PT Palpatine's secret plan with Dooku

So the film doesn't go into this, but it is canon as it's from the Novelization. In the Novel it says that

Darth Sidious on the invisible hand was telling Dooku to hold back vs Anakin.

He also told him to goat him on and try to turn him to the dark side.

Dooku wanted Obi-Wan sparred because he was like a grandson to him. (He taught the man who taught Obi-Wan)

So not only is this something really neat, it's something most don't seam to talk about, because most people watch the movie solely and don't know the gems that were kept out of the film. A common trend in Star Wars movies.

My questions are

1. What do you think of this?

2. What if Anakin was turned by Dooku and there were 3 sith lords?
Sidious's plan wouldn't have played out like he wanted, which was really a test of Anakin.

 

Anakin would have become an Inquisitor.

 

I don't think so. Sidious felt Anakin was a replacement, also that's a title to small for Anakin at his prime.

I think order 66 would happen anyways and then I guess they'd do the job of inquisitors,but like vader in rebels he'd be more of a right hand commanding them when they're made instead of being one.

 

Was Dooku aware of the Empire? Or did he think the is New Order would be with Confederacy? That what I'm curious to know. If so, I couldn't imagine Dooku leading an army of clone troopers without scratching my head for some reason.

 

Well Maul knew about sidious's plan it seams, so Dooku probably did. He did commission the whole clone thing. He basically did all the work while Sidious pulled the strings. Weather or not he knew about the reformation to the empire is not 100% clear, however in the ROTS novel a few things are made clear.

1. Dooku was to return to the republic as a Hero, after the death of the Jedi order

2.He was gonna use Grievous as a scapegoat (Which makes me lose respect for him, he irks me with that)

3. He definitely was planning on being in charge of clones as he was going to return to the republic "very soon" after he had the separatists lose.

The beginning part where Dooku was walking in the halls of the invisible hand made this all clear, sadly it wasn't made into flesh for the film because of how much they had to cover with it.

 

I find it an interesting (and somewhat logical) interpretation. One of the reasons I absolutely love Count Dooku as a character is that you are constantly wondering his motivation. Other main villains such as Tarkin and Gunray generally come off as simply power-hungry or greedy, but Christopher Lee's performance just gives you the sense that there is something more to his character. I think he plays very well into the whole mystery angle of AOTC, because his true aspirations are never revealed, just subtly hinted at through dialogue and acting. We are kind of invited, like the characters, to second-guess everything we assume about him: Is he telling the truth? Does he believe in his cause? Does he actually mourn Qui-Gon? When discussing Count Dooku with friends after watching AOTC, everyone comes out of it with a different interpretation of the character. One of the most interesting theories I have read on him - perhaps here? - was the conjecture that he actually never lies at all when talking to Obi-Wan: that he may fancy his fall to the Dark Side as a kind of "necessary evil" to eventually end both the Jedi and the Sith, upstaging Palpatine and taking over his mantle without the intention of passing on actual Sith teachings (which somewhat explains his plea to Obi-Wan to help him destroy the Sith). Perhaps he thought, dwelling in his own pride, that he would be the one to bring Balance to the Force, and that's why he shows so much contempt to Anakin as the Chosen One.

Nonetheless, I digress. I just think the character is extremely fascinating, and I am glad that like so many people on real life, he remains a mysterious and elusive figure. I have always looked at the EU - and now the NU - as outsiders' interpretations of the Saga, and thus that's how I feel about ROTS novelization's depiction of him. I like that as in AOTC, he displays fondness towards Obi-Wan , and I do think it makes sense for Dooku to be holding back against Anakin. Overall it is just a shame that he is offed so soon in ROTS.

I honestly think that Palpatine would have executed Count Dooku during Order 66, because (a) he knew too much; (b) thousands of star systems had pledged themselves to him, making him a dangerous ally; (c) his death was somewhat necessary for the narrative that he and the Jedi had been in cahoots the whole time; and (d) the Rule of Two demands it.

What ifs are always difficult to imagine though. I have often wondered what would have happened if Count Dooku's fleet had been able to escape Coruscant with the Chancellor captive, what that would have meant for the war. Suddenly the tables are turned: instead of the Confederacy's leader being killed and the Republic's escaping, it's the other way around.

While watching the movies, the idea that I got was always that the arrangement was the following: both Sith Lords controlled each a faction and were using of the war to centralize power. No matter what faction won, in the end there would be an Empire. I know some of the EU contradicts this notion, but it's my interpretation.

 

Great post. One of the best I've seen on here. I think honestly it'd be neat if he went turncoat and ratted out Sidious to the Jedi XD

I don't think Sidious really cares about the rule of two, inquistors are borderline sith, the point of the rule of two is to keep the pool of darkside energy pure. The more users, the more it's divided and the more team killers are out there. It's also part of why I feel the sith are stronger, two people sharring the entire dark side over 10,000 Jedi sharing the light. (Although I don't think the light side gets divided like the dark side was said too, and I think that's only EU maybe.)

Still I agree Dooku was vague, and his regret of killing Obi-Wan in the novel makes his words in AOTC look undeniably genuine.

However I think how he is in the movies is MUCH different then in TCW where he seamed more cruel and brash (clone wars version )then regal and civilized (movies)

 

You are too kind!

Well, if you think about it, he kind of does it by telling Obi-Wan the truth in Geonosis. I do believe that was indicative of betrayal, and Christopher Lee's expression just oozes disappointment when Obi-Wan refuses. I get the impression that he does feel a connection to Obi-Wan, and that he genuinely wished they could be both on the same side.

That's a very interesting perspective. Amidst all their greed, the Sith try to keep their knowledge of the Dark Side just to themselves, while the Jedi are generous with their teachings.

Wholeheartedly agree. This is something that is repeated with many TCW characters, all of whom feel very different from their movie counterparts - it's one of the show's greatest flaws, in my opinion. I think there was an attempt to turn the Clone Wars conflict into a more Manichean war in the style of the Rebellion vs the Empire. Instead of both sides offering compelling arguments and having their own perspective on the galaxy's status quo, we have the evil, moustache-twirling Separatists invading and exploiting worlds left and right and the valorous Republic rising to the occasion to defend them. Count Dooku's characterization unfortunately fell victim to this mentality, which is a pity, really. Considering how blatantly evil he is in TCW, it is a wonder he got 10,000 systems to join him in the first place.

 

Yeah. That makes sense but doesn't sit right with me for some reason, I kinda like the Empire being Palpatine's idea only and Maul just an instrument to kill Jedi and Dooku believing the Confederacy cause. Oh well.

 

Yep. Gotta agree with all of that. Still, dispite the flaws TCW was good. But we got novel
movie
tcw
CW
EU
Dookus.

The only one that feels out of place is the CGI 3D clone wars Dooku. Same with Grievous. One does not simply have Jar jar land ANY blows on Grievous. You wanna have him for comedy relief? Fine, but the general,senator and the clone wars was were Jar Jar was REALLY bad. not TPM.

Makes you wonder if Anakin could Beat Dooku if it was a fair 1v1. No obi wan battle wearing him out, and no Dooku holding back.

 

Dooku was already working for the Sith, before the Naboo invasion and before Maul became stumpy. Dooku to the Sith was what Ventress was to the Sith and Dooku had believed that Anakin would serve the same purpose. But Palpatine already decided that he would remove Dooku because he didn't need him when the war was over. He just needed him for the roles that he served. As to the Rule of Two, Palpatine believed in it, since there are only two Sith ever. He allowed Ventress until he felt that she was going to be a threat and then ordered Dooku to remove her. He allowed the Inquisitors so long as they do not become a threat. He was allowing Vader to turn Luke, so long as there was no threat. But he was also interested in pitting them against each other, when the time came.

 

Where do you get Dooku was pre naboo invasion? It's been established that he went dark when his apprentice Qui-Gon died.

There's nothing that said he woulda killed Dooku, only that he'd have Anakin kill and replace him. If Anakin died I cant see him killing Dooku, and I see inquistitors as spitting in the face of the rule of two as it goes against it's very meaning fo keeping the # of force users in the dark side at only two.

 

It was established in "The Lost One". Sifo-Dyas was killed by Dooku, when he was still a Jedi. The time period is before the Naboo invasion. Dooku turned before Qui-gon's death. He just used that as an excuse for his leaving the Jedi Order.

 

That's right. My mind must've blocked that out because the clone wars version is...well weird. It's hard to imagine Dooku and Maul side by side.

 

This is truly what we should've got...Tyranus and Maul side by side, what a scene to behold! I would have also liked to maybe see Dooku as a fallen Jedi starting a new Jedi Order with Qui Gonn Jinn and Sifo Dyas. Imagine as a fan as they break apart the Jedi order, seen as the enemy, only to save Anikan and Obi Wan from Darth Maul. I believe it would give us such intrigue and mystery right up till Anakin kills Dooku, who really does capture Palpatine. Wdle would have been rooting for Dooku and Dyas after the events unfolded like they did. Obi Wan would have thought how Dooku was right and he should have joined him.

 

We got that for a moment or two in the Darth Maul: Son of Dathomir comic, but it didn't last long.

Alternative way of looking at it - Labyrinth of Evil had Dooku turn after Qui-Gon's death, The Lost One retconned this - extending Dooku's service to the Sith into the TPM period.

 

Sids was planning to replace Dooku with Anakin, there never was going to be 3 Sith, at least not for very long. Sids ultimate plan was always going to be throwing Dooku under the bus, everybody is disposable to Sids/Palps. Later in ROTJ he wanted to replace Vader with Luke, Sids is always looking for the next upgrade .

 

And in the newcanon comics (Vader series) he gets to meet a bunch of "possible next upgrades" shortly after ANH. He is not happy.

 

Iron_lord can you elaborate? I haven't read that one.

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Anakin_Skywalker

Begin about 3/4 of the way down the page, immediately after ANH, with "Cymoon 1".

 

Thanks.

 

I always wonder how could Palpatine convince Dooku of that. There was no way Dooku could be made into a hero, regardless of Griveous's role as scapegoat.

 

Dooku seemed to believe he personally still had a reputation for integrity and idealism amongst the citizens of the Republic, in the novel:


"It will be," he said slowly, meditatively, as though he spoke only to himself, "an embarrassment to be captured by him."
The voice that answered him was so familiar that sometimes his very thoughts spoke in it, instead of in his own. "An embarrassment you can survive, Lord Tyranus. After all, he is the greatest Jedi alive, is he not? And have we not ensured that all the galaxy shares this opinion?"
"Quite so, my Master. Quite so." Again, Dooku sighed. Today he felt every hour of his eighty-three years. "It is... fatiguing, to play the villain for so long, Master. I find myself looking forward to an honorable captivity."
A captivity that would allow him to sit out the rest of the war in comfort; a captivity that would allow him to forswear his former allegiances—when he would conveniently appear to finally discover the true extent of the Separatists' crimes against civilization—and bind himself to the new government with his reputation for integrity and idealism fully intact.
The new government...
This had been their star of destiny for lo, these many years.
A government clean, pure, direct: none of the messy scramble for the favor of ignorant rabble and subhuman creatures that made up the Republic he so despised. The government he would serve would be Authority personified.
Human authority.
It was no accident that the primary powers of the Confederacy of Independent Systems were Neimoidian, Skakoan, Quarren and Aqualish, Muun and Gossam, Sy Myrthian and Koorivar and Geonosian. At war's end the aliens would be crushed, stripped of all they possessed, and their systems and their wealth would be given into the hands of the only beings who could be trusted with them.
Human beings.
Dooku would serve an Empire of Man.
And he would serve it as only he could. As he was born to. He would smash the Jedi Order to create it anew: not shackled by the corrupt, narcissistic, shabby little beings who called themselves politicians, but free to bring true authority and true peace to a galaxy that so badly needed both.
An Order that would not negotiate. Would not mediate. An Order that would enforce.
The survivors of the Jedi Order would become the Sith Army.
The Fist of the Empire.
And that Fist would become a power beyond any Jedi's darkest dreams. The Jedi were not the only users of the Force in the galaxy; from Hapes to Haruun Kal, from Kiffu to Dathomir, powerful Force-capable humans and near-humans had long refused to surrender their children to lifelong bound servitude in the Jedi Order. They would not so refuse the Sith Army.
They would not have the choice.

 

Iron_lord I find that passage interesting but it's ALWAYS bugged me how much darker he was in he novel (and TCW)...vs the movie, where he was polite and kind. Even there he is tired of playing the villain, but then he's a racist vs non humans...I never take Dooku as someone who's good, but also narrow minded enough to be racist to such a extreme. To me Dooku is and should be a good man with dark deeds who does what HE thinks is right, even if it seams bad to those who are blind to the truth. I truly believe his "destroy the sith" line to Kenobi in AOTC. That's just my take on him though.

 

The grin on his face during the duel with Obi-Wan in AOTC did seem like the grin of a man embracing his own bloodlust. Appropriate for the man who's played Dracula so many times.