Palpatine: Reverts to true form OR damaged because of Mace

He was not disfigured. His true form came out in that scene. Anyone who thinks otherwise is wrong. I could cite some quotes from McDiarmid himself about it, but I'm lazy at the moment.

 

The lightning brought out his true face, thats why he waited to use it till Anakin enterd the room.

Even if it wasnt defelcted, it would have come out due to it.

Notice how he used ZERO force powers against Windu till Anakin arrived, but was tossing pods and lightning at Yoda from the get go?


This should end it-

Was there always the intention to show Sidious as he appears at the end of the film?

"I dont think George had made up his mind when we started shooting whether to contintually show Lord Sidious as he really is after his initial tranformation or if Sidious would go back and forth with his appearance. I (believe) when George finally saw Dave's wonderful makeup he decided that constantly changing Palpatine's appearance would be a step backward. So the moment in the film where I make the tranformation is the way I appear until the end. It's an interesting sort of study in schizophrenia really - the nice guy that you saw was revealed later in the monstrous mask as the self, the Sith self.

The dark side costs u in the cosmetic department. Look at Maul. He was already WELL on his way there, and he was only in his early 20s.

Sidious masked his true appearance, having to use his true powers brought it out, and made it look like Mace was killing him.

After the fight, we find out that he wasnt drained at all, and had "unlimited" power to spare. Not at all in pain.


-People who take the scene at 'face value' (pun intended, lol) believe exactly what they (and Anakin and the Senate) are supposed to. He lost to Mace and was deformed.

-People who are on to Palpatine understand that he was in control the whole time. I think that is emphasized in the fact that he slashed up 3 jedi in seconds. With only Mace to worry about, he stepped it down a notch to stall until Anakin came (which he knew would happen otherwise he wouldn't just sit waiting to be arrested).

I'm of the second opinion. Not only was he stalling, but he used the lightning to provoke Mace (who originally wanted to arrest him) to kill him, and thus force the decision on Anakin then and there.

Bingo.

How can people get that he set up the ENITRE Invisible Hand escape/rescue, but not this?

 

It is obvious that the ugly face is his true identity, perhaps magnified by the intense hate at that stage.

If he was melted :-

1) He would have burnt
2) It's funny how his melted face is perfectly symmetrical !! - check out his forehead !!
3) Yellow eyes - lightning doesn't cause that. It's the hate/anger.
4) Why didn't he drip ? - I saw no melted skin on his clothing.

During the initial sabre battle with Mace.......there were glimpses of his true identity face. BEFORE the lightning even came into play.

Ian McDiarmid even stated it was his true identity. Read those quotations listed above.

This logic is too strong to ignore.


I love the ambiguity of Star Wars, there's lots of it in ROTS, but this issue seems perfectly obvious to me.

He revealed his true self in order to ensure that Anakin protected him, thus taking one step closer to Sith status.

 

It was melting. The resource books tell so. We do not know how flesh melts under force-lightening. But there is no burning (Anakin's body looked perfectly healthy in ROTS, although he was forcelightened in AOTC.
I think that it also depends on how close the source of the lightening is. In Palpies case it was damn close. He had to intensify it, so that he could hold back Mace's saber. The stronger he got, the more his face melted.

 

I think its clear that it was Sidious's true face coming out, not that he was disfigured by the lightning. He simply used that as an excuse to explain his appearance change before the senate. After the change his disfigurement had the appearance of age and decay, not lightning burns. Perhaps the fight forced it to come out, but my opinion is that Sidious simply chose this as an opportune time to throw off his Palpatine disguise.

Throughout the entire fight Sidious is in complete control. He knows that Anakin respects and admires Mace Windu. The other Jedi are less important, so he quickly kills them off when they arrive. He then toys with Windu, all the while expecting Anakin to at some point show up. When Anakin heads over Sidious can feel him getting closer. He arranges it so that Mace Windu appears ready to kill Palpatine in violation of the Jedi Code right as Anakin walks in. This leads Anakin to further distrust the Jedi and attack Windu, advancing his turn to the dark side. Once Windu is crippled Sidious quickly finishes him off to end the situation.

 

The Visual Dictionary seems to go for two explanations:

"Two Faces- 'Always two there are'- not only master and apprentice, but persona and true face. Unmasked by the deflected lightning during his duel with Mace Windu, the Sith Lord's true face is revealed to the world. But for the Senate, the Jedi could not damage Palpatine's reputation."

However, captions surrounding an image of Palpatine also say "Face deformed by Sith lightning," with which we can probably interpret the Two Faces paragraph as meaning "true face" in a metaphorical sense, representing the real persona of Darth Sidious.

Then, the book throws us a curve ball. Another image has the caption, "Face has turned yellow in anger." As far as I can tell, the book seems to provide evidence for the "real face," "deformed by lightning," and "deformed by own anger" arguments, but leaning more towards the "deformed" ones. That, or the author's giving us the finger and being intentionally vague. Or it just turned yellow the day they took that picture.

I'm going with the book on this one. However it happened, for whatever reason, intentional or not, Palpatine's face was deformed during the Mace fight.

About Ian McDiarmid's explanation though... he says himself that Lucas wasn't even sure what to do about it for a while. Lucas might've decided to change his mind after talking to Ian. Zam Wesell wasn't made into a changeling until the actress had already filmed her scenes, and come on, it's George. He changes his explanations and excuses like he changes underwear.



Or maybe not. I've never peeked. Have you?

 

Go back and read the Ian quotes I posted on page 3 if you still think he was being melted. It's clear that it's his true face. Again, why keep throwing lighting if it's deforming you? And why did he seem totally fine afterwards and not in pain? Why no dripping? Why is his face, despite being ugly, perfectly symetrical? And if it's lightning, why isn't it burning him? And if lightning melts and deforms, then why not Anakin or Luke?

The fact is, it was his unlimited power that allowed him to show his true form. He has to sacrifice his guise in order to achieve that unlimited power to try and defeat Mace. After that, he simply lied to everyone about his appearance to gain sympathy. I do wish that Sidious would've elaborated to Yoda or something about his appearance so that the audience would have a better understanding of all this, but this is all we've got. It does look like he's getting deformed, but that's not how it is according to Lucas and Ian.

My guess as to why any official source books said he was deformed by lighting was to keep it spoiler-free.

 

cool.. this guy is so inteligent! i'm just sad in the end he dies like that.. must have lost his senses when trying to kill luke in front of his father! everyone knows it's not very wise to upset lord vader

 

I feel its a bit of both, but I'm mostly leaning towards Palps revealing his true form.

 

This is a mystery and please refrain from making absolute assertions. The only person who can tell us this is George Lucas.

We know that the Dark Side decays the body. However, we do not know if the withered, barely human face is Palpatine/Sidious' true form and the other one was a mask because he doesn't go back to it (but understand that there is no reason to do this because he knows the Jedi will be wiped out). It is likely that they are both his true form, and the excessive use of finger-tip lightning (not an exclusively Sith technique)warped his body. Let us not dwell on conjecture.

 

Seems obvious to me that it's his true face.

If the lightning deformed him, then are we to believe that the rest of his body still looks 100% normal, and just his face is deformed? Hmm...

 

He was fried, of course...

 

cool.. this guy is so inteligent! i'm just sad in the end he dies like that.. must have lost his senses when trying to kill luke in front of his father! everyone knows it's not very wise to upset lord vader

You could tell that Palpatine, while a genious, was also a coward. Mace had him owned, and so did Vader in ROTJ.

 

Don't know what movie series you've been watching, Sithlard...

 

I believe he reverts to true form for two reasons.

One, Luke doesn't get disfigured in the slightest in ROTJ and he gets about 3 times more lightning.

Two, notice how easily and quickly Sidious gets up after being fried? It's as though the lightning didn't hurt him a single bit.

 

I always liked the idea of the darkside slowly consuming him, but the movie does make it quite clear that the lightning melted his face. However, since i think everyone should just believe what they want to, I'm just going to believe that he was hiding behind a fascade.I think it would have been much better if in PM and AotC that Sidious had the deformed face. It would show that this was his true form and make it even harder for newbies to the saga to realise that Palps=Sidous.

 

I don't know that there can be a definitive answer to this question.

Darth Maul's name has been invoked a couple of times, but the obvious drawback in appealing to Darth Maul is that we don't know whether or not his characteristics were just a natural racial variant of his species or whether the dark side to whatever extent disfigured his face.

It would be much easier to conclude an answer if Darth Tyranus had in either AOTC or ROTS(appropriate acronym considering this discussion) shown the Sith Yellow eyes or any sort of metamorphosis in the Dooku countenance(no pun intended )during his usage of Sith powers.

We did see Anakin changing somewhat rapidly, his eyes yellowing and his face paling as he exerted himself in malice and heartlessness, which would tend to indicate Palpatine's healthy face couldn't be his actual face after decades of being the master Sith Lord. But, again, considering that Dooku apparently remained uneffected physically...

The next suggestion might be that of a temporary "deformity"/side effect exacerbated by the immediate implementation of Dark side powers, which then slowly subside afterwards.


Just for the sake of discussion, it is known medically that people are to varying extents physiologically effected negatively by bad habits and negative attitudes over time. This is really neither here nor there to the discussion, but it would seem more appropriate to the story for Lucas to reveal the dark side does result in a negative impact upon the physiological constitution of the respective members of the Sith.


Anakin's relatively rapid physical changes suggest that Darth Sidious' "deformed" face would be his actual face, and not the Palpatine persona's face. Darth Maul's appearance might lend credence to this argument, as well as Gen. Grievous own yellow eyes.(In consideration of having stated Dooku had been teaching him, which might suggest the Count regarded the General as his own possible Sith protoge. But this is purely speculative.)
But, we do not know enough about either Maul or Grievous species. Even knowing that Agen Kolar and Eeth Koth were of Maul's species doesn't provide enough info to make a solid conclusion. All we know in certainty is that Maul's visage is variated from that of Kolar and Koth, and might simply be evidence only of a typical racial variance(Sith tattooing aside).

In the movie making process itself, it is unequivocably known that Lucas certainly thought about presenting the Sidious "deformed" face as being revelatorily indicative to the audience as his actual face, however, that would not be considered "canon" but merely an option from which Lucas chose in the formation of his story.

Some here have argued that during the Windu duel segment Sidious' face was flickering between the deformed Sith face and the kindly politician face prior to the force lightning sequence, in which case the question would be settled somewhat. At least to the extent that the "deformed" face was not a result of the lightning.

Another argument against the lightning being the cause might ostensibly be posited, as mentioned by others, force lightning in no other episode of the series altered anyone else's face. Luke's face was not altered, Vader's was not changed. No one else in close proximity to a discharge or struck directly was so visibly changed.

Now, someone may also suggest this was a bit of a plot hole, an oversight by Lucas, and such a charge (no pun intended) has merit in the light of Anakin's rapidly deteriorating complexion in ROTS as contrasted by the apparently totally unaffected appearance of Count Dooku after years of being the Sith apprentice.

All that can really be concluded is that what the audience was presented with is, to observation, inconsistent or at least indeterminate. From the perspective of "canon." EU opinion falls on the side of the "deformity" being the actual face after prolonged exposure to the dark side.

 

"but the movie does make it quite clear that the lightning melted his face"

I can't agree with this. I've seen it three times, and it's not clear at all that the lightning is even hitting his face. He's just transforming. If anything, he's using so much power that it's draining him.

And if it is hitting his face, why do his hands deform, and also, is it true that the rest of his body is still 100% normal?

 

I tend to side with the position the "deformity" was not due to the lightning because of the rapid changes in Anakin's face as he followed the path of the Dark side.

 

"If his true face was the disfigured one, then ealier, why wasn't the hooded Sideous in Episode I & II disfigured? His nose and chin were obviously in the same condition that Palpatine's was. "

^^^ Um actually I believe your wrong, I do remember seeing deformaty under the hood in episodes I and II. In fact you see a lot of Palpatines face in I in the hologram form and it is DEFINETELY deformed.

I cant believe this is even a discussion. You people who really believe he was deformed by the fight are being foolish and are just plain wrong.

The written literature says Palpatine was hiding his true self and discards Palpatine (the image) when it is no longer of use to him.

LOL, also, AT NO point was Palpatine losing to Mace, it was all an act to gain Annakins pity and to confuse Annakin. Palpatines quick dismantling of the other 2 Masters was meant to emphasize this point (that Palpatine was playing with Mace).

ALSO: in the scene where Mace is holding back the lighting of palpatine, you see palpatines face change from the deformed face BACK to his normal face and BACK again. A physical deformaty does not appear, heaql itself, then appear again. Geez.

Palpatine used his true form to gain sympathy from the senate, thats why he stays in it and blames the Jedi for his condition.

Yoda says "the darkside clouds everything.." The dark side has become dominant in the force during AoTC and RoTS. Yoda and the other Masters are no longer able to see the future or use the force to sense changes in people. This is what allows Palpatine to maintain his illusion as Palpatine in front of even the Jedi. Its all an illusion.

$$$ Oh and Sidius's true form , its appearance, is meant to add mystery to the possibility that Sidius did indeed know how to sustain life using the force. It is obvious that Sidius is old beyond 'natural' years. So obviously if he really did look like palpatine this would be moot and would not fit into the story line or mystery. But since his true form is hideous, it adds to this mystery.

 

I don't agree that Sidious let Mace beat him. It can't be ascertained whether Sidious knew for certain Anakin was going to turn up, let alone help him. Seems too risky.

 

First off Palpatine WAS losing to Mace, you guys need to just kill all the faking BS. He kills to Jedi masters in 2 seconds then struggles against Mace because he was faking, come on...Now to the point. The deformed face his his true face, he uses the Palpatine face to cloud the minds of the jedi of his true self Darth Sidious.

 

I have to take issue with the statement that Darth Sidious was not possibly actually loosing to Windu.

Mace was apparently in a position to kill Sidious, and was deflecting the lightning. Subsequently, when Yoda arrives, after Sidious blasts him he tries to high-tail it out of the room to apparently escape the Jedi master, suggesting he regarded his "little green friend" a real threat.

Again, I think this is something the movie doesn't actually make definitively clear.

I like the idea better that Palpsidious was forcing Anakin's hand, and that certainly fits exactly with the scene between Luke and Vader in ROTJ.

If we consider ROTJ, then, really the argument is strongly supported that Sidious was sand-bagging to snare an apprentice.

However, in both cases it would seem Sidious was taking a risk in his gambit, just as aboard Grievous ship.

Grievous ship is again another example of sand-bagging supporting the notion Windu presented no actual threat.

 

General Palpatine was able to forsee TONS of things before they happaned, this certainly was not out of the norm. Its not at all unlikely that palpatine forsaw the whole event and let Mace hang around till Annakin showed up.

I also would like to add a huge point to my above post.

Someone explained why Sidius disguised his voice but NOT his looks?? I mean when Sidius talks to the Viceroys and Dooku he has his evil hissing voice. But when he talks to the senate or the Jedi he has palpatines smooth, soothing voice. So i guess people really believe he was capable of masking his voice completely but NOT his looks??????? Does his evil voice NOT match his deformed looks??? He obviously has always had the evil voice... Again Sidius was MASKING his true form and his true voice, he chose when to reveal himself. Mace's attack had nothing to do with it.

 

I don't think Palpatine let Mace beat him, but rather accepted his own defeat. He lost the ability to maintain his guise of Palpatine, but he realized that he could use this to his advantage.