PT Palpatines' Kidnap

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Garrett Atkins, Feb 11, 2013.

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  1. SHAD0W-JEDI Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 3
    This isn't a complaint - more of an observation/question... do the Sith know about the Rule of Two? I would assume they do. Which would, I would think, have them constantly on guard whenever a potential Sith #3 pops up, since there ain't gonna be three for long, one way or another! Given that, I always assumed that Dooku went along with plans to turn Anakin figuring that when the time came, he would defeat Anakin (and Sidious would retain HIM as his apprentice). When Vader fought Luke in ROTJ, I got a much greater sense of resignation there - Vader was going to lose, either way (he seemed to feel more like a slave than an ally by that point).

    So why didn't Dooku blurt out the truth once defeated? No easy answers,but I thought it was a combination of things... a hope that at the last moment Anakin would "regain his senses" and/or his Master would back off, a fear that saying something might lead to rash action (oops), etc.
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  2. ILNP Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2011
    star 1
    Greivous never intended for his ship to BE blown in half.
  3. Samnz Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 2
    Why did Tarkin wait on the Death Star until the Death Star was destroyed and they all died?
    Why did the Imperial Senate allow itself to be dissolved? (remember: you shouldn't have to watch Ep. I - III in order to understand Ep. IV :D )
    Why didn't Jabba kill Han immediately? Why didn't he shoot Luke when he was fighting the rancor?
    Why did Palpatine visit the Death Star even though he knew the first one was already destroyed and the second one wasn't even finished? Why didn't he kill Vader after he was defeated by Luke to avoid unnecessary danger?
    Why didn't Vader just freeze Luke and moved him somewhere he couldn't flee and tried to turn him then?
    Why, why, why....because, as others have explained several times, they are HUMAN. Humans aren't perfect. Neither are maschines, as Star Wars shows. Humans make mistakes and sometimes they have to pay the price for it. Accept it.

    Btw, have you noticed a difference in terms of the "dumb" characters if you compare your examples with mine?
    initial aid: anakinfansince1983 helped you with her words in another thread: "the plot demands it."
    Last edited by Samnz, Feb 13, 2013
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  4. Garrett Atkins Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 11, 2013
    star 4
    1. Tarkin thought that Vader had killed all the pilots, and they had Yavin in range.
    2. Fear of the Emperor, obviously.
    3. Jabba's amusement got the best of him, Grievous had no audience.
    4. He didn't think Vader had the strength. He wanted to torture Luke for not turning to the Dark Side.
    5. Uh, he tried.
    6. Why didn't Grievous have hundreds of Battle Droids shoot at Obi-Wan when he jumped right in the middle of the battle field on Utapau? Because he is an idiot who has no common sense (and can't fight).
  5. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    Or, he was simply arrogant enough to believe that Kenobi couldn't beat him alone.
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  6. Lazy Storm Trooper Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 18, 2012
    star 4
    1. Probably panicking and was not thinking.
    2. He is a wimp.
    3. 5/50 chance
    4. Nope.
    5. That would be too long an answer.
  7. Garrett Atkins Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 11, 2013
    star 4
    Probably not the greatest plot when the villian you're hunting is a wimp, is it?
  8. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    1. Because Dooku knew that neither Anakin nor the Jedi would believe him. According to Yoda, "Lies, deceit, and creating mistrust are Dooku's ways now."
    2. Yes, Dooku getting killed is part of PalpSidious' plan because he wanted a new apprentice who is "far younger and more powerful". He wanted Anakin to be his apprentice.
    3. No, Dooku didn't have a say because he didn't know about the plan until it was too late.
    4. Then, Anakin wouldn't have fallen further to the Dark Side and he would've escorted Dooku and the rest to a ship where they will return to Coruscant and Anakin would've taken Dooku to the Jedi Temple where Dooku would reveal the identity of Darth Sidious to the Jedi.
  9. Ambervikings91 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 1, 2012
    star 2
    here we go with more lists from this guy....
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  10. KilroyMcFadden Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 3
    1. I'm with you. That question comes up every time we watch that movie. It was a dumb scene and a peice of really bad writing.
    2. His orders, whoever they were issued by, seemed to be to take and hold Palpatine hostage. Those orders wouldn't have changed just because someone attempted to rescue him. However, it is dumb that he didn't execute the Jedi and take their lightsabers immediately. That is just lazy writing and was only done because the plot needed it.
    3. I don't think the Emperor cared which one of them survived. Anakin doesn't really matter in the scheme of things, he had been planning the downfall of the Jedi long before he knew about Anakin's potential.
    4. Only the amount of say that any general has; He was ordered by a superior to accomplish an objective and had a free hand to do so using whatever the rules of engagement and the organization's budget oversight committee allowed him to do.
    5. If Anakin lost, the Emperor would still be in control of the most powerful Sith he could find. Turning Anakin to Sith was only tangential to his many, many schemes.
    Last edited by KilroyMcFadden, Feb 23, 2013
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  11. Oissan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 9, 2001
    star 6
    I don't see anything wrong with that scene. Dooku knew that he was supposed to lose to Anakin, that was the whole plan. When Palpatine deviated from that plan by ordering Anakin to kill Dooku, it caught Dooku off guard. He looked completely shocked by that turn and didn't quite get it back together in the few seconds he had left. It's not like he had a lot of time to even start speaking, we are talking about maybe five seconds or so, a short enough period to have Dooku still reeling in shock.
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  12. Eryndil Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 18, 2012
    star 3
    There have been some very good and reasonable suggestions made in answer to the OP's questions. Unfortunately, the rest of the thread shows that it's pointless to even try to answer these questions. Firstly because they are all a matter of interpretation, which will be different for every viewer, and secondly because the OP doesn't seem to want answers so much as an opportunity to tell people who liked the PT that they are wrong. This thread feels very, very familiar... :rolleyes:

    I'm looking forward to finding a thread where everyone discusses Star Wars in an amicable way, respecting each other's opinions and accepting that people are not necessarily wrong simply because they don't like the same things.
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  13. Darth Chiznuk Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 5
    =D==D==D==D= ^ This x100!
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  14. heels1785 Jedi Draft and Streak for Colors Commissioner

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2003
    star 6
    I'm not entirely sure about Dooku going into his fight with Anakin knowing he was supposed to lose- he's a pretty smart and proud one, and had to do the math on where he would end up in the Rule of Two, were he defeated. The same can be said with Vader bringing Luke to Sidious in ROTJ, but (even though Vader defended Sidious) I think the possibility of Sidious being the one taken out was more likely in the second scenario. Sidious has shown no tolerance for Ventress or Maul, so the question of Dooku and Anakin co-existing is also out of the picture.

    I think the likelier scenario is Dooku saw the impending duel as what it was- a survival fight to remain by Sidious' side, but he is still shocked at how quickly his Master turns on him, given the perfection to which Dooku had engineered the Clone Wars for his benefit.
    Last edited by heels1785, Feb 23, 2013
  15. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    Per novel, Dooku knew if he won - great. If he didn't, Anakin would "not kill him" and he could sit out the rest of the war until Sids gained control and then be pardoned.
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  16. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    This plan makes no sense from Dooku's POV and very little sense from Palpatines POV.

    For Dooku, he would know that Anakin would want pay back for the loss of his arm so if indeed Anakin is stronger than him then he could get killed in the fight. Even assuming that he looses and isn't killed, Dooku has to be really stupid to trust Palpatine. The Sith aren't know for being trustworthy and always keeping their word. If he looses then he would have shown Palpatine that he isn't strong enough and Palpatine would delete him.
    Esp with the rule of two in force and Dooku would know about it.
    Even with all that aside, he is on a ship, in the middle of a big fight and his ship could get shot at and destroyed, which almost happened.
    So he is putting his own life in danger here. And why? If he wins then he gains nothing and if he looses then there is a good chance he would die, so why do this? Palpatine's orders? Well that is posible but then all Dooku has to do is to put a bomb on the shuttle that takes Palpatine from the surface and BOOM, he is now the no 1 Sith.

    With Vader, I got the sense that he knew that the fight with Luke would only end in one of two ways, either Luke kills him and Luke turns or he kills Luke. Either way he looses. Why does he go along with this apparent suicide? Again I got the sense that he had no choice, that he HAD to obey Palpatines commands, no matter how much he hated them. "I MUST obey my Master!" Vader says.

    For Palpatine the plan is also needlesly risky. The ship he is on could get blown up at any time and this would destroy the Sith, not to mention himself.
    Add to that, how could he know that Anakin would be the first/only Jedi that would reach him? As far as I know, Anakin wasn't on Coruscant when Palpatine was taken so other Jedi could have mounted a rescue before Anakin got back.
    And how would he know that Anakin would even be able to get to him, what if he got killed outside? What would he do then? Just sit there until Griev's ship gets blown up? Also, how did Palpatine figure to leave the ship assuming that Anakin did get onboard and won the fight?
    All the others onboard, including Griev, don't know that he is Sidious so they won't follow his orders and could try to kill him.

    If Palpatine only wanted to pit Anakin and Dooku against each other then he had lots of other options that was far less risky and had far fewer variables.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
    Last edited by Samuel Vimes, Feb 24, 2013
  17. Sistros Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2010
    star 6
    There have been some very good and reasonable suggestions made in answer to the OP's questions. Unfortunately, the rest of the thread shows that it's pointless to even try to answer these questions.

    ---

    well to be fair, some people have given very good and reasonable suggestions why the answers (although good and well thought out) don't really work

    (post above me for example)
  18. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    I agree that Palpatine's overall plan did not depend on Anakin, but he did seem to have a preference:

    "Soon I will have a new apprentice... one far younger and more powerful."

    "Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us."
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Feb 24, 2013
  19. Eryndil Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 18, 2012
    star 3
    Indeed - as I said, it's a matter of interpretation (what we think that Dooku/Palpatine might have been thinking) so there can't be a definitive answer (unless George Lucas pops into the thread). And that wasn't the only reason why any attempt to answer the questions was pointless, as I mentioned. But friendly discussion is always a good thing :)
    Last edited by Eryndil, Feb 24, 2013
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  20. TheRevanchist Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 13, 2012
    star 2
    According to Revenge of the Sith novelization, Dooku was ordered from Palps to kill Kenobi and lose from Skywalker. Skywalker would have arrested him and will be viewed as an even more bigger hero. Then Palps will turn Skywalker to the dark side and he will create an army of dark force users which will replace the Jedi Order. Of course, that this was never Palpatine plan, but he made Dooku to believe it, thought Dooku wasn't convinced about Palpatine ability.

    When Sid ordered Anakin to kill Dooku, in the next five seconds Dooku just realized what a fool he has been for trusting Palpatine and the entire Jedi Order, and without having time to do anything, his head was chopped.
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