Palpatine=Sidious ... its so obvious!

EDIT: New spoilers from the recent Rick McCallum webchat indicate that there is no certainty either way...

Bull.

Rick was asked if he could confirm or deny a clone in Episode III.

He said one word: Yes.

He didn't say yes there was a clone, he said he knew if there was a clone or not.

The cloners have been milking this for all it's worth, and the funny thing is Rick was laughing at them.





Look dude, I know you're proud of the overwhelming evidence you have cited to back up your supposition. It still doesn't mean that if people choose to ignore this "way the wind is blowing" then they are somehow inferior or "lost."



You know, I am really sick of this namby pampy "everyone's opinion is valid" bullcrap you keep spewing.

Let's use an extream example: Racism.

According to your logic, a racists opinion that, let's say white people are inferior to black people, is just as valid and those that hold that opinion aren't inferior or "lost".

What you are saying is that it's okay to be racists, because everyon'e opinion is equal.

That's BS. It's not okay, everyone's opinion is not equal.

My opinion is better than the cloners, because my opinion is based on the mountain of evidence from the films that MBJ has been so kind as to summarize for us.

The cloner opinion is inferior to mine, because it's based on nothing more than a feeling.






... So anything Pablo says or someone else that does not live inside the mind of Lucas should not be quoted as gospel.


And according to you, even George Lucas himself shouldn't be taken at his word, because he could always change his mind.

Sorry, but I'll base my opinion on the people who are making the movie over some guy with a hunch and a Phantom Essay any day.



I turn toward philosophy because there is no evidence to ever predict a spontaneous or chaotic change. By it's very nature, it is something that just "happens." Therefore you will never see as lucid an essay as anything you have written supporting the pro-clone stance as you gloatingly wait for (referencing mischief.gif).



Yet Emos kept claiming to have such an essay. So blame him.




This really won't ever become a contest of intellectuality or even superior debatesmanship. You are a very talented individual; I can see this from your style of posting. Don't gloat about a victory that is 99.9% certain; That .01% may sneak up and bite you on the rear.



But our victory is 100% certain, and considering the BS we've had to put up with from Emos, Vader666 and Vortex over the last few years, we have every right to gloat.

 

ArtMaul

>>>Therefore you will never see as lucid an essay as anything you have written supporting the pro-clone stance as you gloatingly wait for

I don't know if you were around at the time, but this isn't a rebuttal or something that we're waiting for- Emos-Edud has been promising an essay explaining his "clone" theory for quite some time now. (It seems that nobody else wants to explain their own theories until this essay appears- assuming that anyone actually has a theory of their own...)

In fact, he said, in this thread, 2nd September;

>>>>And in case you don't recall or were't around when I told folks on the board, Sep 10 is my last day as a free man. [...] So, MeBe, perhaps you can see why I got a bit testy when last night you again harassed me about the essay. I said early September, it will be early September. It's not like I have any other choice. But please understand, that Star Wars is subordinate to the other pleasures that I will indulge in the next week, so you might have to wait just a bit more.

As the 10th has been and gone, it looks like we'll be waiting a bit more then...

 

"life can be chaotic. To deny that, is to deny reality."

We are not talking about life, we are talking about a movie. To presume that the storyline is subject to whims and random events is ridiculous. There are consistent themes and story arcs throughout the Saga. If you think Lucas is going to throw all these out one day because he woke up on the wrong side of the bed or ate some bad roast beef, you are kidding yourself.

"So anything Pablo says or someone else that does not live inside the mind of Lucas should not be quoted as gospel."

What about the Lucas quotes I gave? Besides, now you think Pablo is a rogue employee, illegally using internet access to give deep, dark secrets without Lucas' approval?

Have you heard of Hyperspace!?! Lucas made people pay good money for this information. To dismiss it as simple crap completely ignores the entire context from which this information came from. I don't see Lucas giving an "Official Retraction" when Pablo says he's read the script.

"...and some people simply can't figure it out.

Maybe they choose not to side with what you think you have figured out."

Hmmmm.

"Some people can tell which way the wind is blowing, others choose not to, and some people simply can't figure it out"

It would appear I had all three scenarios in mind. The point being, not everyone knows that P=S, despite its obviousness. This holds especially true for new fans who haven't seen the OT yet (and yes, these people do exist.)

"People are people, so why should it be; you and I should get along so awfully?"

Okay, since you are a Depeche Mode fan, you may live.

"just as it's not impossible for Vader's injuries to turn out to be the result of lighting a huge fart."

Blue-flaming in the SW universe? That'll be the subject of my next essay.

Anyways, point being - there's "opinion", and there's "informed opinion". Emos and Vader666 have both admitted to not reading canon or secondary sources about Star Wars. Despite this, you want to take their "uneducated" word over mine?

If someone wasn't a dentist, but claimed to more than a dentist did despite not reading any medical journals, would you want that person to work on your teeth? ?

"And according to you, even George Lucas himself shouldn't be taken at his word, because he could always change his mind."

Agreed. This is a key tenet of the Cloner hunch: you can't trust anyone's "facts" except for those of the Cloners!

Hardly proof, much less sound reasoning. I can't get over the fact that, like most bad hunches, one must completely disregard the history of Star Wars in order to make the Cloner hunch work. The more one knows about Star Wars, the more ludicrous it becomes.

"Emos-Edud has been promising an essay explaining his "clone" theory for quite some time now."

---

[b]Emos-Edud:[link=http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=11336030&start=12046132]6/16 7:36am Subject: RE: Debating Whether Palpatine=Sidious. Final version.[/link]
[i]I've already discussed at length the value of the twist and why there needs to be a clone. Perhaps if you were less interested in insulting and more interested in reading retention, this debate wouldn't seem so circular. This is the reason that I must take frequent breaks from this debate. Oh, well. There is no point in complaining. It is just another reminder why I should finish my essay.[/i][/b][hr][/blockquote]Note the [u]date[/u]. ;)

[i]"it looks like we'll be waiting a bit more then..."[/i]

Maybe [u]after[/u] Ep.III, in a special "Making-of" issue. ;\

 

There is just one thing in that last quote by MeBeJedi posted that was spoiler blacked out. It contradicted itself when it said there will be no major twists, but suprizes await concerning the characters, sorry that has me confused

Was that a planted loophole?????

It is a loohole that diehard cloners can use if they choose.

But for me the clone Zombie is dead and only the movie itself could bring it back to life.

I am off the fence on this now.

ST Edit: I blacked out that part of the statement as it could be considered spoiler material

 

Let's be reasonable about this. Especially with the latest revelation by Pablo, all of the evidence clearly points to Palpatine being Sidious. There will be no major "gotcha" twist. There is no clone/cyborg/twin/whatever. To be denying definitive statements by official sources is, I believe, intellectually dishonest. Do you really believe that people like Rick McCallum, Ian McDiarmid, and Pablo Hidalgo would sacrifice their reputations and ethical integrity simply to mislead a bunch of overzealous Star Wars fans?

The conscious denial of mounds of evidence is of the same mindset that leads people to claim that the Holocaust never happened. That the moon landing was a hoax. That the earth is flat. Sure, those bizarre assertions could in some twisted way be correct, but there is more than enough evidence for any rational human being to confidently believe otherwise. Obviously, Star Wars cannot possibly approach the significance of such real life issues, but surely you can see the common thread here.

If no evidence is relevant, then why can't Jar Jar be the mother of the twins? Why can't Naboo become the Death Star? Heck, who says Episode III is even going to be made? Perhaps everything we've seen on Hyperspace is just a big ploy to throw us off the scent of what's really going on: the production of Howard the Duck 2! Again, it's a matter of reasonable certainty.

I'll admit, the clone theory could still happen. Is it at all likely at this point, though? No.

 

N_A

Yoda AOTC "I agree"

It's true a hunch can make a person "intellectually dishonest", and I am now beginning to understand the frustration the anti's have had to abosrb in the last year or so.

 

"there will be no major twists, but suprizes await concerning the characters, sorry that has me confused"

Not a problem, and an excellent question.

Consider TPM. Before then, SW fans had always known that Obi-wan found Anakin on Tatooine. In TPM, this was still the case, even though a new character (Qui-gon Jinn) has been introduced.

Consider Pablo's prior quote...

"Pablo says that some of the theories seen on StarWars message boards are very close to the plot of Ep3, but also that the story is not that much of a secret since we have known the basic plot since the prologue to the Ep4 novel. The only mysteries to be revealed are the "why" and "where" things happen."

The "story" remains true to the novels, even if some "details" are different or knew. Well, the basic storyline since the novels and the films is that Senator Palpatine takes over the Republic with the help of Darth Vader (Anakin Skywalker). This point is mentioned several times, whereas the Palpatine "clone" is never mentioned.

Another case. The new character of Darth Sidious. While we've never heard about him, we do know that Palpatine was a skilled manipulator and Force-sensitive (again, based on the novels and movies). Thus, Darth Sidious is his second nature - just as many other characters in the SW saga have second natures. Emos went so far as to admit this fact, but felt it shouldn't apply to Sidious/Palpatine (though he couldn't explain why.)

Point being, knowing that Palpatine did take over the Republic (plot), we are now seeing "how" he did it (details), as per Pablo's comment.

Simple reasoning, and taking all known facts at face value. That is the beauty of the Anti position.

 

"That the earth is flat."

Would you believe that I used that very link in the "Palptine=Sidious Final Thread".

BJ might remember that.

 

Actually, that's where I got it from. I had quite a good laugh when you posted it.

 

MeBeJedi

But we know some people will never accept the facts at face value.

Do you think a guy like Vortex will admit he is wrong?

 

BJ, I seriously doubt Vortex needs any theory to explain the way he is. He, like Vader666, simply chose to cling onto the Cloner hunch because it was the underdog, plain and simple.

That being said, simply saying "it's too simple" isn't much of a reason to believe the Clone hunch. When you've seen 5 of the 6 films in the Saga, it's pretty hard not to know what the story is going to be. We know how it started, and how it ended. People who want the Cloner hunch to be true are simply trying to inject mystery into a scenario where they simply know too much for it to be a mystery.

Watching the OT first effectively "spoils" you, whether you like it or not, because it is the "end" of the Saga.

 

JustinPeeler:

I have received calm and logical statements from Scott3eyez and MeBeJedi. You are just a dynamo of anger and it's posters like you who give the antis a bad rap. I believe the next words out of your mouth should be:

"Yes Artmaul, I will marry you."

MeBeJedi,

The fact that this is a work of fiction means it is less governable to the laws of logic or reality.

Honestly fellahs, your earlier posts citing production work, imagery, and script clues earn you much more credence than this constant quoting of the webchats and set diaries. To believe anything 100% from these sources is irresponsible and potentially misleading.

I know for a fact that there is an active misinformation campaign going on through some of my friends at AICN. Do you not think for an instant that many of these snippets are either erroneous, intentionally misleading, or pulled out of context?

But this is an officially sanctioned LFL source!!!

Yeah, and I've got a bridge I want to sell you.

We're talking about a complex motion picture here, whose vision won't even be understood until all the layers of CG are brushed onto the final edit. This isn't a talking heads piece where we know precisely what is unfolding in the scene.

Before the release of TPM, I was in contact with Gary Rydstrom, the Sound Editor. Based on all the spoilers I knew and compiled up to 2 weeks before the film's release, Gary told me I was only 17% accurate with the film (It was more like 50%).

People feel that with the advent of "HYPERSPACE" and Lucas' so-called "open-spoiler" policy as in "the fans are gonna get spoilers anyway, I might as well charge them for it" (thanks George :/), that the flood of spoilers coming out are the most reliable to date. Are you kidding me? With people like Josh, Sith Interceptor, Ternian, and others posting dead on spoilers for the last 5 years? The spoilers are the same, it's just that the package they're in is prettier.

 

"New spoilers from the recent Rick McCallum webchat indicate that there is no certainty either way."

"Palpatine is Sidious. No twins. No clones. Nothing like that." is not new evidence. We don't need the new McCallum chat.

"We will indeed learn one or the other, but his language was purposefully ambiguous."

Not in THAT quote.

"After carefully considering this mountain of evidence used to assume (let's face it people, even with all the quotes and circumstantial evidence, you can only make educated guesses)"

Which is all we've been doing. We've never said we were totally, absolutely, 100% right, and that cloners were crazy or inferior people. Read the posts as they are, instead of inferring things that aren't even there.

"I honestly now believe that Lucas, who through his minions is well aware of the theories out there, is gonna throw a curve ball at all of us."

Why?

"It may be brilliant, or it may be disappointing. Once again, I am not baiting the anti-cloners, nor do I wish to construct a long-winded argument to support the clone theory."

Why not? You don't mind writing long posts. We don't need a 10 page report to start debating. Do it point by point, if you wish, talking about one point every day.

"I feel that if someone were to construct a theory, the overwhelming prejudice (3 years and running) against the clone idea would blow holes all through the post, no matter how lucid it was."

Pfft, come on, enough with this "bigotry" poodoo. You realize that we're ASKING for the essay. We WANT something to discuss. We want the procloners to finally stand up for themselves and defend their idea. And if there are holes, we will find holes. If there aren't, we won't.

"What it boils down to ultimately is your faith in what will happen in Episode 3."

And my faith in P=S is backed up. If I saw Ra the Sun God walk into my house and light up my room, would I still believe he doesn't exist?

"I could care less either way, just as long as we see a fantastic film."

Agreed, but we should also see a fantastic SAGA, and not just one film.

EDIT: Yo Vortex. How's it hanging?

Cometgreen

 

Yeah, I'm sure the officially sanctioned Hyperspace celebrity chats are nothing more than an ingenious ruse to intentionally deceive a tiny but fanatical fraction of the potential movie-going audience. The "deflect all evidence" strategy is truly unbeatable.

(On a side note: Howard the Duck 2 is gonna be sweet!)

 

I don't think anybody but MeBeJedi or this new guy Oppss reads my entire posts.

 

I don't understand why this debate is so heavy in the AOTC Forum. You can't post spoilers here. You're limited to what you can say here. Based on the spoiler reports recently, I know the answer to this debate now. You need to go into the spoilers forum to find out. Besides this is the oldest thread I've ever seen. It started in 1998. Some of you need to read the first five to six pages of this thread. It's a classic. Reading some of the old theories about how Palpatine becomes Sidious' next apprentice and how Palpatine recruits Anakin to kill his master.

Anyway, since this thread is nearly five years old, I hope nobody does anything to have it closed. I would hate to see such a classic thread shut down.

 

"I know for a fact that there is an active misinformation campaign going on through some of my friends at AICN. Do you not think for an instant that many of these snippets are either erroneous, intentionally misleading, or pulled out of context?"

Will all due respect, your reference to AICN drops your credibility significantly, if only by association.

Even if one doesn't take all the "facts" at 100%, there's still way to much to be simply discounted.

Do what you like, but I prefer this information over reasoning reminiscent of children's bed-time stories..

"I know you think you know the movies, but somewhere, hiding in that old theater, is Palpatine's clone. You never see him coming, and he doesn't leave any marks in the other films, but he's there nonetheless. If you play the DVD backwards, and listen really close, you can almost hear him hidden in the dialogue of the characters. The ghost of Lucas' twist is going to getcha, if you keep doing research of the Star Wars films.

Palp's clone has become the Star Wars equivalent of the "Boogyman".

Oppss - Vortex, my ass. Hi, Emos!

"(On a side note: Howard the Duck 2 is gonna be sweet!)"

[image=http://www.suite101.com/files/articles/91000/91103/howard5.jpg] [image=http://www.frey-united.com/lea/pic/lea048.jpg] [image=http://www.frey-united.com/lea/pic/lea023.jpg][Cloner]Hmmmmmmm.[/Cloner]

Love that movie.

...Oh? What were we talking about again?

 

What I'm saying is I find it hard to believe that Lucas would use people from his cast, crew, and staff to tell bald-faced lies through official sources simply for the sake of preserving a nonsensical "gotcha" twist for a small, overly zealous portion of the potential audience.

Basically everything will be known about the film months before it's released thanks to the official publications anyway, so I have to wonder what the point in intentionally deceiving people for over two years is. If the "twist" exists, the spoiler hounds will already know about it by the time they see the movie.

Filming false scenes to throw off prospective spies and loose-lipped members of the cast and crew is one thing, but outright lying is quite another.

 

"Strange no?"

[Emos] Hmmmmm. [/Emos]

Where's the essay?

 

D_Lowe makes a good point this has to be one of the oldest threads in use.

This debate was on even before TPM came out, LOL.

A question to everybody do you think there is a misinformation plan in place from Lucas?

And one person involved with the E3 production says there will be suprises another says there won't be, well which is it?

Things that make you go hhmmmmmm?????

 

MeBeJedi:

You don't have to continue to be cocky and use these derisive little comments about bedtime stories and whatnot. I've given you more props than you deserve.

I am actually gonna leave this thread now, not because of what you have said, but because I had no idea this was in fact the same thread from '98. I'll be over in the 3PSA forum like D_Lowe suggested. This is an utter waste of time here.

 

"I don't think anybody but MeBeJedi or this new guy Oppss reads my entire posts."

I quoted your entire post. How could I have not read the entire thing? I don't think you have read much of the previous debates, as most of your accusations contradict past points and defeats.

Now then, to Hyperspace: I agree with NA. Why would they lie to only a small portion of the fans? If they were airing these things on TV, letting everybody watch these chats, then I might believe you. But only a small percentage of people are being treated to minimal spoilers. Fans still don't know the entire plot, and they're still debating the existence of characters!

"Oppss - Vortex, my ass. Hi, Emos!"

Emos, Vortex, what's the difference?

EDIT: How is this an utter waste of time? And just a heads-up: You won't be able to really debate about this in 3SA (if you want to debate). All of the new threads are locked. Though maybe they're debating it in the "This character's a clone!" thread. I guess I must venture into that spoilerific forum.

Cometgreen

 

The statements remain consistent. As Pablo said, the surprise lies in finding out how and why things happen. But there will be no "Sixth Sense-style pull-the-rug-from-under-you type of surprises" in Episode III. In other words, no bewildering twists or "gotchas."

 

Oppss, despite your Sep.03 date, you are not a new user. Do you deny being a sock?

 

Art, my apologies. That wasn't my intent. I was trying to be funny.

Nonetheless, this is exactly how the Clone hunch has been presented time and time again.

Oppss

Interesting that you didn't really answer the question. Hmmmmm.