PT Palpatine's (failed) plan to keep Vader on a leash

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Seagoat, Jun 28, 2014.

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  1. Seagoat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2013
    star 4
    He had at last done it. Years of manipulating the galaxy and working behind the scenes to topple the Jedi and the Republic had come to fruition, and he had manipulated Anakin Skywalker, the Chosen One and only true threat to his power, into becoming his apprentice.
    However, betrayal is the way of the Sith, and even Palpatine knew that Vader wold become more powerful than he is, as he told Yoda before their duel.
    Let's assume that Darth Vader either defeated Obi-Wan or at least walked away from the duel uninjured.
    Now what was Palpatine's plan to avoid being overthrown?
    The only logical power that he would forever hold over Vader was Padme. Control the fate of Padme, control Darth Vader himself

    However, there is one discrepancy here within the novelization of ROTS. Palpatine makes it clear that, despite using her as the main catalyst to turn Anakin to the dark side, that he would do away with her, as such an emotional attachment would be detrimental to a Sith Lord. But... without Padme, and assuming he was never injured on Mustafar, what did Palpatine have to prevent Vader from overthrowing him?

    I considered placing this in the saga section because I could ask this same question about his plans for Luke if he was able to turn him, but I decided on the PT section just to keep it general. Mods, move it if it needs to be. Now, discuss!: D
  2. Visitant Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 20, 2014
    star 1
    I've wondered about this too. Uhh...well, maybe the Palpatine has such strength in the dark side of the Force, that if you fall to the dark side, you're automatically under his sway? That would explain how he planned to keep both Vader and Luke on a leash. However, if that were the case, Vader's plan to kill Palpatine after Luke had turned to the dark side wouldn't make any sense. Hmmm...
  3. Alexrd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    His own power? Like he said to Yoda, he believes Vader will become more powerful than him, but not at the moment.
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  4. Seagoat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2013
    star 4
    So you're saying his plan is to become more powerful so that when Vader becomes more powerful he'll still be the one on top? This makes little sense

    GL stated that, injuries notwithstanding, Vader had the potential to be around 150% as powerful as Palpatine. If power is based on Midi-Chlorian count, we can compare Vader's natural ~20,000 to Palpatine's calculated ~13,500, showing that Vader would still be the more powerful no matter what
  5. The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 10, 2011
    star 4
    I guess Palpatine had simply resigned himself to the knowledge that his apprentice would eventually surpass and replace him. That interpretation would be at odds with the interpretations of Palpatine's character that have him seeing himself as above standard Sith philosophy, but there you have it.

    Either that, or he was just taunting Yoda. In which case Palpatine planned to do away with Vader before he actually became more powerful than him.
    Last edited by The_Phantom_Calamari, Jun 28, 2014
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  6. Force Smuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    I'm certain that Palpatine would have arranged something.
  7. Alexrd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    You asked what Palpatine had to prevent Vader from overthrowing him, without Padmé as leverage. I'm saying that Palpatine's own power would prevent that, specially when at that point in time Vader wasn't more powerful than him. It had the potential to be, and that's why he worked so hard to turn him.
  8. thejeditraitor Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2003
    star 4
    just like in the duel, anakin is arrogant when he says he can overthrow the emperor. it's possible that he could kill palps one on one but palps is much craftier than anakin. keep i mind that palps says to yoda, "darth vader will be more powerful than either of us!". will be. will be because anakin has not yet reached his full potential.

    if anakin had taken padme with him and tried to kill palps, there would have been a crazy fight and palps would have called every troop on coruscant to kill anakin. then anakin would either have died or escaped injured and gone into hiding.
  9. JEDI-RISING Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 15, 2005
    star 3
    Sith know that their apprentices' will try to overthrow them at some point. Not to mention Sidious had no way to cheat death forever.
  10. CT-867-5309 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    I do think the "Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us" is one last taunt, just in case Yoda kills him, he says it after Yoda hurls him over his desk and cuts off his escape.

    That aside, I'll stipulate otherwise.

    There's always simple tricks and nonsense. Palpatine played Anakin for over a decade, I think he can keep doing it at least for a while. If not, there's always the hard way. Darth Vader was supposed to be more powerful than Obi-Wan, but Obi-Wan still won because Vader was stupid. There's no reason Palpatine can't outsmart Vader and defeat him in a fight, regardless of how many midi-chlorians Vader weighed in at.
  11. Seagoat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2013
    star 4
    @CT-867-5309
    The only reason Vader was being stupid in that duel was because he was consumed by his rage over the assumption that Obi-Wan had turned his wife against him, so he had lost everything he even turned the dark side for. It's obvious that he deeply regretted turning and killing everyone as he did, but felt he had to for Padme's sake, and with her (as he had thought) now against him, all he could think about was revenge on Obi-Wan
    Take blind rage out of the picture, and you probably would have an unstoppable Vader
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  12. CT-867-5309 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    I think Anakin was stupid for about ten years before his duel with Obi-Wan, or at the very least was manipulated by Palpatine, so....I stand by my post.
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  13. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    The fact that he felt he had to turn to the Dark Side for Padme's sake makes him so stupid, it's a wonder he had opposable thumbs to hold his lightsaber.
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  14. Among the Clouds Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2001
    star 4
    Palpatine played on Anakin's vulnerabilities from the beginning. He manipulated him and molded him until he was right where he wanted him. And he went thru all that trouble because he knew that Vader did in fact have the potential to become more powerful than he. So when he made that remark to Yoda, he was being honest, but he was speaking in the future tense. It wouldn't happen overnight, but Vader could one day become more powerful. At least until Obi-Wan defeated him in the duel. As to how Palpatine would keep Vader at bay, it was Palpatine who was not only the master, but also the Emperor of the galaxy. On one hand, Vader wants to learn the ways of the dark side and discover the way to cheat death. As far as he knows, Vader needs Palpatine around to accomplish these things. And on the other, the Emperor is guarded day in and day out by his guards, attendants, and army. If Vader wants to someday be able to control all these people, he needs to earn his place. Simply overthrowing Palpatine isn't going to do him any favors with the Senate or with anyone else, especially given his background as a Jedi. Padme is simply a way he can keep Vader in line, but it's not the only way. And after Vader is nearly killed on Mustafar, his injuries and the suit become new methods Palpatine can use to continue keeping Vader around as his #2.
  15. EntechednReformatted Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 17, 2009
    star 1
    I think Sidious fully expected Vader to become the mightiest Sith Lord to ever live. I also think Sidious was very much looking forward to enslaving the mightiest Sith Lord to ever live.

    The Sith are all about power ... becoming strong in the Force is not The Goal, it's just a means to acquiring power. Remember, no matter how strong Vader became, Sidious would always have one major, nearly insurmountable advantage: he's the Emperor, the supreme ruler of the galaxy. That's power that goes beyond Force skill. Sidious doesn't need to be able to personally defeat Vader in battle in order to keep Vader under his thumb. Remember what happened to the Jedi. The Emperor could issue an Order 66 on Vader at any time. And don't think Sidious wouldn't have done it in a heartbeat. This is the guy who killed Plagueis in his sleep. He doesn't give a damn about honorable combat for the position of Sith Master. As long as Vader remains with the Empire, he lives or dies at Palpatine's word. Even if Vader hadn't been injured on Mustafar, I expect he would have learned that lesson very quickly.

    It's not like every king or dictator in history was able to hold onto power only be being able to personally beat up any of his subordinates.
  16. DARTHLINK Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 24, 2005
    star 3
    Yep, all the raw physical power in the world mean little when the emperor/dictator can assign a group of assassins to surprise attack you in the middle of the night because you dropped out of favor. It's not the brawn that keeps the emperor/dictator alive, it's the brains. It's keeping one step ahead of his/her enemies (suspected or real), it's making calculations and deciding the best possible outcome. It's doing whatever it takes to keep him/her in power.

    So yes, Palpatine very much succeeded in keeping Vader on a leash. It's only when he got distracted by torturing Luke that he dropped all security measures and Vader was able to get him from behind.
    Last edited by DARTHLINK, Aug 19, 2014
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  17. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    And yet when it comes to turning Luke Palpatine's best idea was to just ask him to turn to the dark side a few times before giving up and deciding to kill him.
  18. Seagoat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2013
    star 4
    He didn't exactly have 15 years to build him up to dark side material from a young age. The best ace in the hole he had was using Vader's fall as an example
  19. xx_Anakin_xx Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 9, 2008
    star 4
    Tried to arrange something, but he quite obviously failed to understand who he was dealing with in the end - even after many many years.
  20. SkywalkerJedi02 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 2013
    star 1
    He had him tricked from the get go and he made certain things happen to manipulate Anakin over the years and especially telling him thq he killed Padme when it wasn't true and Anakin himself felt that this was the case and yeah palpatine had him on a leash but I believe Anakin would of taken over at any moment if he could as he see with him saying that he wanted to be the emperor to rule the galaxy along side his The love of his life Padme.


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  21. redlightning Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 1, 2014
    star 2
    In the original draft of ROTJ, the Emperor uses the Force to stop Vaders breathing apparatus. In TCW he Force chokes Dooku from across the Galaxy. Palpating was strong enough to kill either one of them from a long distance away with just the Force.
  22. Meyerm Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 2014
    star 2
    "Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us!"- Palpatine when battling Yoda.

    That line always confused me. It's not typical sith behavior for a master to think of his apprentice as a worthy replacement for them, let alone accepting that they will become more powerful.
  23. Oissan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 9, 2001
    star 6
    It's not?
    That is the whole purpose of the rule of two, finding someone who is a worthy successor, who can best you and thus prove that the Sith will be even stronger in the future. Sure, a Sith may want to be in charge himself, and he will try to make sure he will be as powerful as he can possibly be, but overall it's survival of the fittest. If the apprentice surpasses the master, the master knows that the Sith will be in good hands and have an even bigger chance of challenging the Jedi. The common goal of beating the Jedi tops being the master.

    Though it would indeed be interesting what would happen if the two Sith fight, one gets killed while the other either gets crippled or will die from his wounds as well. This setup is rather dangerous to the Sith as well, as they can weaken or destroy themselves rather easily.
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  24. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Alternatively:

  25. Meyerm Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 2014
    star 2
    I guess my train of thought comes for from Darth Plagueis and his idea that training your murderer was a strange idea. Although, I think by that time Palpatine too wanted to break the cycle by achieving a limited form of immortality like how The Sith Emperor did, evident by Palpatine's clone bodies.
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