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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

PT Who really won the Palpatine Mace duel?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Darth Formidious, Apr 13, 2017.

  1. Slicer87

    Slicer87 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 2013
    To be fair, Lucas does flip flop a lot.
     
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  2. themoth

    themoth Force Ghost star 5

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    Dec 5, 2015
    I think Palpatine threw the fight. If he didn't, it was incredible timing because it was the final piece of the puzzle that turned Anakin to the dark side.
     
  3. Darth Dnej

    Darth Dnej Jedi Master star 4

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    Apr 27, 2013
    Ian's word is not canon, but I do respect and agree with his take. There is a possibility that Mace got the better of Palpatine and cornered him, but Palpatine was clearly playing the victim when Anakin came in ("I'm too weak").
    Notice that earlier in the fight, Palpatine could have stabbed Mace straight through the chest. Instead he pauses while pointing his saber, waiting for Mace to make a move.
     
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  4. Palpatine is not really powerful as many believe
     
  5. jakobitis89

    jakobitis89 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 27, 2015
    He fought the greatest Jedi duellist to a standstill (at least for a while) and defeated Yoda outright. He's plenty powerful enough. Even taking force abilities out of the equation he wields tremendous political power and his influence and manipulation is widespread beyond anything the Sith have managed in millennia. It might not be power in the 'who would win a duel' sense but it makes him probably the single most powerful person in canon to date. It was just as much his own complacency and arrogance that lead to his downfall as much as anything any of the heroes did.
     
  6. Erkan12

    Erkan12 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 27, 2013
    Again, Ian is joking in his first sentence, it's just obvious...
     
  7. Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid

    Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 13, 2014
    Of course Palpatine threw the fight with Mace.

    Look what Palpatine did in his fight against Yoda. All the Force Powers he had and the way he fought with a lightsaber. He threw half the senate at the Jedi Master.

    Palpatine was holding back on Mace to make Anakin think Mace was the aggressor. As soon as Mace had his hand cut off Palpatine hit him with his most powerful lightening yet. When it was over Palpatine wasn't even winded. He hopped and knighted Darth Vader before issuing Order 66.
     
  8. TaradosGon

    TaradosGon Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Feb 28, 2003
    I feel like Palpatine threw the fight. It's the only way that scene makes sense to me in the scope of both ROTS and the greater saga.

    If Palpatine had so desired, he could have threatened to kill Anakin, if Anakin tried to leave the office. Instead he allowed Anakin to leave and gave him positive reinforcement.

    Then he sat at his desk and waited for the Jedi to come to him. For all he knew 20 Jedi could have come barging into his office.

    He really put himself at a disadvantage as he was putting all his cards on the table and allowing the Jedi to react while he sits and waits for them to make a move.

    And really, Palpatine made no effort to defend himself any better. He didn't summon any clones, he didn't hide. He sat and waited and chose to engage Mace in a fight when Mace had wanted to arrest him.

    Mace then "wins" and again states his intention to arrest Palpatine, and Palpatine again provokes Mace, until Mace finally says he's going to kill Palpatine.

    At this point Palpatine stops resisting and starts begging. Something we know to be a ploy, because seconds later he springs back with "unlimited power."

    Contrast this with Yoda, who showed up later to kill Palpatine, and Palpatine tries to run. He had nothing to gain from fighting Yoda.

    But against Mace, he was willing to give Mace prep time, made no attempt to run. Gave Anakin nothing but positive reinforcement for his decision to turn him in, etc. Seemed highly staged, imo, a show for Anakin.

    By the time of ROTJ, Palpatine is highly confident, and speaks of his gift of foresight. Something that Vader seems reluctant to challenge as he insists he MUST obey his master.

    Having Palpatine show any kind of true weakness in front of Anakin/Vader seems dangerous for him. The canon novel Lords of the Sith makes a point of Vader noting that Palpatine has never shown weakness in front of him, and that if the master ever does show weakness, then the apprentice must kill him.

    I think where these characters are as of ROTJ suggests to me that Vader does not perceive strength in the light side,nor weakness in Palpatine. Luke was his only hope to overthrow Palpatine, and only if he falls to the Dark Side. If Mace beats Palpatine, that gets muddied, if he has witnessed his Master's defeat first hand.

    My interpretation is that at the time, Anakin thought he was saving Palpatine, but over time he realized his master's genious and power and realized he had been played.

    Palpatine seems to go out of his way to try and get Mace to kill him. He allows the Jedi to come for him. He does nothing to hinder them.

    Then when they try to arrest him, he starts a fight instead, killing three of them. When Anakin is close, Palpatine "loses." When Mace tries to arrest Palpatine again, Palpatine continues the fight with lightning before giving up due to being "too weak," once Mace resolves to killing him.

    George has said that the Sith desire life above all, believing there is nothing after death. He would not put himself in a position where he could be killed unless he had 100% confidence in Anakin saving him, or his own ability to get out alive.

    I think it's revealing that he'd so quickly run from Yoda, when Yoda shows up unexpectedly, but that he would sit and wait for Mace and any number of potential Jedi to come kicking down his door.


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  9. Darkslayer

    Darkslayer #1 Sabine Wren Fan star 7

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    Mar 26, 2013
    Listen to the commentary on the ROTS DVD.
     
  10. Nanaki

    Nanaki Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 5, 2016
    Palpatine also literally cut through Agen Kolar, Saesee Tinn, and Kit Fisto like a hot knife through butter, so I fail to see how he could kill 3 Council-level Jedi Masters in about 5 seconds flat, throw the whole Senate at Yoda, knock out Yoda's lightsaber with Force Lightning, and fry Mace as soon as he was literally disarmed by outside interference if Mace had him beat fair and square. I still believe Palpatine took a dive.

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  11. TaradosGon

    TaradosGon Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Feb 28, 2003
    I don't think George really cares about the minutiae like if Palpatine threw the fight or not. I think all he really cared about was putting Anakin in a situation where he had to make a choice.

    He's flip flopped on many details from whether Sith can be ghosts to whether stormtroopers are clones. Pablo said on Twitter that he even gave several mutually exclusive explanations for Palpatine's change of appearance. Palpatine's change of appearance is symbolic for revealing the ugliness that is the Sith/Empire, but as to whether or not it was all a mask, or scarring, etc. it doesn't seem like he settled on an answer. I don't think he really cared that much.

    I think the themes and imagery were way more important to George than what was happening in universe. But that's my speculation based on hearing him talk in various commentaries and interviews.

    So while he does say that Mace defeats Palpatine in one of the audio commentaries, there are two commentary tracks on the Blu-ray and in one of them I believe he points out that when Anakin walks in, he only sees Mace threatening to kill Palpatine. He missed the earlier two attempts Mace made to arrest him.

    This creates distrust for Anakin, since the whole reason he told Mace was to get Palpatine arrested. So when he walks in and sees Mace threatening to kill him, it breeds anger and desperation, since he earlier killed Dooku and realized it was not the Jedi way, and now sees a Jedi Master doing the same thing and disregarding Anakin.

    Palpatine's whole strategy seemed to hinge on creating such doubt as he says, "of course you should [hand me over to the Jedi], but you're unsure of their intentions."

    Had Anakin walked in to a victorious Palpatine standing over Mace's corpse, I'm not sure that would be beneficial in the attempt to turn Anakin.

    To me, him throwing the fight makes the most sense. But I don't know if we'll ever have a definitive answer from the Story Group going forward, and more recently George allegedly told Sam Jackson he's ok with the idea of Mace living, so I'm not sure George's answer now would even necessarily be the same as the one 12 years ago, if he ever even had a firm answer.

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  12. Darkslayer

    Darkslayer #1 Sabine Wren Fan star 7

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    Mar 26, 2013
    He did care about it though because he went out of his way to address the issue.
     
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  13. SlashMan

    SlashMan Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Feb 5, 2012
    It's funny because I'm 99% sure Samuel L. Jackson "confirmed" that he won the fight. Though in both of these cases, it's not anything definitive, but I love that these actors' love of their characters has sparked this little debate. The only thing definitive at this point has to come from George, but that's not going to happen.
     
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  14. PMT99

    PMT99 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 23, 2000

    If that were true, he wouldn't have killed 4 Jedi simultaneously nor would he have been able to send Yoda packing on his trip to Dagobah.
     
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  15. Erkan12

    Erkan12 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 27, 2013
    I would give a chance to these theories, if it was only a little logical. Seriously, Sidious only survived that fight because he had to live until RotJ. There is no other reason why he survived, what kind of idiot Sith Lord would let a Jedi Master like Mace Windu (only second to Yoda in the entire Jedi Order) to point a lightsaber on his face when he has been disarmed just because of requiring an apprentice ? Sidious never cared about his apprentices. That's where he failed because he had no successor after RotJ. He was too selfish even for a Sith Lord. Sidious would kill Anakin if he hadn't joined him, and how do you know that Anakin would join Sidious for %100 ? Anakin could do the right thing and let Mace kill Sidious, then what ? Where is that great plan of Sidious ?

    The timing was perfect because Anakin went there in time before Mace kills Sidious, not because Sidious planned that during the duel. He is not all knowing and even the Celestial Force beings (the Father, the Son, the Daughter) can't see the Future that clearly, as Yoda says, always in motion the future is. Sidious isn't that powerful enough to see every move that is going to happen with Mace and Anakin.
     
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  16. Jester J Binks

    Jester J Binks Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 19, 2016
    The answer is in the prophecy. Otherwise, the prophecy would read more like:

    A Chosen One will be born of the Force. They will eventually bring balance to the force that they had a direct *hand* in taking out of balance for two decades of misery and at least three more of uncertainty.

    Qui Gon: It is possible he was conceived by the midi-chlorians.

    Mace: You refer to the prophecy of the one who will bring balance to the Force. You believe it's this boy?

    Qui Gon: I don't presume to ....

    Yoda: Kill him we must

    Mace: He's too dangerous to be left alive.

    RotS saber scene with Mace as Anakin and Anakin as the Youngling

    Palpatine couldn't have needed Anakin to fulfill the *bad* part of the prophecy or the prophecy falls apart.

    The prophecy needed to be fulfilled at a later date because per RotS Palps:
    Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us.

    This implies Palps could have taken out Anakin had it come to that. Palps also prophesied correctly. Lucas provided other Sith apprentices under Sidious to illustrate Vader was along for the Emperor's ride, not the driver of it.

    And Ian was simultaneously smart enough to figure out what was driving his character in that scene and self-deprecating enough to joke about it with a wink more than an outright confirmation.
     
  17. ewoksimon

    ewoksimon Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 26, 2009
    Lucas mentions on the ROTS commentary that Palpatine throws the fight to lure in Anakin.

    Then again, he certainly didn't seem to see that Mace kick to the face coming...

    [​IMG]
     
  18. PCCViking

    PCCViking 5X Wacky Wednesday & 4x Hangman Winner star 10 VIP - Game Winner

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    Jun 12, 2014
    Well, as the old song lyric goes, "Ain't it a kick in the head?" :p
     
  19. Darth Formidious

    Darth Formidious Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 19, 2015

    The ROTS commentary gets thrown around a lot, the commentary actually states that, Palpatine was "feigning weakness"! It was all orchestrated by him, George Lucas, Ian Mcdiarmid, Matthew Stover and an edition of Star Wars Insider knows this to be true!
     
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  20. OCD_Chad

    OCD_Chad Jedi Knight

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    May 12, 2017
    It makes for a better story if Sidious lost. Overpowered characters that can't be beaten without plot induced stupidity are boring. He doesn't need Anakin at all to become the emperor. That would have happened either way. But I think he does need him to save his life in this instance. Getting Anakin to turn is a nice bonus, but risking your life to do it?
     
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  21. JediAlanG

    JediAlanG Jedi Youngling

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    May 18, 2017
    I think the affirmation that Sidious threw the fight is far too simplistic and does great injustice to Mace Windu and his formidable powers. Sidious,like all Sith, was arrogant and was sure he would dispense with Windu as quickly as he had done with the other Jedi Masters. He didn't count on Windu being a Jedi with a difference .
    Windu's fighting style took Sidious by surprise, I think he was genuinely feared for his life at one point. If he had killed Mace before Anakin's arrival,he could have presented it as confirmation of the Jedi's plot and as a demonstration of the superiority of the Dark Side. I think Anakin would have joined him even in that scenario.
     
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  22. Erkan12

    Erkan12 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 27, 2013
    Anakin deformed by Obi-Wan.
    Palpatine deformed by Mace.
     
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  23. Rossini18

    Rossini18 Jedi Knight

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    Jan 3, 2016
    Ha ha, yeah, that's what I've always though and it seems evident that was Ian's interpretation of the characters motivations/given circumstances at the time.
     
  24. ImpreciseStormtrooper

    ImpreciseStormtrooper Jedi Master star 3

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    Jan 8, 2016
    Heh. I remember all the debate on this topic.

    For me, it was always clear Palpatine threw the fight because he had one eye on Anakin the whole time. If he was truly getting beaten, he'd had given Mace his full attention.

    For me it was never in question because that's how it played out.

    The fact than Ian basically is confirming that scene had little to do with Mace and everything to do with Anakin confirms that.

    It looked like he threw the fight because that's how Ian played it.

    QED. [face_party]
     
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  25. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    Mace did beat Palpatine and Palpatine only feigned weakness at the very end when Mace was about to strike. Ian's comments on that video are more tongue-in-cheek than anything else.
     
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