Palpatine's Real Plans... the True Intentions of the Sith

I am not sure this has already been discussed, if so point me to the topic. If not, here it goes :

Darth Sidious, elusive dark lord of the sith. What were his plans... his intentions and his planned destiny for his minions?

As we all know, Sidious made a pact with Nute Gunray. What was the pact? Did Sidious intend for the blockade to fail? What was he trying to achieve by having Nute Gunray at his disposal... he cannot hope to gain power with a single droid army.

Well here is how i see some of the above. Sidious wanted the blockade to take place, so he could convince Queen Amidala to have Valorum voted out of office and thus have himself as Supreme Chancellor.

Even then, Sidious seemed surprised Queen Amidala was going to return to Naboo instead of following his plans. When she went to Naboo, Sidious told Nute Gunray that she was an even bigger fool than he thought. Cleary he did not intend to have Amidala destroy the Trade Federation's blockade forces.
Even if he did, why did he send Darth Maul?


In Attack of the Clones Dooku tells Obi-Wan Nute Gunray came to him telling him of how Sidious betray him. Why did Sidious betray Nute Gunray? I mean, was it his intention for Darth Maul to die and the blockade to fail? Well, Sidious could not have planned Anakin serving him, because Dooku he had not even met at the time and Maul was still his apprentice... meaning his plans were not as great as actually thought at first.
This shroud of mystery that makes us wonder what Sidious' true intentions are leaves us with many questions. So what were Sidious' real intentions???

To have the blockade fail, him to become Supreme Chancellor and Maul to die, replaced by Dooku?

Here comes the most difficult part.
Why did he let Dooku side with the Separatists, when he was in command of the Republic? Sure, he did it to get the Clone Armies, but even when he got them, why have Dooku continue to help his new enemies?

What is this madness... even if in ROTS things will be explained, what were Sidious' intentions during TPM? He could not accomplish the Separatist movement with Maul, he needed Dooku to do it. So did he mean for Maul to die?

 

Well, when someone sets out to become a Tyrant (not an easy task) he needs to do three simple things.

1-Get power through position and military
2-Dispose of all who will endanger his rule
3-Make sure that his subject will not rise against him

1-So, Sidius becomes Supreme Chancellor, using the Trade Federation in TPM. Had it not failed to keep Naboo, it would create a lot of tension and mistrust with it's actions. Don't forget that the Federation as well as most of the guilds have big "battle hardened armies".

2-After the death of Darth Maul the artifficial tension he wanted to create did not succeed. He needs another way to gather up all systems and guilds that have sizable armies and destroy them legaly. Thus the Separatist movement. Funny how it seems that all involved in the Separatist movement have organized armies and they are going to use them to kill off all the Jedi and force the Senate to

3-Give emergency powers to Palp, an army and the love o f the people towards their savior.

Sounds good to me.....

 

" 2-After the death of Darth Maul the artifficial tension he wanted to create did not succeed. He needs another way to gather up all systems and guilds that have sizable armies and destroy them legaly. Thus the Separatist movement. Funny how it seems that all involved in the Separatist movement have organized armies and they are going to use them to kill off all the Jedi and force the Senate to...."

Good point - thats why theres a ten year lapse between the films - Im sure Sidious didnt want to wait ten more years on top of how ever many years he has already waited. And I think your wrong about something Timothor: that Palpatines ambitions werent as lofty as Galactic Emporer from the very beginning. I think they were.

 

I've always thought the events of AOTC were a reaction to what happened in TPM. Since he failed with the Trade Federation, and also saw how the droids were failures, he had to do something.

So he came up with the clone army idea and engineered a way for it to occur.

His final intentions I do not think ever changed, he just adapted his plans as he needed to deal with those pesky Jedi intefering.

 

In TPM, he was setting it all up to get in the chancellor's seat. He didn't want Padme returning to Naboo because he wanted to reign in that "sympathy vote," and if Padme goes and ousts the trade federation, no dice.

In AOTC, he needed to create a "threat," to garner some more power from the senators. So he gets Dooku on board, stirs up trouble by starting this whole Seperatist thing, and then scares the senators into giving him those tasty emergency powers. He's got Dooku in his pocket, so the Seperatists aren't his enemy at all. They are simply a means to an end. And boy does that work out.

In ROTS, I'd imagine he's going to cement his position as emperor, and mainly focus on reigning in Anakin/taking out the Jedi.

In ANH, he finally does away with the senate completely. He's got nothing to stop him now that he has the death star. He's hit his crest.

In ESB, he's still riding high despite his troubles at the end of ANH. He sees a storm on the horizon, and starts trying to quell it.

In ROTJ, he tries to replace his short-circuiting sidekick, and at the same time eliminate his only threat. He obviously fails at that. The prophecy is fulfilled, and all is well in the universe.

 

very interesting... it answers many of my questions if not all. but did he expect the Trade Federation alone to be a cause for the emergency powers?

 

No, he would probably use the Federation's politics to drag all systems with "liberal" definitions of freedom and justice (and big guns) around them.

The Federation is still the biggest player in the CIS. Do you remember Dooku saying that once they've signed in 10,000 more systems would join?

In both cases they would be used as magnets for the others. That's why they're trying to kill Padme.

Sidius coudn't care less for her.In fact this "favour" Gunray asked ( head on a plate and all) led to the downfall of the Empire later on, since that was the trigger that brought Ani and Padme together, and of coure the twins.

 

Wow, so it means Nute Gunray plays a much bigger part than i thought! Great, he's one of my favourite characters. So Maul was the 'Dooku' of the blockade in TPM and his death did not mean Nute Gunray out of action.

So Palpatine was still using Nute even after the blockade, just not directly...

 

Pretty much. *nods*

I'd say it's fairly obvious Palps wanted Padme to go back to Naboo. I'd say he was planning for the Trade Federation to mercilessly exterminate them, and then start a war b/w the Trade Federation and the Republic over this. Or option 2:

Trade Federation gobbles up Naboo, nothing really happens to them. Sidious directs them-and possibly other commerce groups, too- to start doing things like this repeatedly over the next ten years. *Then* he tricks the Jedi into coming public with the Clone Army, has the TF and the other group declare themselves opposed to the central government, bang, clone wars start. I don't think Anakin was part of his plan until the very end of TPM, when Maul died.

IMO, he was planning for Maul to impersonate a Jedi (I'd say the Kaminoans presumably don't know what Master Sypho-Dias looks like) and place the order.

Or-plan 3:

1. Have Trade Federation lose at Naboo. Ensure through corruption of the courts that nothing happens to them.

2. (This assumes Dooku was under Palpatine's influence during the events of TPM): Have Dooku contact Master Sypho-Dias, show him evidence of the coming war (or hell, perhaps the Naboo conflict was enough to convince Sypho-Dias the Republic needed an army) and use him to create the clone army.

3. Groom Anakin to be your Jedi Killer (this is what it seems Maul was originally planned to be-a weapon to mop up whatever the droid & clone armies missed.)

4. Ensure own power by possibly fermenting various miniature wars, not necessarily by the the buddies over at TF, but smaller, planetary conflicts tro keep the Jedi occupied, as well as pick off a Jedi or two every now and then.

5. Once clone army is ready, begin final plans. Use Padme again to convince senate of growing Seperatist threat and to get emergency powers. Have Jedi discover the clone army and bring it into the war. Wait until opportune time-Anakin fully trained, Jedi at lowest levels and highly dispersed-to end war and srping the trap-turn the clone army on the Jedi, declare emergency powers. Off the Seppy leadership, disband the droid armies, game over.

 

Got to admit it though, the man is in a win-win situation. He's top dog and he deserves it.

 

Yup...til Anakin & Padme started doing the horizontal bop. Odd how the path to his victory is also the seeds of his defeat.

The message of Star Wars:

Good guys Having sex when it's not allowed=doom for all bad guys.

 

Well, this could be a long one, but here's my version of Palpatine's plan.

Palpatine chooses Naboo out of all planets to be blockaded so Amaidala will come to him and he in turn becomes Chancellor. The Trade Federation battle is probably somethin Palpatine could care less about as when he becomes Chancellor he would end the whole Naboo mess anyway. The battle itself is supposed to happen. Palpatine actually wanted Padme to return (The novel of TPM suggests this.) The battle would go to show the whole galaxy how weak the Republic is and they can't even solve a conflict over one single planet because they are so caught up in the little things, that when something big happens, they can't handle it. Even if Naboo do win (which they do), it goes to show that the Republic can't settle this whole thing without having death involved.
Thus, planets and systems that probably already didn't like the Republic anyway, as well as some who are taken aback by this whole thing, begin to seperate from the Republic.

My guess that Palpatine sent Maul is simply to show that as Sidious he did want the TF to win, and they could kill what was planned to be 2 Jedi, reveal themselves, and show the Jedi they are real and formidable opponents. They then dissapear for 10 years, though traces that they still exist after Maul's death appear, showing that they are clearly playing a big part in the whole Separitist thing.

Dooku is then selected as the next apprentice, and Dooku appears to the Kaminoans with the name of Sifo-Dyas (I could be wrong here), and orders the army. He hires Jango as the source as Tyrannus. Thus, the dark side controls both sides of the war, with Palpatine having emergency powers. He then is in a win-win situation. If the Seperatists win, Palpatine takes over and everyone find out the truth and Palpatine rules. If the Seperatists lose, Palpatine declares himself Emperor, and well there is ROTS.

I don't know, I could be wrong, correct away.

 

From what I have seen in TPM and AOTC, Sidious/Palpatine is manipulating multiple parties i.e. Trade Federation and the Senate via the Blockade in TPM and later the rise of the Separatists in AOTC all to unhinge the Republic.

One example of this: Nute Gunray asks Sidious if the Attack on Naboo is legal, to which Sidious replies "I will make it legal" which implies that he has the ability to manipulate the Senate.

Re: Maul and Dooku - Bearing in mind that loyalty is a fragile thing amongst Sith - any failure by an apprentice to Sidious would be considered unworthiness in Sidious' view.

Maul mentions to Sidious that it is time to exact revenge on the Jedi and reveal themselves to the Jedi -something which Sidious doesn't contradict Maul on,so with his failure to dispatch the Jedi on Tatooine Maul is spoiling for a fight with the Jedi.

The subsequent failure of Maul to defeat the Jedi and survive is signal enough to Sidious that Maul wouldn't have been up to the many planned tasks ahead.

Enter Dooku as the next apprentice, his name and position allow him access to the Trade Federation plus no material connection with Sidious thus beginning the number of deceptions he employs for his master on the Separatists(who are pawns to Sidious).

Dooku is duplicitous in how he presents his loyalties - at one point trying to lure Obi-Wan with mention of a Sith controlling the Republic(as if that his motivation for leading the Separatists).

Yet it is to Sidious that he reports to at the end of AOTC and yet during the Clone Army attack on Geonosis he mentions how the 'His Master' will not allow the Republic to get away with such treachery.

The understanding of the Sith I have is that they saw that their Force abilities means they should rule the Galaxy and have others serve them,whereas the Jedi see their Force abilities as a means to serve the Galaxy.

This being said how could Sidious not be thinking of Total Domination??

As far as planning goes, Sidious/Palpatine had plenty of time to think on strategies for his plans and also made many contingency plans should anything go awry along the way.

The Nazis were mentioned in this thread and if you look at their history Hitler used the SA until there purpose was served, when that ended he ended them and the SS become the predominant henchman of the Nazis.

In like manner IMO Maul,Dooku and Anakin were all used to the maximum of their abilities during their respective times by Sidious as he needed a right hand man to do dirty work and be in places that Sidious himself could not be due to his other duties...

 

I like the way Lucas clearly shows that the difference between Palpatine(i.e Sith) and the Jedi is the difference between righteous(indeed sometimes TOO righteous) spirituality and abhorrated technology (he makes it clear that technology isnt evil unless its controlled by evil). For all his great powers, Palpatines' greatness cannot be achieved, at least in his evil mind, without many weapons, an over-sized army and ultimately a deathstar. I think it was the right move to include the deathstar in the PT and showing it truly as one of the strong focal points of the entire Saga. Its really the only aspect of the films where Lucas is pandering to adults only. Ive said it before and Ill say it again - a moon that can enter any system and destroy its planets is definitley the most original and sinister God-complex metaphor ever put on film or book and most likely will remain that way forever. To be an all powerful god is Palpatines' true ambition.

 

'To be an all powerful god is Palpatines' true ambition.'

Yes, oh yes, that is his goal. And why is this so?

Probably because he hates life, everything passing away and all. Bogus!! And he feels he's part of that as well, he fears passing away.
He doesn't want to!!! NO!

If only he could stop the flow of things, create a static reality, only then could he be satisfied. And it takes an all powerfull god to create such a thing, doesn't it?

 

The one question I keep asking about Sidious is about this blockade-thing. Was it his intention that Amidala would get away from the planet (Naboo)? It doesn?t really seem like that, and hadn?t it been for this, he would never have become Chancellor, which really was the hard thing? So, I believe he must have had an alternative plan for the outcome of the blockade, but what can it have been?

 

He could have just as well asked for a vote of non confidence towards Chancellor Valoroum himself. In the best possible situation, Amidala would have signed the treaty, imprisoned in her palace. He, as a Senator would ask for an immediate solution, Valorum would offer a comitee yada yada.

Actually, Senators are more powerful than individual heads of state, I understand that they represent multiple systems.

And of course there is the obvious solution, he could just wear his stylish black robes and hood, and order Gunray to bring her to the senate. Or if she was killed he would probably announce himself as the new King of Naboo, since his homeworld would be under occupation.

And, the "baseless accusations"....who sais it wasn't him?

 

He wouldnt have had to have the army created on the sly. Valorum would have been bogged down still by his bureacrats and Palpatine would have been the one to have Valorum ousted. Instead of Clones the Republic would probably have a Droid army. He definetly already had a plan to to destroy the Jedi in his head at the time of TPM. After that, Emporer. Deathstar. Galactic Despot.

 

He wouldnt have had to have the army created on the sly. Valorum would have been bogged down still by his bureacrats and Palpatine would have been the one to have Valorum ousted.
-------

It?s ok that Valorum would been thrown anyway, but what really makes Palpatine Chancellor is sympathy votes. I?m not sure he would have got as many of those, had it not been for Amidala herself. This depends though, on how well escalated Palpatine really was as a senator, was he one of the most popular and best-known?

 

I always thought that the sympathy votes had more to do with Palps influencing the minds of his fellow Senators (their pockets, their carreers etc), rather than the creepy-geisha-ghost look Padme had.

Even if he cannot infuence minds to that extend, he could very well learn dirty secrets for everyone. That I'm sure he can do.

 

the seperatist plot had importance in palpatines new order as well. notice in a new hope how all of the men involved with the empire are stuffy brits. i dont think it was due to a stagnant casting staff either. palpatine wanted as many weird looking aliens to be seperatists as he could get so that he could have senate supported powers to weed them all out. giving him an empire of tired old white guys.

 

This is how i like to think it goes, IMO:

First Plan:

As Sidious, he convinces the TF to go along with his plan (Maybe promises them a victory and lots of benifits when his plan is finished). He wants them to invade Naboo so he can become Supreme Chancellor (this part is obvious).

Once this part is complete then the TF would band together with others and form the Separatists. He would then, as Chancellor he would keep the republic week and have the Separatists take over with their driod army, and he would become Emperor Sidious. Now you could argue that this isnt so, that he wanted to make the clone army etc, but heres my justification; If he didnt want to use the driod army completely why didnt he go with the clones to begin with? Not have the resources? This is Palps we're talking about, he'd find a way. So IMO he wanted to use the Droids to begin with.

The biggest threat to his plan were the Jedi, so he needed an apprentice that could handle them, enter Maul. I think he trained Maul a long time (only) about Dueling. It shows this b/c Maul uses a double bladed saber, which implies more then one opponent. Maul was to hunt down the Jedi in small groups(Probably 2 at a time, Master and Padawan) untill he made a big enough dent that other means could be used. Maul IMO was ment to kill most of the Jedi (except maybe the Big 2, who Sidious would leave for himself), and i think Maul could have done it, i mean he was in control in TPM duel, Obi-wan got lucky at the end.

That was the plan. Then he hit a few bumps in the road.

First Padame decided to fight back, and i think Palps was nervous about testing this army so soon, before it really built up. And in the end the driods get defeated, so that shakes up his plan.

He does get elected, so that worked out, Maul gets killed, and now theres no one to destroy the Jedi.

Finally a big blow is that he hears (not seen on screen) that the jedi have found the chosen one, a demigod, and being a sith lord i would bet he knows the legend, and is scared of it. So the Improvisions begin...

He desides at the end of TPM that he will turn Anakin to the dark side, so he will kill the Jedi. But that will take time, so he finds Dooku and shows him the dark side, while cementing Dooku's lack of faith in the republic.

He knows that the Droid army isnt fit for what he has in mind, and turns to clones, so he has dooku order the clones, and set up the Separatists. He changes his mind and has the Republic beat the Separatists and become Emperor that way (harder to do b/c now he has to convince the Republic to give him "Emergency Powers").

So all that goes down in ten years, meanwhile hes influncing Anakin. I mean whats better then to take the weapon that was supposed to destroy you, and make it your own?

The Republic "wins" in the end. But hes now the Emperor, and Anakin turns to kill the Jedi.

Another slight road bump, Anakin gets thrown in lava, oh well, sith happens.

Many years go by with a Prosperous Empire.

He desolves the Senate. Builds the greatest WMD that you can think of. More sith happens, it gets blown up.

Then Vader starts to turn on him, well that wont do. Who better to replace him then his son, the son of a demigod?

Well that doesnt quite work, and wait! HOLY SITH! The chosen one still brings balence to the force.

So basicly hes a guy that has great vision of what needs to be done, and can improv if he has to, but in the end he is blind to what goes on right under his nose.

Wow, sorry for the long post.

*Steps down, picks up soapbox, and leaves the room*

 

First Palpatine used the Naboo situation (controlling it from both sides as Palpatine and Sidious) to prove how ineffectual the Senate was in getting anything done. To showcase how unweildy the buraucracy had become, and to paint Vallorum as an ineffectual leader, while simultaneously setting himself up for the sympathy vote as Palpatine.

I think his original plan was to have the TF invade and occupy Naboo, to have them force Amidala to sign their treaty, and then he was going to ride in on his white Horse as Palpatine to save the day from these horrible Niemodian truck drivers.

When Padme skipped the planet, he was visibly put off. Without the signed treaty, there wasn't nearly as much of a smoking gun.

When Padme finally got to Couruscant, he changed his original plan and used this new situation to his advantage. Even in his original plan, it would take someone else to call for the vote of no confidence in Vallorum, and who better than the 14 year old Queen from the peaceful planet of Naboo. I think originally, he was just stacking the deck against Vallorum, miring him with "baseless accusations of corruption". Eventually, someone would have made the call, but this ended up being better for him in the end, because he could directly manipulate Amidala because he was her representitive in the Senate.

The trade Federation felt betrayed by Sidious, because he had not actually made the invasion legal, and instead the Naboo situation caused a lot of legal problems for them, which they eventually quelled with enough high powered lawyers.

Sidious didn't intend to lose Maul, but he did intend for the Jedi order to find out about the re-emrgance of the Sith, to throw them even further off balance.

The reason he went with DooKu next, was because he was already highly trained in the Jedi arts, so he wouldn't have to start from scratch as he had with Maul, who he had trained since near birth.

The Separatists were created by DooKu and Sidious, to stir up more unrest and to stretch the Jedi's presence thin across the galaxy. Having this separatist threat apparently ready to take out the Republic prompted the citizens of the Galaxy to go along with Jar-Jar's motion for emergency powers because they had already seen where endless bickering got them in TPM. They were frightened, and ready to shed their rights so that Palpatine could supposedly do whatever needed to be done to protect the Republic, without the red tape of the senate.

 

i know this doesn't have anything to do with this thread, but i was struck by your sig. but, did george lucas really use "transition" as a verb???