Lit Palpatine's view of Vader in the new canon

I don't get that implication from the comic. He's just saying the Banite Sith had been laying the groundwork to take over the galaxy, which Sheev achieved.


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...and now there is no need for the rule of 2.

 

Wasn't Plagueis going to abolish it too? It's been a long time since I read Plagueis so I'm fuzzy on the details but I recall something about him wanting Palps and himself to be the last ones.

 

Tarkin makes Sidious' motivations pretty clear.

He doesn't just want immortality, he essentially wants to become God. That supports Ewan Tibbetts notion that Sidious viewed himself as the pinnacle and the endpoint of the rule of two.

I have a sort of tenuous theory that Vader's defeat on Mustafar might have changed Sidious' view of the Sith. Before Mustafar there was a case to be made that the rule of two was working exactly as planned. The Sith were getting stronger and the transfer of power from Sidious to Vader would have continue that trend. When Vader gets chopped up by Kenobi that trend literally goes down in flames. At that point Sidious decides to ditch the rule of two entirely and make a play for ultimate power. In Darth Vader #6 he tells Vader "Do not underestimate how much you disappointed me on Mustafar. I save you -- but you showed me how far off the mark you fell..."

Before Mustafar Sidious actually believed he could find and train the next master of the Sith. That would explain why he actually took the time to mentor Anakin. If Sidious had always wanted to become God, he may have tried to get Anakin killed rather than trying to mentor him. It would make sense to snuff out the threat early instead of leading it toward the dark side and potentially making it more powerful.

After Mustafar Sidious seems to give up on finding and training any *truly* powerful force users. The Inquisitors and Cylo's group are designed to weed out any threats to Sidious rather than produce a true threat to him. Vader effectively gets demoted from Sidious' heir to another one of his lackey's like Maul or Dooku (though Vader doesn't realize it).

 

The Shattered Empire comic shows that Palpatine had plans in place for after his death. That kind of puts a spanner in the theory machine.

 

Though the plans were pretty much "if anyone dares to kill me in the galaxy, burn it all!".

 

Of course there is. The Rule of Two is not just about establishing a clean line of succession and preserving the Sith Order as an institution (that'd be rather too selfless), it's also -- from the Master's perspective -- about holding their own feet to the fire so as to avoid complacency and stagnation. They teach the most powerful person they can find everything they know so they, in turn, are forced to grow even more powerful to stay on top. It's a form of self examination.

Hell, that's ultimately the only real way that the Sith "work together".

No Sith Lord wants to be surpassed, but each of them is willing to risk it in pursuit of their own glory.

And, given Palpatine's interest in Luke, it doesn't really seem as though he's ditching anything.

 

I need to re-read Shattered Empire, but I don't recall anything definitive about the Emperor. Lots of people are either in denial about his death or trying to use his image for their purposes. I think anything about him in that series should be met with a healthy amount of skepticism.

 

Palpatine could still have been planning to end the rule of two. I suppose it's not as obvious as I made it out to be.

 

What was the end goal in ROTJ, I wonder. Vader also wanted Luke to turn to the dark side and probably didn't want be killed by Luke immediately after he turned, otherwise Vader wouldn't have gone along with it. So if things had gone correctly, would Palpatine have had two apprentices?


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Shattered Empire is defiantly worth re-reading. It's short and packed with lore.

 

The ol' RotJ novel has Vader thinking that he and Palpatine will work together on Luke, but this was before we had knowledge about how the Sith operated.

I guess if we were to translate that into NU terms would result in Luke occupying the same sort of place as an Inquisitor as a non-Sith darksider. At least to start. It's doable.

My take on Palpatine's perspective is that such was never on the cards. There were two options:

1) Luke defeats Vader and then kills him as bidden. Woohoo, fresh new powerhouse.

2) Vader defeats Luke and then kills him as bidden. Woohoo, there's life in the old dog, yet!

I suspect that in the current framework (especially factoring in RotS/Anakin/Dooku) Vader knows what's up, too, which is a large part of why he's so resigned and despondent.

 

But Palpatine literally calls Luke his apprentice in ROTJ.

ESB dialogue:

Palpatine: We have a new enemy. The young Rebel who destroyed the Death Star. I have no doubt this boy is the offspring of Anakin Skywalker.
Vader: How is that possible?
Palpatine: Search your feelings, Lord Vader. You will know it to be true. He could destroy us.
Vader: He's just a boy. Obi-Wan can no longer help him.
Palpatine: The Force is strong with him. The son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi.
Vader: If he could be turned, he would become a powerful ally.
Palpatine: Yes. He would be a great asset. Can it be done?
Vader: He will join us or die, master.

So taking this at face value, Palpatine contacts Vader basically telling him to kill Luke. Vader then convinces him to turn Luke to the dark side and take him as an ally. So it was Vader's idea in the first place. I don't think Vader would have suggested that if he thought that he'd have to be dead for it to occur. I don't know how to reconcile this.

 

And almost immediately pits him against his other apprentice.

A bit of overlap can be forgiven.

I mean, at this point Palpatine probably could have been paying lip service to the idea of "three Sith" when speaking to Vader about the logistics of it all . . . but, if so, it was only ever going to be lip service.

They're different situations, I think.

TESB was Vader's shot at having control of the "Turn Skywalker" project. He's not suggesting the RotJ scenario. He sells it as "Yeah I'll break him to the dark side for you" and Palpatine plays along.

And then he flubs it.

When RotJ rolls around, Palps is directly overseeing everything, openly questioning Vader's motives and insisting it be a combined effort. "He has grown strong. Only together can we turn him to the dark side of the Force" and all that jazz. Which wasn't at all what Vader originally had in mind.

 

I thought Tarkin already established that Palpatine wanted to eternally rule as god with Vader at his side. He may have lost faith in Vader temporarily after ANH but that faith is restored after the events of Darth Vader. Whatever disappointment he felt about Vader right after Mustafar didn't seem to matter in the Tarkin novel. In TESB Palpatine's grand plan seems to continue as Palpatine wants Vader to kill Luke before changing his mind about it.

 

I thought the "he and his apprentice might reign together eternally" stuff was from Dark Lord?

Luceno novels are blending together in my mind.

But, no, I don't think that Palpatine views Vader as some hopeless lost cause. Certainly not for any extended length of time. I suspect that his faith was beginning to waver again come RotJ, which is one of the reasons he forced the Luke confrontation and would have insisted that Vader destroy him had he proven victorious.

 

The eternal ruling stuff was from Tarkin I believe. Hopefully we'll find out more about this in Empire's End.

Palpatine changes his opinion a lot in the new canon, that's for sure... Either that or his statements of disappointment are in itself manipulation to motivate Vader. However, I'm pretty sure he could feel the light in Vader during RotJ and wasn't happy about it. Sith Apprentices aren't supposed to struggle with a conscience.

 

I think Palpatine treats Vader as a slave.

A favored slave but a slave nevertheless.

And Vader recognizes that.

 

And thus his final act is "I'M A PERSON AND MY NAME IS ANAKIN!"

Almost literally in the RotJ radio drama, actually . . .

Vader, What are you doing? Put me down!

Yes, I'll put you down! Down the reactor core shaft! Down to your death!!

Vader, you can't do this!! I am your master!

Darth Vader's master! But not Anakin Skywalker's!

 

Frankly I would never take anything Palpy says at face value... he'll always remain a politician...
And he's always been a pragmatist as well.

Regarding Vader I do believe that he fascinates the Sith Master, he is the ultimate challenge to him: awesome potential, still never totally fulfilled, but the promise/ and the danger of the Prophecy is always there. Palpy achieved everything else he had wanted (right this godhood thing has some potential), but Vader remains an enigma.

Otherwise I think Vader's view of Palpy still stands from ROTJ novellization: the Emperor is a dark genius he has to learn from him as much as he can, but sooner or later he must be killed.

 

Honestly, I'd prefer this to the "NOOOOOO!"