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ST Paradigm shift? Using lightsabers to fight leads to the dark side of the Force?

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Lt. Hija, Mar 11, 2016.

  1. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    There are two major things I couldn't make head or tail of in the past months
    1. When Rey picks up the lightsaber in her fight with Kylo we hear the "Lars Homestead Burning" music theme from ANH which must have been a deliberate choice. This was a scene where undoubtedly Luke was filled with anger and hate when he watched the burning bodies of his aunt and uncle.
    2. In the latest Rebels Episode "The Shroud of Darkness" Yoda tells Ezra that the Jedi were consumed by the dark side because they decided to fight.
    Now, such things probably don't happen accidentally in the nuCanon, regarding # 2 there appears to be a large consensus that the moment the Jedi decided to fight in the Clone Wars they also started to move down the dark path.

    Are we looking at a paradigm shift? Will we see further in Episodes VIII and beyond that fighting itself is a bad thing that ultimately leads to the dark side of the Force?
     
  2. CEB

    CEB Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 3, 2014
    I don't think it literally refers to "fighting", so much as a strategic choice to fight.
     
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  3. Dagobah Dragonsnake

    Dagobah Dragonsnake Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 7, 2016
    I am not particularly thrilled by the Yoda - Ezra meeting. I found it confusing. Though I did "get it", I thought it was too broad brush, simplistic. It is a cartoon series so I am not sure where this can actually go. The series is crammed with fighting.

    Restraint been inferred before throughout the saga, but usually comes out as a dead end. Somehow I feel Yoda is trying to say the Jedi screwed up, by working as a part of a military, since the end result was disastrous.

    All through the saga we are told that anger leads to the Dark Side, and Jedi need to control their emotions. Anger and senseless killing that arises from it grease one's path to Darkness. Now fighting in a war is bad, according to Yoda. I cannot see how we can have Jedi and Star Wars without actual fighting. It may be a call to insure Jedi are peacekeepers, and only participate with actions that directly confront the Dark Side, in a focused and purposeful way.
     
  4. Brobi-Wan

    Brobi-Wan Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Feb 26, 2016
    I think what Broda meant was that by getting sucked into the Clone Wars, the Jedi were involved in this massive conflict that caused the dark side to grow. All that violence and killing was fueling the dark side.
     
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  5. JabbatheHumanBeing

    JabbatheHumanBeing Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 14, 2015
    I remember hearing the force theme when Rey picks up the lightsaber in the Kylo fight.
     
  6. IoJovi

    IoJovi Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Feb 8, 2016

    You are on the right track. I have read the novelization and after Kylo Ren offers to teach Rey, she is channeling the Darkside of the Force. She hears Snoke in her head urge her to kill him. At the last second, she refrains and lets him live, but not before she slashes his face and his collarbone.

    In the Rey/Kylo Ren thread, we have discussed a possible Force bond being forged between the two, which may have happened during the interrogation. Not sure if you are familiar with the EU or The Clone Wars (which is canon), but it is something generally formed between master and student, although this isn't always the case. It allows one to draw on emotions and skills of the other, as well as being able to know where they are at even if they're far away.

    If there is indeed a force bond, this would explain why Rey would be able to so easily channel the darkside at this moment, since he is already so knee deep in it. It would also explain why she was able to beat him so viciously with no former training.

    I don't think lightsaber use has anything to do with the Darkside in general - the color they become though after they are built using kyber crystals is determined by the individual user. Red is associated with the Darkside, and blue/green are associated with the Lightside.
     
  7. Trebor Sabreon

    Trebor Sabreon Former Manager star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 15, 2010
    We've always known that Yoda came in his last years to teach that the dark side is "quick to join you in a fight" and that "a Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense; never for attack." I think that what Yoda conveys to Ezra ("How Jedi choose to win, the question is.") is essentially the same message.

    What the PT/TCW (particularly the final "Yoda arc" from the TCW Season 6 "Lost Missions") retroactively showed us was the 'how' and 'why' of Yoda arriving at (or, at least remembering) this understanding. I think "Shroud of Darkness" doubles-down on this lesson, as well. When Ezra says that because Master Yoda is powerful, he "must know a way to destroy Vader and his Inquisitors," Yoda's reply is telling: "Padawan, thousands of Jedi once there were. Then came war. In our arrogance, join the conflict swiftly we did. Fear, anger, hate. Consumed by the dark side the Jedi were."

    To me, it's all one message. Through the devastation of the Clone War, the fall of the Jedi Order and the rise of the Empire, Yoda has come to view the ideal Jedi as one not meant to "fight" ("Spend[ing] his days running hither and yon, wielding his lightsaber with deadly force as if on a crusade."). But rather, to seek knowledge and protect themselves and others. ("Keepers of the peace, not soldiers." -- An ideal the Jedi failed spectacularly to uphold).


    What I'm interested in knowing is why, upon Ezra's rejection of Yoda's wisdom ("We already chose. We're going to fight!"), Yoda opts to send Bridger to Malachor (and into the waiting arms you know who)? I suppose Yoda has some harsh lessons in mind for the young, would-be Jedi.


    Hija has it right. When Rey calls the saber and ignites her weapon, the music is taken from the burning homestead scene (as Luke looks upon the remains of his aunt and uncle). I believe the two versions are even in the same key, if I remember correctly.

    That said, the number in question is really a more sorrowful take on (part of) the Force theme (along with some additional elements, of course -- the heavy, leaden horn cue springs immediately to mind), so it's certainly no stretch to recall it as such.
     
  8. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Yoda realizes that he and Kanan cannot stop Ezra from this simply by telling him no. Ezra needs to see it for himself. He needs to see a Sith Lord, a former one, who has gone the path of the dark side and who has fallen on hard times. He needs to see for himself that the dark side will lead to ruin.
     
  9. BloodStripe

    BloodStripe Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 16, 1999
    Yes, and it's also tied implicitly to the next scene, in which Luke embraces his destiny and tells Ben he wants to become a Jedi. Amid great sorrow and turmoil, the hero makes a fateful choice. That, to me, seemed to be what the music cue symbolized, more than emphasizing any anger Rey might be feeling in the moment.
     
  10. Trebor Sabreon

    Trebor Sabreon Former Manager star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 15, 2010
    Yep, I think I'd generally agree with that interpretation.

    edit: Though, of course the literal next scene of the film is Leia's interrogation aboard the Death Star. But I take your meaning.


    I'm suddenly transported to 2005, as the ghost of Mace Windu echoes:

    "It's very dangerous, putting them together. I don't think the boy can handle it."
     
  11. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    Made a compilation of the relevant movie quotes (with annotations), also to see for myself how much water the new "theory" or "paradigm shift" holds.


    BEN
    You can't win. But there are
    alternatives to fighting.

    YODA

    Ahhh! A great warrior.
    Wars not make one great.

    YODA
    Run! Yes. A Jedi's strength
    flows from the Force. But beware
    of the dark side. Anger... fear...
    aggression. The dark side of
    the Force are they.
    Easily they flow, quick to join
    you in a fight. If once you
    start down the dark path, forever
    will it dominate your destiny,
    consume you it will, as it did
    Obi-Wan's apprentice.

    YODA
    You will know. When you are calm,
    at peace. Passive. A Jedi uses
    the Force for knowledge and
    defense, never for attack.

    Very important hint: Never for attack. The first practical lesson for a padawan is to use a lightsaber for defense (i.e. to deflect blaster beams). Kenobi’s used his lightsaber in the Mos Eisley Cantina for defense. One could also argue that a Jedi will not seek a fight but rather avoid it.

    YODA
    Your weapons... you will not
    need them.

    Second (?) practical lesson. To solve a conflict unarmed.

    YODA
    Stopped they must be. On this
    all depends. Only a fully trained
    Jedi Knight with the Force as his
    ally will conquer Vader and his
    Emperor. If you end your training
    now, if you choose the quick and
    easy path, as Vader did, you will
    become an agent of evil.

    “Conquer” doesn’t imply to fight and kill.

    YODA (shakes his head)
    Ohhh. Not yet. One thing remains: Vader. You must confront Vader. Then,
    only then, a Jedi will you be. And confront him you will.

    “Confront” doesn’t imply to fight and kill.

    BEN
    You cannot escape your destiny.
    You must face Darth Vader again!

    LUKE
    I can't kill my own father.

    BEN
    Then the Emperor has already won. You were our only hope.

    This one is a bit problematic. Kenobi doesn’t say that Luke has to kill his father (that’s what Luke assumes), yet doesn’t provide clarification!

    EMPEROR
    You want this, don't you? The hate is swelling in you now. Take your
    Jedi weapon. Use it. I am unarmed. Strike me down with it. Give in to
    your anger. With each passing moment, you make yourself more my
    servant.

    LUKE

    I will not fight you, father.

    VADER

    You underestimate the power of the dark side. If you will not fight,
    then you will meet
    your destiny.

    The Emperor and Vader are trying to manipulate Luke to use his lightsaber to fight.

    EMPEROR
    Good! Your hate has made you powerful. Now, fulfill your destiny and
    take your father's
    place at my side!

    The Emperor wants Luke to kill his father with his lightsaber.

    MACE WINDU
    But if they do, you must realise
    there aren't enough Jedi to
    protect the Republic. We are
    keepers of the peace, not soldiers.

    Indeed, what we saw early on in TPM suggested they mediate but don’t fight (unless to defend themselves)

    YODA
    Impossible to see ... The Dark Side
    clouds everything. But this I am
    sure of -
    (opens his eyes)
    Do their duty the Jedi will.

    And this implied fighting with a lightsaber.

    I'd say it turns out appearances are deceiving, it's not a paradigm shift but something that has been there in rather plain sight.

    The actual dialogue allows the conclusion that using a lightsaber for anything else but defense somewhat inevitably leads to the dark side.
     
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  12. Master_Lok

    Master_Lok Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 18, 2012
    Interesting theories and a darn good thread. For me, it's the being behind the lightsaber and the intent in which they are fighting which drives what side of the force they ultimately align themselves with.

    Then again, TFA pretty much threw everything we knew about Force usage / training out of the window, so who knows?
     
  13. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    That was my view on the issue, too, until today. Yoda's "Never for attack" is pretty clear and straightforward (please, no "only Sith deal in absolutes"), regardless of good intentions (which anyway are never a guarantee for a truly good outcome).

    I'm warming up to the idea that the ST could turn out to be an "eye opener" that retroactively benefits OT and PT by providing a clearer understanding. Now it just depends whether 1 (TFA) + 1 (Rebels) adds up to a solid "2" in VIII and IX.
     
  14. Dra---

    Dra--- Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 30, 2012
    Yes, since TCW and Yoda's meeting with the priestesses, it's been clear that the Jedi became consumed in the darkside by their constant fighting in TCW.

    But the take away here isn't that Jedi shouldn't or can't fight. They shouldn't fight in wars.

    Qui-Gon said as much in TPM: Jedi aren't supposed to be soldiers. They are peacekeepers who only use violence (the darkside) for defense or when absolutely necessary.

    The reason this idea may confuse some people is because they don't yet understand that the Jedi are not purely lightside warriors, but warriors who must balance light and dark. And balance for Jedi means something like 80% light and 20% dark. What darkness is the 20%? You know, like when Jedi cut limbs off and kill people -- those are not lightside acts.

    So what Yoda means is that Jedi need to be more strategic. There are more ways of defeating your enemies than fighting in an endless war.
     
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  15. Knights of Ben

    Knights of Ben Jedi Padawan star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 30, 2016
    Yeah just to clarify, and in case anyone wants to jump straight to the relevant passage of music in order to compare, it's 1.30 - 1.50 seconds on Burning Homestead. This begins at pretty much the moment Rey grabs the sabre, and ends at the moment that she rushes in to attack Kylo.
     
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  16. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    Dra--- wrote

    But the take away here isn't that Jedi shouldn't or can't fight. They shouldn't fight in wars.

    Which nevertheless raises one critical question, IMHO: What about Luke?

    Prior to his training on Dagobah, he spent three years fighting for the Alliance in the civil war.

    What took Obi-Wan and Yoda so long to start his training on Dagobah? Do we have to assume that he already got so tainted by the dark side that he needed a "spiritual" bath on Dagobah to be ready for his confrontation with Vader?
     
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  17. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    The movie version is only "The dark side clouds everything. Impossible to see the future is." ,without the rest.
     
  18. Blastaar

    Blastaar Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 25, 2015
    force sabers already fulfill that roll.
     
  19. Chewies_bandolier

    Chewies_bandolier Force Ghost star 4

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    May 5, 2002
    Looking forward to the film where the antagonist and protagonist spend the entire duel trying their hardest NOT to fight each other with a lightsabre ... you know .. like at the end of ROTJ.
     
  20. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002
    Not just that...



    It was decided that learning the ways of the Force had to be a constant struggle for Luke and the he would always have to prove himself. In regard to the Dark Side of the Force, the story meeting transcripts suggest that although can't see it, it should be the real villain of the story. In his training Luke discovers the roots of the evil Force. The danger, the jeopardy is that Luke will become Vader, will be taken over. He has to fight the bad side and learn to work with the good side. Lucas felt that at one point during the training, Ben should explain to Luke that he should use his powers with moderation. If he uses too much of the Force, it will start to use him. For example, to lift objects Luke has to use the bad side of the Force, so if he overuses this power, the dark side will start taking him over as it did with Vader. When Luke fights, he has to use the dark side, but he is also using the good side for protection. In this episode Luke should embody the classic tale of the ugly duckling who becomes a hero, and by the end of the film Luke should have become Ben. - Annotated Screenplays
     
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  21. IG Lancer

    IG Lancer Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 8, 2015
    But that version of how the Force works was discarded ages ago. Nothing in the movies suggests that an excessive use of the Force is dangerous, or that telekinesis is a Dark Side power.
     
  22. Pro Scoundrel

    Pro Scoundrel New Films Expert At Modding Casual star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Thank the Maker!
     
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  23. Sjaddix

    Sjaddix Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 17, 2011
    Unlikely, I don't think Disney is cutting out Lightsabers for Jedi.
     
  24. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002
    Except for the quote: "A Jedi uses
    the Force for knowledge and
    defense, never for attack."

    and prior to that.....A Jedi's strength
    flows from the Force. But beware
    of the dark side. Anger... fear...
    aggression. The dark side of
    the Force are they.
    Easily they flow, quick to join
    you in a fight.

    Not to mention:

    PADMÉ scowls at him. PADMÉ jabs at the fruit - ANAKIN
    subtly moves his hand and it lifts up from the plate and
    hovers in front of her.

    PADMÉ: That! Now stop it!

    PADMÉ laughs. ANAKIN laughs. She reaches out for the fruit
    - it loops.

    PADMÉ: Anakin!!

    ANAKIN moves his fingers. The fruit flies into his hand.

    ANAKIN: If Master Obi-Wan caught me doing this, he'd be
    very grumpy.
     
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  25. Darth Pig

    Darth Pig Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Feb 21, 2016
    I always thought it was accepted that Luke went back to tatooine to red Obi-Wans journals and developed hi force abilities i.e. how he could get the saber on Hoth. It shows his force skills developing i.e. he had training. And there is no reason to believe that Ben did not appear to him several dozen times between ANH and ESB. So not sure he spent 3 years fighting as some of it was away from the Rebellion.