***Parallels Between World History and the Star Wars Saga***

Demonstrating the fact that I have a fair bit of time on my hands at present.... I was very curious to see exactly *what* had been written down on Lucas' legendary yellow writing pad which was shown in the "Empire of Dreams" documentary on the DVDS. I freeze framed the pad and was able to make out something about a Nixon-esque government - Palpatine as Nixon (or rather - Nixon as a sith lord )?

And I like the allusion to Stalin's purges with the Jedi purge though I wonder whether China's cultural revolution and subsequent purges of "intellectuals" could be relevant as well.

C_B

 

" hmmm... I wasn't aware the Saudi royal family qualified as a gang.

Nor was I aware that the imperial family of Iran, lead by the Shah until 1979, qualified as gangsters.

...or the royal family of Jordan, for that matter.

That's a faulty comparison, methinks.

Also--Imperial credits were accepted on Tatooine. We know this, because Han planned to pay off Jabba with the credits that the Rebellion gave him. "


Your right, there not gangs, there worse - there theocracies and autocracies. They treat women and minorities like dog sh@# and their laws are archaic. Any country that cant police its citizenery ( SAUDI ARABIA!! ) from flying planes into skyscrapers and beheading people on public television needs to be seriously enlightened - ALL OF THEM. There isnt one viable democracy in the Middle East right now with the exception of Israel and they need to seriously lighten up, too. And please dont feed me that " terrorism " isnt a country crap, especially when 17 of the 19 attackers of the U.S.A. came from the same country, whose name I wont even write twice. My father AND grandfather both worked there for thirty years in the Corp. of Engineers, so I have a little insight on this and Im sorry to you or anyone else who may be from that region but face the facts - Middle Easterners ( practicing Muslims in particular ) need to police their own or at least have the balls enough to admit that they agree with these thugs and their ways. And Im a liberal whose TOTALLY AGAINST the war in Iraq - thats not where these guys were but thats where they are now.

Youthinks right - I DID make a faulty comparison - because at this point in the game of world history, the Middle East makes Tatooine look like Palm Spring's. And its Republic credits that werent accepted, not Imperial.


EDIT: and Augustus just put a salve on the corruption of Romania- it was Claudius who was the true libertine, philanthropist, and all-round great Ceaser - and just like most of those types he was assassinated by his own.

 

I don't want to get into an inflammatory debate about the middle east here (belongs in the senate floor forum) but I'll just point out that the quite a few of the people living in the totalitarian theocracies and monarchies would, if they could, get out of there and enjoy a different way of existing on this planet. When you're under-educated or illiterate, religious or superstitious and poor and look different for some really bizarre reason other countries just plain don't want you bringing your whole kit and caboodle over to their place. If you try and "rise up" or protest or whatever, why you just get oppressed (which is the whole point of being an authoritarian state).

Onto something somewhat different - some of us are in a prime position (ie - outside Russia), to witness the birth of an authoritarian government in that country. Given that history certainly does repeat itself (and perhaps the "Star Wars Saga" is a take on future history, Lucas' version).. here's what's happened to Russia in the last five or so years:

Democratic government with Vladimir Putin elected as President, following the dissolution of the Soviet Union, with many former Soviet states now gaining their own sovreignty.

--> Civil war ensues as a result of seperatists (Chechnyan) wanting their autonomy;

---> ---> Seperatists resort to increasingly desperate (and, needless to say fairly heinous) acts of violence

leading to awful Belsan school hostage massacre last month

leading to (now & in the name of fighting the war on terrorism):

- censorship of the press (Russian journalists unwilling to stick to the official line get drugged (!) in order to prevent them from reporting on the whole Belsan thing
- harrassment of organisers of major opposition parties (millionaire entrepeteur and would-be leader of a new opposition party jailed and billion-dollar fortune confiscated)
- the suspension of elections for governors in Russia's districts; they are now to be directly appointed by ... the government and the president

Tarkins lines: "The Imperial Senate will no longer be of any concern to us. I received word that the Emperor has dissolved the council permanantly. ... Regional Governors will have direct control over their systems, fear will keep the local systems in line." for some reason seem to be echoing in my head as I write this.

C_B (far, far away from Russia and noting what's going on there out of curiosity)

 

I always thought Star Wars IV-VI was like WWII and the Vietnam War. Lucas is certainly a very intellectual and liberal person, and I salute him for making such a thought-provoking series.

The Empire always reminds of me of Nazi Germany, but I think that he must have had the Roman Empire in mind also. After all, the Palatine was where the Roman palace was, and that sounds a lot like Palpatine. I hope Lucas tells us more about what inspired and influenced him in making these movies in the future.

 

From what I've seen of Kashykk so far, it seems very much like the battle of Normandy!

Which again suggests that the Germans are the good guys and the Allies were the bad guys (I think that Lucas hides a certain admiration for Hitler and the Third Reich, I'm sure he hides it most from his pal Spielbergo!) just like the ANH ending from Triumph Des Willens.

Here I can parallel several things about Palpatine and Hitler.

Palpatine rose from obscurity because his planet was being oppressed by the Trade Federation and this gained him favour. Admittedly he was manipulating them from within, but that's beside the point.

I believe the Trade Federation are like the Jewish moneylenders and merchants of Europe. People more or less accept they are necessary but are suspicious of their business practices and motives. Anti-semitism was strong in all of Europe long before Hitler.

Both Hitler and Palpatine use these to propel themselves up the ranks.

Obviously "Emergency powers" = "Enabling act". The Reichstag fire were the events on Geonosis (staged by Palpatine, as many believe the Reichstag fire was staged by the Nazis).

Hitler starts as party leader, then becomes Chancellor, then Führer.

Palpatine is a senator, then Chancellor, then Emperor.

The Jedi Purge is the Night of the Long Knives, not the Holocaust IMO. I'm a revisionist and don't believe in the Jewish holocaust as large scale genocide (not anything like 6 million anyway) but as forced labour camps and taking of political prisoners, and I'm sure the Empire does some of this too (if you would like to folow me up on this, then please do it in PM and don't turn this thread into a holocaust debate).

Naturally, the stormtroopers are the stormtroopers, the SA and SS. Except the Empire went in reverse, replacing a finely tuned unit (SS/Clonetroopers) with a bunch of rag tag recruits (SA/Stormtroopers).

Vader could be Rohm, Himmer, anyone really. He's just an enforcer. But Hitler from the youth to the adult is also similar to Hitler (although we really don't know much about Hitler's childhood, one can only assume there were factors that helped make him who he was). His loss of Padme might be a parallel to Hitler's loss of his niece. Vader's costume is also obviously very reminiscent of a full SS Reichsführer uniform with gas mask gear.

Hoth was a Panzer division General who was meant to save the starving and freezing German soldiers at Stalingrad, but it never happened. An obvious choice for the ice planet considering the infamous Russian winter.

Just from the ROTS teaser, it looks like we'll have our share of dogfighting and huge side by side ship battles similar to Naval battles (but "faster, more intense" of course!)

Anyway, this thread is great. Lucas always talks about his mythical themes and his "Saturday morning matinees" but doesn't seem to refer to WWII much, where he has clearly taken a LOT of inspiration from.

 

I'm resurrecting this old thread in light of this recent interview published in "The Times of India", where Lucas was asked:

Star Wars has been compared to everything from Macbeth to the Bible, with people detecting traces of Zen and Hindu epics. What have been your biggest influences?

His reply:

The underlying themes in Star Wars come from mythology, and if you look through the history of world mythology, there are certain concepts that keep recurring. Partly, that?s because myths do incorporate some historical elements, and history seems always to repeat itself. Certainly the political aspects of the prequels have a basis in historical events like Caesar taking over the Roman Senate and Napoleon taking over the Republic in France. I?ve taken a story that is fictional and comes from my imagination and I?ve layered on top of it things I?ve learned about the world and our cultures.

I guess that in retropect, we weren't that off the ball ..
C_B

 

as for historical analogs I can think of two more: The first is that the Galactic Old Republic at the time of the prequels is analagous to the Weimar Republic in (1919-1932) Germany. One of the things I find fascinating in the prequels is the functioning of the Galactic Senate which in my opinion is similar to the Weimar Republic`s Reichstag with all of the corruption and intrigue and Papatine`s manipulation of the politcal chaos to his adavantage is similar to Hitler`s rise to power as the Weimar Republic fell apart. Another analog I can think of is that unpopular wars can bring an admistration or a regime down. The Clone Wars are to the Old Republic what Afghanistan was to the USSR or Vietnam was to America.

 

I'm upping this since I'm interested in what new discussions we can have with RotS ending the Saga.

 

I'm interested in reviving this discussion now that we have the complete Saga.

 

Hmm, the Night of the Long Knives, whereas the SS wiped out the SA in 1934 is a really good parallel to the Jedi Purge.

 

Here are some parallels between Palpatine and Hitler, including some things already mentioned -

I watched a video on Hitler's rise to power, and know a bit about him, and I did find there were many similarities between Hitler and Palpatine -

1) His rise to power was for revenge from what the Jedi (or the "Allies") - did at the end of the First World War - vowing to cast revenge

2) His rise to power was aided incredibly by economic instability - in similar there was a decadent Republic with incapable politicians in SW. Germany before the war may have been more difficult.

3) During his time in politics before he becomes chancellor, he makes many female friends, but does not care about any of them. He is only concerned about becoming powerful. His niece is driven to suicide.

4) He becomes chancellor by having a large propaganda team, and powerful friends. After losing an election, his entire party walks out, forcing another election, and another. Its easy to picture Palpatine doing this, if he even had an election.

5) He makes Hidenburg name him Chancellor, by means of false impressions of loyalty and honesty to Germany, similar to what Palpatine does to the ?Loyalist Committee.?

6) Once he becomes Chancellor, he orders the burning the Reichstag, and gives himself emergency powers. He blames it on the "Communists." Once Palpatine is in office, he orders a war, and later blames the whole thing on the Jedi - well, sort of.

7) Apparently he said, (i'm not sure) - "Germany's democracy is threatened, therefore certain civil liberties must be withdrawn." When he announces this to the Reichstag, half the people say "what his going on!" - but when his supporters start drowning out their cries by singing the national anthem, so is the rest of the audience. Notice Palpatine?s inauguration ? the Senators against it are drowned out by the cheering, so it becomes ?This is how liberty dies?. With thunderous applause!?

8) Once in office, he declares martial law, and many of the lives of Germany's citizens are kept in terror. See the parallel to Palpatine?s first few actions.

9) Hitler discriminated against everyone who wasn't "pure German descent" - similiarly Palps is against all non-humans. However his biggest hatred was for Jews - forcing them into detention centres, then using the "final solution" - to kill them all. Same as for the Jedi in SW.

10) Hitler considers himself a saviour of the Republic. Similarly, for all his intentions to do all the disastrous deeds that he intended doing, both Palpatine and Hitler thought they had the interests of the galaxies that they intended owning at heart.

11) Human experiments (this is mentioned in Tales of Bounty Hunters

12) While destroying the Jedi (and the Jews), they are described as though they were trying to take over Germany (and the Republic). ?The Jedi are trying to take over!?

13) I don?t agree with this argument, but I?ll say it anyway. Hitler orders the burning of the Reichstag (this was never proven), blaming it on the Communists, then declares emergency powers to counter terrorism. Palpatine allows himself to become deformed horribly, and lose his lightsaber, and risk certain death, blaming it on the Jedi with ?they are trying to take over? ? convincing his arm and giving him an excuse for emergency powers.

14) After in office, Hitler ends the economic depression, by means of war (and other things). Once in office, Palpatine ended the decadence of the Senate.

15) Palps kills Count Dukoo and the Separatists who helped him gain power ? in similar many of Hitler?s first friends got shot. However this is more a ?Stalin? area.

16) Even while the Allied soldiers are approaching his bunker, with Berlin in ruins, overrun by the rather vengeful Russians, Hitler is convinced that this is his moment of triumph. Even while rebel ships are pouring into an unshielded death star, Palpatine doesn?t even seem to notice ? he is killed in his moment of glory of killing off Skywalker.

 

Anywho this year in my Ancient Civilizations to the 16th Century class, I eventually came to learn a great deal about empires, and most intriguingly, the Roman Empire. I couldn't help but notice an evident parallel between the galactic empire and the romans.

First thing I noticed, the name Dantius(?) Palpatine. It sure as hell looks to me like a Roman name, most similar to Constantine. Not having polished my latin, I have no idea what the prefix "palpa" or the suffix "tine" would mean. I'm sure it would probably have no significance, especially considering that these names are English-ized. I know this because my Ancient Civ teacher was named Kosta, after Constantine.

Now those of you who are history buffs would know that Constantine was the first Christian emperor of Rome. This was important considering that Christianity was not the state religion at the time -- with Roman society worshipping anthropomorphic pagan gods. This led me to the realization that Palpatine was the first leader of the galaxy to belong to a minority religion. The differences between the two lie in the fact that while Constantine forced society to convert to Christianity, Palpatine did not share his religious ideals with anyone(at least not of whom we are aware of) but Vader.

Again getting back to the religion thing, many historians agree that the advent of Christianity to Roman society was certainly a contributing factor to the fall of the Roman Empire; with Christian doctrines prohibiting hatred -- the basic mandate of the 10 Commandments. The irony here is that Anakin's introduction to the dark side caused him to embrace a violent lifestyle rather than a peaceful one, and in doing so ultimately led to the destruction of everything he cared about.

Another thing that I noticed about the fall of the Roman Empire was its direct relation to the Legend of Darth Plagueis. Understanding this relationship is difficult without first attaining a basic knowledge of ancient roman politics. Before Rome was an empire, it was ruled by 3 men: Caesar, Octavian, and Marc Antony(to the best of my recollection). To say the least, the government was corrupt; much like the galactic senate. Getting to the point, Octavian beat his competitor, Marcus Antonius(who chose rather to embrace a lustrous affair with Cleopatra) and declared himself Emperor of Rome, taking the name Augustus. Now this is similar to Palpatine's rise to emperorhood. The most direct comparison lies in the historical fact that to gain the title Emperor, you would first have to eliminate the previous emperor, much as with the legend of Darth Plagueis. As a result, the Roman government became corrupt with power-hungry senators, thus leading to the downfall of the Roman Empire. The Sith solved this problem by only allowing 2 Sith to be alive at any given point, and therefore eliminating any possiblity of betrayal--or so they thought anyway.

 

The " if your not with me then your my enemy " line is clearly a shot at the Bush administration as is the entire political story of Ep3. Thats just my opinion, although in the case of the line I just quoted I must say you'd be hard pressed to convince me that it isnt a direct swipe at 43 and his crew.

 

I don't think it's clearly a shot at Bush. Many leaders have said this over time. However, Bush does sound like this. If we can make connections liket his, maybe we should be a little worried .

 

"If your not with me then your my enemy"

Jesus Christ said this in the bible. I kid you not.

 

This is a minor parallel but I compared SW and Afghan history. The Northern Alliance being the Rebel Alliance obviously, fighting the oppresive government. And then facing a post-war situation with warlords and all the hassles of rebuilding a just society. I guess Al-Queda would be the Sith.

"Before the dark times, before the Taliban..."

 

Excellent post, Roman Numerals. I too have always seen Palpatine's role as being more akin to the Roman Empire than anything else. I certainly see the relation to Hitler, but the Roman connection has jumped out in my mind before and it fits quite nicely in places. I've always seen the transition in Rome with the fall of the senate to the rise of an Empire as being similar.

---

"This idea of a democracy being given up and in many cases being given up in a time of crisis... you see it throughout history, whether it's Julius Ceasar, or Napolean, or Adolf Hitler, you see these democracies under a lot of pressure, in a crisis situation, who end up giving up a lot of the freedoms they have and a lot of the checks and balances to somebody with a strong authority to help get them through the crisis.

You know, it's not the first time a politician has created a war trying to stay in office."
--GL, AOTC DVD[hr][/blockquote]

 

The Emperor is Hitler, Vader is the leader of the SS and the Gestapo soilders and the SA(storm troopers).
The Jedi are the Jews.
Yoda is an Aussie, cause he's hiding in the "Bush"..
Obi is a Brit who doesnt like uncivilized things.
Padme/Queen Amidala is Cleoparta

AND FINALLY
3PO & R2D2 are Harold and Kumar..you decide whos Harold and whos Kumar.

That was fun!

 

did you ever relize that the episode 1 royal ship looks exactly like an sr 71 blackbird
look it up on the internet

 

Appropriate for Anakin to say it, then, since he's the virgin-birth-messiah-from-the-desert character of the series.

Palp's line "I am the Senate" also feels similar to King Louis the 14th (or was it 16th? I keep forgetting which one built Versailes and which one was beheaded) saying "L'etat, c'est moi."

 

I'm interested to know what verse that Jesus quote came from in the Bible.

 

Don't the Neimodian's remind you of imperial japan? Not only do they sound like them but check out the neimodian guards in the Separatist slaughter scene.


Sure they don't put up much of a fight but they look alot like Japanese Soldiers from WWII.

 

:::All further discussion should be directed to this thread.

And so it is...

For anyone who was at the other thread:

I don't give a good Mohammed about GL's personal political philosophy.

I can make up my own mind about politics without watching a movie.

AND, he's a Boomer, and most of that Generation tends to slant on the Commie-Mutant side, but...

I don't care:

I STILL LOVE STAR WARS.

So there.

Savvy?

 

I wouldn't play their game my friend. Sure Lucas hates bush but who doesn't nowadays? It's so hip and trendy... I never thought I'd be part of the counter culture again.

The story was written long before the rise of George Bush the second, the story was laid out that Palps would take over the Republic.. this is seen in TPM, a movie created in 1997... again when Bush wasn't even a likely candidate.

Just wait until Hilary makes it into office, then the republican's will charge that ROTS was forshadowing it.


Laughable!

 

Lucas was more influenced by the Nixon Administration than the Bush Administration. He came up with these ideas during the early 70's, after Vietnam, Watergate, the Cold War, the space race, etc. But, like he says, these things "echo", like a poem.