***Parallels Between World History and the Star Wars Saga***

"Sidious is like Napoleon"

While I agree with the other things you said, I really don't see much similarities between palps and the greatest French icon and one of the most noble generals in the world. But I guess it makes sense from a certain point of view.

 

i wasnt trying to discredit napoleon(the greatest military and political figure in french history).

good things can parallel evil things, but that does not make them evil.

 

[image=http://www.joekafka.com/transporter/naziwalker.jpg]

 

I'll never understand how Hitler and Palpatine are anything alike, other than both being Dictators.

Palpatine was elected, then slowly set himself into the position of what would become Emperor. Nobody knew what he intended to do when they voted him Supreme Chancellor.
Hitler, as I'm guessing has been stated, was appointed to his post. Not only that, but everyone knew damn well what he intended to do.
Even their characters are dffierent. Hitler was a big showmen, out in the public, galvanizing the people. Palpatine on the other hand, was dark and secretive. Apparently all people really ever saw of him was his statue on Courscant.

 

Also as I remember it, the StormTroopers, long before Hitler's rise, were the German troops who, closer to the end of WWI, would *storm* into Allied trenches.

 

Quite Operational, that is simply one of the most beautiful pictures I've ever seen. Regardless of what one thinks of the context, as in a Leni Riefenstahl film, it is aesthetically beautiful.

 

Yes, i concur - that is brilliant.

 

it's a Kozik

 

another

[image=http://www.joekafka.com/transporter/scout.jpg]

 

Great pics!

Palpatines rise to power is sort of a mixture between Hitler and Ceasar. Like Hitler, Palpatine caused events that let to his rise to power and blamed them on his enemies {Like the fire Hitler blamed on the Communists}, but like Ceasar, he had the support of the Senate up until they thought he would declare himself Emperor. Also like Ceasar, he was a popular "war hero" {The galaxy probably sees Palpatine as their great leader that lead them through the Clone Wars}

 

Here's my take, and by the way, whoever said that the Jedi Purge is similar to the Meji Resortation...brillant, I never saw that connection before. Anyway:

(1) I think the Trade Federation is almost indentical to the Hanseatic League, which was a powerful trade organization in Medevil Europe which actually had and army, and went to war with, and defeated Denmark.

(much as Trade Federation attacked Naboo)

(2)I believe the Republic/Empire more closely resembles Rome than Nazi Germany, for many reasons.

a) The terminology, namely, the Transition from Republic, to Empire.

b) The dissolution of the Senate, same as Augustus...I think he dissolved the Senate, though someone will probably correct me on that. Anyway, one of those emperor's dissolved the Senate.

c) Rome, like The Galactic Empire, is the only sizeable government in the region, ie there were no majour external threats to either...until the Barbarians, a few centuries down the road. Unlike hitler, whose main threat were the majour powers of europe and america.

d) The elite imperial guard...ie the Praetorian Guard.

e) The local Governors Tarkin refers to, more closely resemble roman-style governors.

f) Civil war...a commonplace in Rome.

g) Coruscant=Rome, center of population and culture.

h) I could go on and on,but you get the point.

3)Jedi...Obviously refer to Samurai. An elite warrior class. Lightsaber=katana, and so on.

4) Rebellion...I see many similarities in the american revolution.

And, a final note, whereas the setting of star wars is largely historical in basis, I believe the story of Star Wars can more closely be compared mythology. But, I dont feel like going into that right now.

 

Grav1image posted, "The dissolution of the Senate, same as Augustus...I think he dissolved the Senate, though someone will probably correct me on that. Anyway, one of those emperor's dissolved the Senate."

I'll be the one to correct you on that one point, but I'll be gentle, rather than sarcastic, although some on these boards are more inclined to sarcasm. Other than this one point, you had a great post!

Augustus didn't dissolve the Senate. In fact, the senate continued to exist until the very end of the Western Roman Empire although it was largely a rubber stamp to which the emperors paid lip service. Augustus (Octavian) was given his imperial powers by the Senate, though he pretended that he didn't want them and rejected them several times before "reluctantly" accepting his powers (perhaps shadows of Palpatine there?). His main title wasn't even "emperor" at first. Only much later did it become the primary title. At first "imperator" (emperor) was only one of several titles that conferred absolute power. The various titles and powers given to the "emperor" were all done in the guise of the republican form of government, to pretend as if the republic still existed and the Senate was still a vital, representative body. Essentially, the Senate formalised the practice of granting its powers to each successive emperor for the good of Rome while, in turn, each emperor, more or less, pretended to rule in allegiance to the Senate.

All Western Roman emperors, until the end, were formally accepted by the Senate, although in practice the military typically selected them beforehand. Emperors feigned, to a greater or lesser degree, rule in the name of the Senate and people of Rome, although they were de facto absolute rulers, backed by the military, in a sham republic.

Edit: symbols

 

Actually, that sounds a bit like what Palpatine is doing right now, post-AotC and pre-disbanding of the Senate in ANH. He still has the Senate to pay lip service to, but for all intents and purposes, he is the ruler, with the support of the millitary.

 

My parallels to battles in SW

Episode 1 Gungun/Droid battle - U.S revolution Battles(patirot days) Two armys lining up almost pre-detirmind and going at each other in lines.

Episode 2 clone wars - WW2 middle eastern battles/russians in afganerstan(sp?) lucas stated that the gunships were taken off the russian hind helecopter.

Death Star - battle of britan/ww2 dog fights. All you have to do is watch the epi2 dvd doco and see the comparrison shots GL used.

Hoth - as said before dunkirk. The trenches remind me of ww1 as well.

Endor forest - veitnam. I remember reading that GL wanted to resemble ewoks defeating the empire like the VC defeating the US.

 

I was not aware that the military exercised a direct influence in picking the Emperors in Imperial Rome, aside from the obvious example of 196 AD, when the Praetorian Guard murdered the Emperor and auctioned off his throne to the highest bidder. But what you say does make sense.


As far as comparisons can be made between LOTR and WWII, Tolkien felt that Isengard would've stood in for the USSR, not Italy. And I fail to see how the Dwarves were "taken out" in the beginning. What LOTR did you read? In any case, it doesn't matter too much, as he specifically says the book is not allegorical, and would have gone much differently if it was (The Ring would have been used, Barad-dur occupied, and Saruman would then have made his own Ring, and it would have ended up in a long war between the corrupt West and the corrupt Saruman).


The Stormtroopers are in some ways not actually so good a parallel to Hitler's actual "stormtroopers," because Palpatine's Stormtroopers are (fully military) elite shock troops in special armor, uniformly trained and competent, whereas the SA or Sturmabteilungen- roughly "Storm Squadrons"- were just paramilitary political thugs in brown uniforms (hence the name Brown Shirts) and Nazi armbands. The SS, or Schutzstaffeln (Defense Echelons) were intended from the beginning to be more of an elite group, though they took over the functions of the SA after the Night of the Long Knives purge (which eliminated almost all of the SA) in 1934, and the SS was always a paramilitary organization with police and Nazi Party, as well as military, branches and functions. While the pre-war Allgemeine SS were very exclusive, and the early-war Verfugungstruppen were among the best-equipped German units, they tended to substitute Nazi indoctrination for serious military training, and it showed in their inconsistent battlefield performance in Poland.

Later on in the war, many of the Waffen SS units (Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler, Das Reich, etc) did form an elite within the German Army, and continued to have higher priority for the best military equipment, but these units on several occasions violated the Geneva Convention on the Western Front, showing some lack of proper military discipline, and there were also many Waffen SS units of inferior quality. In 1943-1945, especially, the Waffen SS, to a much greater extent than the German Army, hastily raised and organized units of all sorts from various, often non-uniform nationalities, with loyalty ranging from the slightly dubious to the completely unreliable. In some types, such as Gebirgs (mountain) divisions, the number of such units organized throughout the war, outnumbered regular Waffen SS formations.

Whoever pointed out the parallel to the WWI German Stormtroopers was right. Those are indeed a much better historical parallel. They were elite shock troops with flamethrowers and other special weapons, who nearly won the war for the Germans in 1918.


The then-High Command as a whole did not attempt to kill Hitler. The conspirators included a number of retired generals (Halder, Brauschitsch, and either Hindenburg or Ludendorff), several government officials, and a small number of active military officers, including Rommel's chief of staff. Count Claus Schenck von Stauffenberg, who planted the bomb, was the chief of staff to General Fromm, commander of the Home Army, but that's not the same as the entire High Command. Nevertheless, it is true, that many of Hitler's highest officers acted independently and tried to betray him to save their necks at various points. Reichsfuhrer Heinrich Himmler and Reichsmarshall Hermann Goring were the most highly placed of these.


The comparison of Palpatine to Richard Nixon seems very valid to me, with his use of the FBI to spy on his own political opponents, under the guise of "national security." Not to mention the secret bombing of Cambodia, Nixon's plumbers, and the allegations about his secret interference with the Paris Peace Conference.

 

I've always considered the Jedi purge to be more along the lines of Nobunaga Oba's campaign against the warrior monks. He was a warlord during the Sengoku Jidai who was tired of the monks, who had been the nation's primary wildcards since about the 8th century. He razed their temples, the largest one being Enryaku-ji on Mount Hiei, at the end of a long, bloody battle. The monks scattered, many becoming ascetics and wondering mystics. Nobunaga also dealt a powerful blow to Japan's most powerful Ninja families when he invaded Iga province with an enormous army. The Ninja and Monks had much more in common with the Jedi than the Samurai, who I consider to have more in common with the Empire/Vader/Palpatine.

 

Interesting comparison. Those campaigns tend to be overlooked in the context of Oda Nobunaga's overall struggle with Uesugi Kenshin and Takeda Shingen (among others) over the Shogunate, though Oda's hatred of the ninja is well known.

Certainly, the samurai's service to a feudal daimyo, has certain parallels to the Sith apprentice's relationship to his master. The Sith apprentice stands in for a general or senior warrior who skills could be especially useful to the daimyo, but who might also overthrow him and become a daimyo himself. The samurai also served his lord loyally even when his lord was evil, e.g. Oda Nobunaga.

The ninja were more independent in a sense, and more directly connected their warrior traditions to spiritual pursuits, and were rumored to use "magic" (i.e. the Force) to complement their skills, but one should remember that they were also assassins for hire (most unJedi-like). Still, it is quite possible they too influenced the ideas of the Force and the Jedi.

 

I always viewed Emperor Palpatine as, well, the Emperor, and Vader as being a Shogun. The Samurai, despite all of our modern romantic notions, were really harsh, greedy, and oppressive landowners who constantly changed allegiances. The Daimyo were even worse, and I imagine them to be something similar to the Grand Moff's, regional governors who will do anything to control the locals and keep the favor of the Emperor and the Shogun. I read a book called "The Monks of War" for a Middle Ages class a few years ago, and I was amazed at the similarities between the European monastic orders, the Chinese secret societies, the Sohei, the Ninja, and the secret societes of the Arab and Persian worlds. My Dad says I should read "The DaVinci Code", as it supposedly deals with the end of the Teutonic Order in a Palpatine-esque betrayal by the establishment.

 

Unlocking and upping for new discussion.

 

Interesting points by everyone (bar the predictable politician bashing).

I agree with those who believe that Lucas drew upon the demise of the Roman republic in his model for the conception of the Galactic republic (the Roman Empire's rise parallels the Galactic Empire's, I suppose). Palpatine's ascension(as a shadowy military dictator) is surely based more on Julius Caesar or some other military dictator, than the extremely enlightned Augustus Caesar.

One thing that I've not heard mentioned by others so far (including the "heroic and noble general Napoleon" supporter) is the obvious allusion to Napoleon's "Grand Armee" which conquered most of Europe in war after war of aggression, after initally being formed to defend the (then) French republic from war within and without. Palpatine of course, proclaims his "Grand Army" of the Republic shortly after his (Gungan-aided) installation as dictator. In AOTC, the purpose of the army initially is of course, to fight the enemies of the Republic and defend galactic democracy. Napoleon was probably not in cahoots with France's enemies and certainly didn't instigate the original conflict which created the "crisis" in the corrupt and rotting 1st French Republic however Napoleon (arguably) unlike Palpatine,was not a Sith Lord.

Anyone care to speculate on the historical source (if any) of the Gungans?

C_B

 

Quite ironic that the OT starts ( technically ) on a corrupt dessert planet( middle East) where Republic currency is laughed at, slavery is still an institution, people from all over go ther to contract work at the risk of their own lives, and its leaders are nothing more than gangsters. Remember this Middle East conflict started ( for America Anyway ) in the 1970's.

 

The Jedi Purge also lines up with Stalin's Great Purges quite nicely.

There's something about killing off all your experienced military leaders and replacing them...

 

The policies of the Meiji government were much less harsh; the samurai were mostly forced to change professions, and expressions of identification with the class, such as the wearing of swords and wearing of the top knot, were banned.

I have to add my two cents in the characterization that the reorganization of Japan from feudal to modern was "less harsh". I get your point that relative to the outright extermination of a religious order is less severe than restructuring society, but the Meiji Restoration (such a polite term) was a bloody cultural revolution that upturned Japanese society. The subesquent Satsuma Rebellion (so romanticized in The Last Samuri), though a minor war compared so something like WW II, had the potential to completely remove the progressive government.

Removing outward appearances like the top knot and the daisho were symbolic humiliations of a government that essentially overthrew die hard obstructionists who wanted the trappings of government (power) for themselves.