him, now."

    Anakin should have been deeply troubled by that. Instead, he seems troubled only by the actions of his own hands. "I shouldn't have done that." The egotistic insularity of his own despair made him miss what was brewing a few feet from him. His focus was misdirected.

    And what did a wise man once say about that? Anakin's focus, invariably, determined his reality. He should have been more on his guard about Palpatine after unreservedly being instructed to kill a man. Palpatine was so kindly and meek in the last film; this is quite the change. If a war can change a thoughtful, philosophic leader that sharply, Anakin would have been better discreetly distancing himself from Palpatine just on that basis alone. But again, he was troubled by what he just went and did, and probably felt that, ultimately, yes, war changes everyone. Plus, the Jedi made him continue his association with Palpatine, for their own ends. (Think about this one for a second: while the assignment they hand him comes in the 11th Hour, they might have been biding their time and sitting on it for a while).

    This is still extreme, though. In my estimation, Palpatine really pushes it in that scene. But then, the whole getting-kidnapped-to-accelerate-your-plans thing is extreme to begin with. Maybe Palpatine had to be this audacious to ultimately ensnare Anakin and win the Republic for himself. These are, indeed, the immanent facts of the matter: Palpatine did X, Y happened.
    Last edited by Cryogenic, Mar 6, 2013
  25. Team Padme Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    I'm pretty sure most people realized who he really was.
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