ST Paradigm shift? Using lightsabers to fight leads to the dark side of the Force?

Except it's not until ESB that Ben tells Luke to go to Dagobah, and Luke seems rather surprised to see him.

 

This whole avoiding "the fight" to me is why Luke finally disappeared from the public eye. He was training his padawan in what he thought was right, and -- for whatever reason, Ben turns to the dark side and betrays Luke. The dark side not only destroyed his academy, but he went on to anchor the First Order, and thus making war prevalent once again. Just when Luke thought he had rid the galaxy of the Sith and the darkside, he causes Ben to rise as Kylo Ren.

I think in his solitude he shares this philosophical discussion with Yoda's force ghost. "Wars not make one great" and "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack". And now Rey comes to him with a lightsaber extended -- the very tool that can easily cause a Jedi to fall to the darkside.

But even more so, the Balance in the Force prophecy starts to become even more interesting. Anakin didn't bring balance to the Force, he was the epitome of what happens when you don't bring balance. He's the example for why a Jedi MUST balance the light side and the dark side. So it's not one person who will bring balance... but rather each Jedi must find that balance.

 

It's called "Burning Homestead" it's a modification of the Force Theme.

 

Except that:

-We're never told or shown that he did.
-Luke actually seems surprised to see Obi Wan when he appeared on Hoth.
-It wasn't until then, 2-3 years later, that Obi Wan FINALLY told Luke about Yoda and where Luke had to go in order to find him.

So no, it's not clear at all that Obi Wan appeared before Luke during that time.

 

Good answer.

 

Using the Force 2 impress a hottie. Dark Side power confirmed.

 

Actually, the Luke book Heir to the Jedi has Luke complaining that he hasn't heard from Ben since the Death Star, and he's even begun wondering if it was all in his head.

So yeah, he tries to pick up as much "training" as he can by the time of ESB, but all we see him do is grab his saber from the snow.

Why does Ben wait so long to send Luke to Yoda? Who knows? Yoda doesn't even seem like he wants to train him when he shows up -- Lucas's story shouldn't really be probed to this depth. It can't make perfect sense because he didn't plan it out from the beginning.

We could, however, make up any number of suitable fanwank reasons why Luke had to wait a couple of years before meeting Yoda. Maybe Yoda wanted to watch Luke once he began using the Force to see what he'd be like? Maybe Yoda/Ben had a vision of when the right time would be to train Luke? I don't think it really matters as long as you realize that we're lucky this story fits as well together as it does considering it was largely made up as each film was produced.

Finally, it is absolutely canon that using the Force aggressively is part of the darkside. Not only is this suggested multiple times in the movies, explained fairly clearly in TCW, but Lucas himself has explained it. Jedi are not pure lightside warriors, as some fans like to imagine. They balance the darkness -- violence -- with the light (peace and selflessness). I think people have trouble with this concept because they want to imagine that violence can be "good violence." No -- even when Jedi use it for good, it is not itself the good.

This is exactly what traps most Sith. The idea that power can be good because it can be used for good.

 

EXT. HOTH - SNOW DRIFT - DUSK

Luke lies face down in the snow, nearly unconscious. Slowly he looks up and
sees Ben Kenobi, barely visible through the blowing snow. It is hard to tell if
Kenobi is real or a hallucination.

BEN
Luke... Luke.

LUKE
(weakly)
Ben?

BEN
You will go to the Dagobah system.

LUKE
Dagobah system?

BEN
There you will learn from Yoda,
the Jedi Master who instructed me.

The image of Ben fades, revealing a lone Tauntaun rider approaching from the
windswept horizon.

Exactly. Ben was originally supposed to survive ANH, but Lucas killed him off because 1) Ben had nothing to do for the rest of the story, 2) Ben's sacrifice is significant to Luke's character motivation, and 3) it allowed Ben to help Luke in a way that was otherwise impossible.

Plus, this is a significant plot point for Luke, so Lucas would rather show it onscreen rather than simply refer to a offscreen reference. It also makes for a cool visual (Ben's ghost fading to Han's tauntaun.)

 

And tellingly, Ben doesn't appear as an actual Force Ghost in ANH. Instead, he's just a disembodied voice that speaks to Luke a few times. Which makes me wonder if Lucas had completely nailed down the concept of the Force Ghosts at that point, or if he came up with it later?

And yeah, it's pretty clear that Sir Alec wouldn't have had much to do once they flee the DS, the way that the film is structured. So giving him a "sacrificial death" while confronting his fallen former apprentice, was probably a better idea than "Obi Wan just kind of lounges around the Rebel Base for the rest of the film." Lucas then created the Yoda character to replace Obi Wan as Luke's Jedi teacher since he couldn't go with his initial plan (having Obi Wan alive in ESB to teach Luke himself).

Yeah, given how much "we're making it up as we go along" there appears to have been with the OT, it's all the more impressive that it turned out as well as it did overall at the end of the day.

 

"As I was writing the third draft of Star Wars, I realized that after they escape from the Death Star, there isn't anything for Ben to do, and I struggled with finding things for him to do and finally gave up. I figured I'd just write that part later on. When I came to the next draft, it became obvious that he was just standing around and that was not good, especially for a character of his importance. So it was really in the last draft, the one I wrote before I shot the movie, that I finally came to the decision that I had to do what I had to do. In a way, I knew I would have to do it from the beginning, but I went back and forth about it. The difficult part of that decision was that I had already hired Alec Guiness, and I had to tell him that his character was going to die halfway through the script. He didn't like it very much; he was upset about it until I convinced him that it was best for the movie, nothing personal. I knew that I would have to bring him back somehow if I made the other movies, and at the time of Star Wars, I didn't know how I was going to accomplish that. At that point, I had to make Star Wars work, and killing Ben was a logical decision." - George Lucas, Annotated Screenplays

"After I killed Ben in Star Wars, I had to figure out a way to replace him. I didn't want another human being, and that's when I decided to make him tiny and green and very odd and eight hundred years old and a whole different level of Jedi than Ben was. Then I created the backstory that he was Ben's teacher." - George Lucas, Annotated Screenplays

 

But that quote means that a Jedi doesn't use the Force to hurt people. A Jedi could use the Force to heal people all day long every day, and that wouldn't make him or her fall to the Dark Side.

That is just a warning against using anger to reach for the Dark Side for more power during a fight. It doesn't mean that say Obi-wan is tapping the Dark Side when he jumps around.

That is a frivolous and inapropiate use of the Force, but nothing suggests that Anakin is tapping into the Dark Side there.

 

Not only do we not see that happening in the films, but if the rumor of Palpatine creating Anakin is true, then creating life through the Force is a Dark Side power.

But it's a sign that Anakin is slowly moving towards misuse of the Force, which is a big no-no. Have you not noticed how little the Jedi use the Force? You talk of Jedi going around healing people.....how about Jedi going around freeing slaves? Not only does Qui-gon not go around freeing slaves, but he doesn't even use the Force to free Shmi, much less Anakin. And even then, he lets events play themselves out so that Anakin must earn his freedom.

Point being, the Jedi make every effort to not interfere in the normal flow of events, i.e. the "Will of the Force". When Qui-gon does try to use the Force to influence Watto's roll of the die, we get this quote:

"GL: I think it is obvious that he was wrong in Episode 1 and made a dangerous decision, but ultimately this decision may be correct. The Phantom Menace refers to the force of the dark side of the Universe. Anakin will be taken over by dark forces which in turn destroy the balance of the Galaxy, but the individual who kills the Emperor is Darth Vader - also Anakin. The tale meanders and both the prediction, and Qui-Gonn are correct - Anakin is the chosen one, and he did bring peace at last with his own sacrifice. Luke couldn't kill the Emperor himself, but he could make Anakin reflect on his life and kill the Emperor." - CUT magazine interview

The problem with using the Force is that you aren't supposed to use it for personal use.....it must serve a larger purpose.

"The key part of this scene ultimately is Anakin saying "I'm not going to let this happen again." We're cementing his determination to become the most powerful Jedi. The only way you can really do that is to go to the Dark Side because the Dark Side is more powerful. If you want the ultimate power you really have to go to the stronger side which is the Dark Side, but ultimately it would be your undoing. But it's that need for power and the need for power in order to satisfy your greed to keep things and to not let go of things and to allow the natural course of life to go on, which is that things come and go, and to be able to accept the changes that happen around you and not want to keep moments forever frozen in time." --George Lucas

"As evil begins to take over, it pushes the Force out of balance. It's easier to succumb to evil than it is to be a hero and try to work things through on the good side. Evil is inherently more powerful—it doesn't have the burden of worrying about other people. What Luke sees in Darth Vader at the end of ROTJ is something that I thought was worth understanding: the idea that Darth actually was a very good person. Except he's slightly more powerful than other people and when you get into that situation, your ability to do evil is much easier to come by." -George Lucas

Lucas demonstrates this in the two biggest decisions in his life: In ESB, rather than go with Darth Vader, he gives himself up to the Will of the Force, and is rewarded by being sucked into a tube. Luke didn't know this would happen, but when Vader tells Luke that Palpatine has forseen Luke destroying the Sith, Luke knows that it's not his destiny to die yet. Vader didn't realize he was given Luke the "out" that he needed in that situation.
The second decision was in ROTJ:

LUCAS: It will be about how young Anakin Skywalker became evil and then was redeemed by his son. But it's also about the transformation of how his son came to find the call and then ultimately realize what it was. Because Luke works intuitively through most of the original trilogy until he gets to the very end. And it's only in the last act--when he throws his sword down and says, "I'm not going to fight this"--that he makes a more conscious, rational decision. And he does it at the risk of his life because the Emperor is going to kill him. It's only that way that he is able to redeem his father. It's not as apparent in the earlier movies, but when you see the next trilogy, then you see the issue is, How do we get Darth Vader back? How do we get him back to that little boy that he was in the first movie, that good person who loved and was generous and kind? Who had a good heart. - Bill Moyers interview
Once again, Luke doesn't use the Force to "save the day"....he allows the Force to do what it had always intended, which was to have Anakin defeat Palpatine (and without the Force, I might add.)
"Balance of the Force" means allowing the Force to work with no interference. The Sith use the Force as a tool to serve their own ends, whereas the Jedi see themselves as a tool to serve the Force's will, and their Force use must be guided by the "Will of the Force".

 

He says that greed and ambition and attachment can make a Jedi desire more and more power and eventually give in to the Dark Side in order to get that power. But what if a Jedi manages to avoid attachment and just does as much as he or she can without using the power fo the Dark Side?

So being evil is easier and gets you more power... but that doesn't implies that using the Force a lot is inherently evil. It means that evil people gets to use the Force more, not that using the Force a lot makes you evil.

The temptation of power is there, but if you are able to resist it, you should do fine if you use the Force without greed, anger, fear and hate.

That quote shows how Lucas' view on the force changes.

As you say, Jedi in the current canon try to become tools guided by the "Will of the Force". However, in the previous quote, what was said is:

That note implies that "being used by the Force" is something bad.

What is more, that same note implies that there are force powers that are explicitly good and others that are explicitly bad:

So only some uses of the Force would have a negative effect. Others would be safe no matter how much you use them.

 

"A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense"

Yet we still see the Jedi use the Force as little as possible.

And the best way to resist it is to resist using it as much as possible, as the films show.

What do you mean by "current canon"? The Force had a will in ANH.

Yoda warns of this as well:

But beware of the dark side.
Anger... fear...aggression.
The dark side of the Force
are they. Easily they flow,
quick to join you in a fight.

Luke uses the Force choke in ROTJ. Was that good, or bad?

And yet, we don't see Jedi going around using the Force all the time......only for knowledge and defense.

 

IG Lancer wrote

But beware of the dark side.
Anger... fear...aggression.
The dark side of the Force
are they. Easily they flow,
quick to join you in a fight.

That is just a warning against using anger to reach for the Dark Side for more power during a fight. It doesn't mean that say Obi-wan is tapping the Dark Side when he jumps around.

I tend to agree. In ESB and ROJ it was not a fight itself that led to the dark side but the temptation to use the dark side "in a fight" to make the user more powerful, hence:

VADER Obi-Wan has taught you well. You
have controlled your fear... now
release your Anger.

VADER Only your hatred can destroy me.

EMPEROR You want this, don't you? The hate is swelling in you now. Take your
Jedi weapon. Use it. I am unarmed. Strike me down with it. Give in to
your anger. With each passing moment, you make yourself more my
servant.

EMPEROR Good. I can feel your anger. I am defenseless. Take your weapon!
Strike me down with all your hatred, and your journey towards the dark
side will be complete.

EMPEROR Good! Your hate has made you powerful. Now, fulfill your destiny and
take your father's
place at my side!

 

Luke looks at his father's mechanical hand, then to his own
mechanical, black-gloved hand, and realizes how much he is
becoming like his father. He makes the decision for which he
has spent a lifetime in preparation. Luke steps back and hurls
his lightsaber away.

LUKE
Never! I'll never turn to the dark side.
You've failed, Your Highness. I am a Jedi,
like my father before me.


Which is why Luke didn't fight Palpatine, who presented himself as an unarmed opponent...and therefore, Luke wouldn't have been using the Force to defend himself.

But Luke did end up fighting Vader with the Dark Side, which is how Luke overpowered him....and he saw how much it could overtake him. That he was able to stop himself and turn away from the Dark Side was an important lesson for Vader, who thought it was impossible to turn away from such power.

 

Lol. It's all fiction.

 

it is fiction. But why are these forums here if not to discuss this fiction in detail? I don't believe that using lightsabers is a path to the dark side, it's how you use them. A right of passage for jedi training is to build your own lightsaber. "here let me build this lazer sword so I can NOT use it"?

 

"Lightsabers don't turn people to the Dark Side. People turn people to the Dark Side." (Sorry, I couldn't help myself).

 

The theme everybody is getting at here is simply that power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Force sensitives are naturally powerful people and are thus susceptible to using that power for their own gains. This is the path to the dark side, and is even more true for people like Anakin and Luke. It doesn't even matter if your intentions are good. The Jedi Order tries to use it's collective power to crush what they see as a Sith controlled uprising against the Republic. Their actions and the war that follows feeds the dark side in a metaphorical sense while empowering Palpatine in a real political sense. As a master of the dark side he's able to use both to destroy the Jedi. He tries to do the same thing with Luke on a much smaller scale by getting him to think he has to fight. Instead Luke makes the decision the Jedi should have done: refuse. The seductive nature of the dark side is the intuitive idea that by exercising your innate power you can make things right. But this isn't the case. Regardless of intentions it just leads to more death and destruction, and you ultimately destroying yourself.

Using a lightsaber to exercise your power is most definitely a dark side act. Using it for self defense is not, but given Luke's extreme example it's also not the best choice. A true Jedi seems to be someone who can find a third way which is anything but easy or obvious. It requires a deep understanding of the root of the conflict, the force, etc.

To me this is why Luke is in exile and what will be explored in the next films. Rather than confront the growing evil in the galaxy himself with force, he is trying to find that third way. Yoda learned this as well which is why it's been repeated. So did obi-Won I think, simply by his act of letting Vader cut him down after briefly defending himself.

In brief, the ideal Jedi is one that only exercises their power (meaning the force and lightsaber) only for self defense, and even then trying to use it as little as possible. This is the perfect counter point to the ideal Sith, who is trying to gain more and use as much power as possible. They're utterly incompatible, and only one is sustainable and beneficial in the long run.

 

^Nice!