Peace Throughout The World

I heard about that. There's something like 14,000 people doing it. They're prepared to die, which is dedication. I don't think I'd go that far, but I admire it.

 

I'm not sure what they hope to accomplish. The Muslims of the world aren't all of a sudden going to start to love Americans. We'll always be targets for the extremists. Nor do I think their presence will stop the missiles from flying when the time comes.

I'm all for peace too, but at some point the risk of inaction outweighs the risk of acting. Whether or not we've reached that point yet...I don't know.

 

>Chicagoan jumps on soapbox<

My feeling is, we can't let history repeat itself. A certain dictator in the 1930's rose to power, only to turn on his own people, especially those of the Jewish faith. It was only when it was too late that we intervened and stopped him. Hussein is almost the same, especially with the attacks on his own people, the Kurds, whom he has used chemical agents on. A man, I'm sorry, an animal like this must be stopped. Knowing that he has attacked his own people won't stop him from his attacks on the Western world, the so-called "evil America". I think we have given him more than enough time to come clean with us.

Agree or disagree, that's just my 2 cents worth.

>Jumps off soapbox<

Mark

 

Judo - I believe we have already had this discussion - page back a few.

 

See, that's what my other personality said but I never listen to him.

Sorry.........

 

Hi:

It's Friday! And it's nearly March. One month closer to Kevin returning.

It was the 27th of February. His golden birthday. The night before, I met Kevin after work, we ran
errands, finished packing, and went to Red Lobster (however a rushed dinner
it was very nice) for our 2 year anniverary of dating. Then we drove to
Kevin's parents' to drop off his car. That was really hard--both of us and
his parents all had a hard time saying farewell... they'd done it already
twice before the past few days. Kevin said he wished it were all over
already--it was so hard saying goodbye so often and it all dragging on. Then
I crashed being so exhausted... Kevin came into the room--he was very
freaked out, and it was probably around 1-2a.m. when he woke me up. Then I
started freaking out. It was a very trying night. We had to be at the Fair
Gate 5 at 6:30 a.m. We were nearly late. The doors closed just after we got
inside, and the soldiers had their 1st formation. It was a cold building,
low-lit, no coffee or food, and only a set of bleachers for family to sit
on. We hadn't had anything to eat or drink and we were exhausted. Roll call
panned out, and the soldiers were given a 1/2 hour to spend with their
families. Then there was a 2nd formation. At this time many representatives
and military speakers were heard. The PA was set up. Afterwards, the
soldiers were given another 1/2 hour to spend with their families. There
were kids all over. Some reservists were women with new babies. I felt like
we were in a war movie--it was very painful to see all of these families and
knowing Kevin and I were one of them to part. Because it was dragged on so
long, it was harder than Kev and I thought it would be. Then there was a 3rd
formation. The soldiers were given a lunch, and called by bus. Kevin was bus
#4 out of 5 to caravan with the convoy. Kevin grabbed my hand and we ran out
together with his luggage and the cookies I baked for him. There wasn't a
dry eye in the hospital. Tragic, although romantic, Kevin finally boarded
the bus after an exchange of kisses and sweet words. Afterwards, there was a
call for family members. We all stayed to listen to some of the speeches
afterwards on readiness. All of us were hungry and thirsty. It wasn't until
about 2 p.m. that I finally got out into the daylight and it started getting
a little warmer outside and I drove to McDonald's. Our soldiers will be over
seas for a minimum of 6 months, for up to 365 days + if war breaks out or if
Korea war does, they can be A. transferred immediately, B. if the president
tells them to stay, they stay longer. In WWII troops were overseas for up to
4 years at a time. This is a different situation, so a little more hopeful.
There's a lot of legal, financial and military stuff I have to do while he's
in Ft. McCoy briefing, but it's hard to communicate with him right now since
they have berely a signal and soon he'll have no cell. I know we'll get
through this and we're very determined and supportive of each other, but
this was really hard. After I got out of the meetings I went to run errands
as not to stop home to look through boxes right away. I had my name changed
on my SS, Driver's License, Vehicle Title, and checks made in both of our
names for our new joint account. Then I went home, showered and went
straight to Muckwanago to see my aunt, uncle and grandma. I finally got home
aroun 10 p.m. to get phone calls from my mom, my uncle, my sister and
mom-in-law... After getting off the phone with my mom-in-law I broke down.
Steph called and I think I was really rude, but I guess I have to balance the
going out keeping busy with the time alone. I didn't want to be alone
yesterday, but when I finally was, I realized I'm going to need as much time
alone as I'm going to need company. I'm glad Kevin's family and I are close.
It'll help all of us to get through it together, and that we're all friends
will help me and will help Kevin. When I get his APO address I'll hand it
out. Letters and words of support to the soldie

 

hey everybody. if you would all be so kind as to go to Http://www.620wtmj.com and read the part called "in our voice" it has a link that says sign the petition but all i'm asking is that you read the letter that goes with it. if you do please pm me if you sign. the petition is in support of our troops. not the war. not bush. not saddam. just the men and women who are being sent to the middle east and those who are being called up for active duty. and even those who aren't yet.
the troops need to know that all the people who are saying they are anti war aren't really sure of what they are saying. we don't need to be anti war we need to be anti saddam. so please sign the petition and let the troops know you care.

Red*

 

I know what I mean when I say I am anti-war, and it's the same thing I meant during the Gulf War. I am against our country constantly being the policeman of the world. Why are we (read US) spending all the money, or at least a consistant majority, on these wars when we have things here at home that need fixing, like education, health care, jobs for the unemployed? How many billions are going to be spent this time? And why are we doing this now? Because George W.'s daddy, in deciding to do something the first time, didn't finish the job he started...which is a second gripe of mine when it comes to the stuff the US gets involved in.

I do not fault the troops that are going to war for what they are doing. They are employees of the government and are doing their jobs by following their orders. I place my support fully behind our troops. What I do not support is the government that is sending those troops to do what they will be doing. Therein lies the difference.

 

Oh, Jenni. I can't believe they had so much crap before they left. How much harder do they want to make it?! I'm sorry you had to go thru all of that. Kevin will come back soon, hun. I know I'll send him letters over there. I'll already be writing to about 5 family members and about 7 friends and I'd love to add Kevin to my list!

 

Saturday morning I set my alarm for 3:50 a.m. and was up at 4. By 5 I was at
mom and dad's picking up Kevin's truck. Carried a bunch of CDs with me for
the long haul. Then I was off. I took a copy of the Menomonee Falls paper
and set my course for Ft. McCoy. The sun was rising and I thought, "This is
it-this is our day." After long hours of intense fog and driving I entered
"Military Area" and came across the sign "Hummer Crossing." To my surprise
two Hummers crossed just as I approached the sign. I wondered, "what ever
happened to deer crossing?" Then I approached the main gate. I handed the
security personnel my military ID and then entered Ft. McCoy's main entry.
Every barrack was old and looked alike-reminded me of ghetto. The vehicles
were impressive and many men and women were wearing their BDUs and VDUs. I
paged Kevin on his cell and he helped me to find him. When I saw him it was
like a breath of fresh air-I gasped! I couldn't believe it! It seemed like a
year since I'd see him and it's only been three weeks. We walked around and
read the Menomonee Falls paper together where our article is, exchanging
paragraphs to read to each other. We saw a family of deer-8 of them, and
Kevin said he never saw so many together before-neither had I. He couldn't
leave the base, and so we walked around searching for some privacy but to
find none. Kevin wanted to show me around so he took the pilot's seat of his
own civilian truck I drove up in and started to drive around-because he
usually doesn't have his vehicle there he was exploring new territory too.
We came upon a firing range-we halted. They were shooting off rifles that
shoot automatically. It was amazing, and a little bit scary to me. We drove
very close to the range. To me it really sounded like a battle. Then we
drove near some sand dunes and clay pits. Kevin thought we could park and
climb in them. "This is where they make sand bags" he said just as we
managed to get our tires spinning in the clay. and couldn't get out. A 4x4
pulled up. A major was inside. Kevin was thoroughly embarrassed. So was I.
The guy said nothing and helped push us out. Kev was in civilian clothes as
he was technically "off"-and reminded me this was the first time he'd been
in civ. clothes since he arrived to Ft. McCoy. Then his own Sergeant pulled
up in a Hummer-just to laugh at us. Kevin turned beat red. When they left
and we were finally back on solid ground Kevin mentioned "I'm not going to
hear the end of this for a year." We laughed. For the rest of the day Kevin
bought me souvenirs (a Ft. McCoy t-shirt, an army shot glass and bumper
sticker) and then we went to eat. The food line took forever. And since this
was "preferred" food you had to pay for it. and you couldn't be picky. They
wouldn't make my burger the way I wanted it and were out of fish and
poultry. I had no choice. The rest of the evening we talked and walked to
remain away from the mainstream of McCoy's traffic and people. Towards the
end of the day Kevin got into his PTs and while I was waiting a siren went
off. Everyone in uniform or in PTs outside stopped and saluted-but to what?
Later I asked Kevin and he said they do this twice a day, and you're not
technically saluting to anyone specific. Towards the end of the day the sun
was setting and I sighed and looked at Kevin sadly, "I knew this time would
fly by." We listened to "U2" and sat on the back of Kevin's truck watching
the sunset. Eight deer crossed again in front of us. It illustrated to me
this was the closing of our day. I left McCoy in tears but totally relaxed
to have been out in the fresh air, under the sun, and with Kevin. Next
weekend if he gets a chance (he leaves over seas between March 25 & 30) he
will either try to stop down here in Milwaukee by bus or else if he can't
get off base and still has off I'll go back up one last time. I arrived home
at 10 p.m.

They are saying Bush will make a decision Wednesday (in 2 days) but a B1B is overhead in the middle east and people say it's a sure sign of war.

 

Well, the ultimatum has been handed down. We can only hope Saddam Hussein has a moment of clarity and gets out. If not, and the shooting starts...may God bless our troops and may their aim be true.

 

Baghdad may now have chemical munitions filled with a form of VX nerve agent
as well as mustard gas--I hope Kevin gets immunized for these too.

In his address, Bush warned Saddam to leave the country by 4 a.m. Thursday
(8 p.m. EST Wednesday) or face military action.

New York authorities are implementing "Operation Atlas," a plan to bolster
security throughout the city, a law enforcement source said. Atlas, which
could cost the city more than $5 million per week, will go into full effect
should war with Iraq begin, a source said.

The code orange alert also triggers a series of upgraded security measures
at airports and in other public-transport settings as well as at U.S. Coast
Guard and other government installations.

Orange is the second-highest level in the nation's five-tiered, color-coded
threat alert system.

The United Nations has started evacuating its expatriate personnel,
including dozens of weapons inspectors, from Iraq.

The first group left Saddam International Airport around 10:30 a.m. Tuesday
(2:30 a.m. EST), an airport official said, and arrived a short time later in
Larnaca, Cyprus.

Kevin says when they touch down they'll be ready because they're bearing arms on the plane.

 

"Baghdad may now have chemical munitions filled with a form of VX nerve agent
as well as mustard gas--I hope Kevin gets immunized for these too. "

Since these are not biological weapons there are no "immunizations" as such. He could be imunized against Anthrax or Small Pox - these are "biological" agents.

As far as I know the only defense against chemical attacks are the protective gear and gas masks that they all have to wear.

While I am against the policies that got us here, I certainly hope that when the fighting starts that the attack goes well and the fighting ends swiftly. With some luck the shooting may even be over before Kevin gets over there.

 

C'mon. Just say we're at war, Bush. Enough pussy footing around. I mean, let's reverse the situation here. If Saddam made the same speech to Bush (get out or be bombed), Bush wouldn't move. Neither will Saddam. He's figuring he survived one Desert Storm, so he thinks he can survive another. 48 hours won't make one bit of difference.

I don't support war. I never have, I never will. I do, however, support any man or woman that is in our military. I support the people, not the war. Pray that loved ones and friends come back safely.

 

Not only will Saddam not leave, but Bush just made him a martyr if he dies.

 

Not only will Saddam not leave, but Bush just made him a martyr if he dies.

 

He got his immunization for Small Pox already and 2 of 5 shots so far for Anthrax.

 

Megan, Bush is just playing to his opposition in this country when he sets a 48 hour deadline (those who say diplomacy could still get us out of this), and he *HAS* to give the UN 48 hours to get their people out before we start dropping our bombs - and from what I hear the opening days of the war will see us dropping 10x the amount of bombs that we used in the entire Desert Storm conflict in 1991.

Although I don't support war in general either, I do think it's necessary at times and the fact that Saddam is talking about using biological weapons (which he "didn't have") just makes me believe even more that we're doing the right thing.

Jeff

 

Ahhhhh...Good point, Jeff. I didn't think about all the UN people that are already there.

 

First of all VX and Mustard gas are chemical weapons. There are no immunizations for these weapons, there is only protective gear which may or may not work because it's difficult to test effectiveness. I don't mean to scare anyone but quite frankly they are scary scary things.

Biologicals such as small pox, anthrax and assorted other mutated strains can be immunized against, it does not mean however that you are 100% immune to contracting a biological. The nature of biologicals is that they're mutated to create a much nastier highly contagious airborne strain. Scary? Oh yes, very scary because quite frankly there is no way possible to determine the long term regional or global effects of such diseases.

Not to mention the old fashion bullet which tends to be just as effective in short and long range. Which is why I do support this effort because all of a sudden "Iraq may have biological and chemical ready warheads in place". So if they have them which apparently is the case...who have they sold them to?

Now Rationally and Pragmatically, Iraq would not use such weapons of mass destruction. Why? Because if they do NOT use the weapons we look entirely like the aggressor. If they can't beat us militarily that will beat us diplomatically and politically. If they DO use the weapons, they will have the entire world coming to beat them into submission. According to the Geneva Accords you may NOT have, use or stockpile chemical/biological agents. However, I do not believe that Senior Goofus behaves rationally or pragmatically. If he is rational or pragmatic he would realize, "Okay, yeah..I survived the Gulf War but boy did that suck." And he would seek assylum in Denmark with his now missing "ex-patriot" general who has disappeared who got assylum in Denmark by claiming that Saddy was solely responsible for the use of CHEMICAL weapons on the kurds of Iraq which we as the United States did nothing about.


Okay, I'm done ranting. If you're confused about the nature of my opinion you probably have a good reason to be confused. I hate war, I hate the idea of this war, I hate the idea of American and everyone elses troops dying or being injured, I'm terrified of weapons of mass destruction being sold and used here on American soil on American citizens.

But I believe wholeheartedly in this...

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
-Edmund Burke


M


ps- For those of you against this war, I'm curious. How many of you are against the war because you have little faith or respect for the current administration? Are your opinions based on Bush or on the facts of the conflict? And if you agree with the UN how many more pieces of paper do you think it will take in order to coerce a change in the current regime of Iraq? I'm not attacking any opinions just asking questions to further the debate?

 

I'm against war in general. I'm not very well versed in politics or policies of either our government or of the UN. From what I've heard and what little I know, I just think it's a bad choice.

Saddam was told to disarm. He didn't. I understand that he's violating the UN's order. I just think some more shots at diplomacy by the UN would be worth a try. If the USA had been wronged in some way (Saddam attacking us, etc.), I would see why war might be necessary. I just feel uneasy going into a war, that we're technically starting, with the UN and so many nations against us.

Once again, this may be a naive opinion b/c I don't have all the facts and I don't know politics. All I know is that I have friends and family who may DIE because of this and I DON'T LIKE IT. I'm sure you agree with me there...

 

I do agree with the fact that I'm not looking forward to seeing anyone become a casualty. But I strongly suggest that you understand the position we are in...

First of all there were at least 3 resolutions signed and passed unanimously by the UN that stated unequivacably that if Iraq did not abide by the accords of those resolutions that they would be made to disarm by force if necessary. Every nation of the UN signed that resolution...let me say that again, every nation signed that resolution. By that resolution and by that resolution alone the actions of US are legal according to the UN. If we vote and pass another resolution, what exactly does that say to dictators or other nations that the UN wants to stop? UN says, "If you don't stop right now...we'll sign another piece of paper..."

Now, diplomatically the UN wanted further resolutions after the 3 that were signed and 12 years that have passed with little to no compliance on the part of Iraq.

Diplomacy requires that there are repercusions if you do not follow the protocols of diplomacy. We could impose further sanctions in order to squeeze Iraq into compliance we could be diplomatic bullies toward those dissenting in the UN in order to force Iraq to comply. Hussein is a dictator in every definition of that word. How many presidential palaces does he have and how much of his money is spent on military stockpiled weapons and how many of his people are starving? A car in Baghdad is $500.00 american dollars...which is a little over the average 2 months salary. There are very very few people on the planet that disagree that the Middle East and the world aren't better off without Saddam in power.

But what it comes down to is this, potentially if we do not do this now, those chemical and biological warheads can be sold to the same people that took down the towers, they have the money, the means, and the determination as 2500 people and a country found out.

It isn't an easy answer. I don't expect peoples opinions to sway by my little rants here. But I suggest that if people form opinions those opinions are educated. And that when it comes down to it and we enter Iraq and we will enter Iraq that whatever opinions you have will be tempered by the knowledge that there are American's policing a directive signed by the world to ensure that we are safe and that maybe the world is a little safer as well.

M

PS: I'm done talking about this now. I'm just afraid that folks are going to marry me to my opinions and observations which is apparently amazingly unpopular here. Oh and my family has a strong military background as well and I know for a fact at least someone I know is over there driving a tank like a mad man so it's not like I can't relate and his Dad (the head of the Apache wing) is probably flying overhead.

PPS: And because I don't really expect anyone to read this except the last couple of lines...I'll add some humor..

I believe that Hollywood should seriously consider changing the release date of the Core due to the graphic representation of weapons of mass destruction..

or because it's just crap, one of the two.

 

First off, I apologize for the double post earlier. It was a whoops.

The reason I am against this war:
What we are doing now should have been done the first time around, but ex-president Bush didn't have the balls to finish the job. It's that simple. We wouldn't have to have put up with Hussein and his garbage for the last 12 years if he'd've been removed from power back then.

 

First of all, I fully admit that my take on the war is tainted by my intense dislike of Bush. Having said that, I will try to explain the more objective reasons I have for being against this conflict.

BTW ? Before I get started I do not fault Bush Sr. for not taking out Mr. Crazy in the last war. He did exactly what the UN mandate called for. There was (and is still) intense debate as to what Iraq would become if it were liberated. Sadam is crazy but stable (if that makes any sense). Whether a new dictator arises our democracy flourishes the region will be much less stable (if that?s possible) than it has been. I could explain my reasons here, but that would probably double the length of this post.

Now ? on to some of my reasoning:

1) Inspections WERE working ? maybe not the way Washington had hoped, but over time Saddam would have effectively been castrated. Yes he could hide weapons and YES he could still produce them secretly ? but where could he use them? You could have had hundred or even thousands of inspectors scouring his country. Also, if he actually did attack someone he knew that he would be instantly removed with a coalition similar to the one formed in 1990. Why do I believe this? Because he was smart enough not to use WMDs in 1990 when he thought his very survival was at steak. Above all else Saddam seems to want to survive. This makes him much more ?controllable? than Osama?s folks.

2) This isn?t really a reason ? but I felt I need to put it in hear anyway. I am REALLY sick of people in this country and our own government saying that if you disagree with us you?re an idiot and un-American. The most American thing you can do is protest ? I really think this ability is even more important than voting. The same people that claim to be patriotic say we should all get in line and support Bush without questioning him. Isn?t that the same sort of ?protesting? that goes on in Iraq now? Since when were conflicting opinions on national policy ?un-American?? Along those same lines, why do other countries not have the right to disagree with us? How long will France ?owe? us? If France does owe us for WW1 and WW2 then we CERTAINLY owe them for the revolution and the Louisiana purchase. It could be argued that if it weren?t for the French we would all be singing ?God save the Queen? right now.

3) We have done major harm to world relations. We are now looked at as an imperialistic nation more than ever. To those of you that say - ?yeah ? but we?re the GOOD guys? ? that?s what most invading nations have believed through history. We carry a unique responsibility as a nation to constantly prove to the world that we are not just looking out for our own interests, but also for the interests of the ?little guy?. On this front we have failed miserably. After 9/11 we had an opportunity to get help from the rest of the world and move forward together. Instead we shrugged off the UN, ignored NATOs offer for military support and went to war alone. Did we need them militarily? No. However it would have helped project the image that we listen to the world community and respect their opinions.

4) This president?s policies send a horrible message to future aggressors. If you have nukes we?ll negotiate. If you?re trying to get them we?ll attack you. The end result of this is that dictators should try to get nukes as soon as possible so you can negotiate from a position of power. It also tells the rest of the world that America will decide who gets nukes and who doesn?t ? NOT the world community. While WE may be comfortable with that, you can certainly see why the rest of the world isn?t. BTW - anyone who thinks Sadam is more likely to sell WMDs to terrorists than North Korea needs to take a serious look at the history books. I do not claim to have a path for a solution here, but I am reasonably sure we are not on that path now.

Marcy, Dwayne and Jeff ? I know my opinions differ with you guys on some (if not all) of this, however I probably respect you MORE simply because we are

 

I just want to point out that in 1990 Hussein did not have a method of launching those WMD effectively (what nutbag has wmd but is unable to launch them?). If he had a method of launch, I believe it's possible he would have used them. This time around, he does have launch capabilities, strategically it would be not in his best interest to launch them but I get the distinct feeling we're going to see that.

As for whether or not the inspections would have worked, there was an admission that he could create and stockpile weapons well then there's no doubt he could sell them. The worry about launch from Iraq is not the only concern. And if the inspections were becoming sucessful how does he potentially have chemical and biological weapons? I do not find that to be a measure of success. Also take into consideration that there were missles found that by their manufacture were incapable of carrying conventional ordinance and were designed specifically to carry chem/bio agents. No one builds a gun you don't have ammo for...
All of these items were revealed after discovery they were not disclosed by Iraq. This is not compliance.

I'm going to say this again, being a threat AND having biologicals is not a threat to the region, it is not a threat to the US it is a threat to the world. There is no way to determine the the long term outcome of the use of biologicals. They have these weapons, they've used them. We've seen them and there folks with warrants for war crimes because of it. That is what the UN resolution stated, that is what every UN member on the planet signed and that is what the US is enforcing. I'm more worried about the UN's inabilities than our diplomatic faux pax. UN suspended inspections. UN's disregard for it's own resolutions should be a point of much more concern. UN's inaction is just as disturbing as our action.

As for North Korea, they are NOT allowed to have nuclear weapons. It violates the armistice. However, North Korea has weapons but hasn't used Nucs..Iraq has chem/bios and has used them. North Korea could sell Nucs just as easily as anyone else including the members of the former Soviet Union. Which is probably the next issue...

In response to the idea that Saddam regime is relatively stable. Hitler's regime was stable, Pole Pot (because I can't spell that), Pinochet, Khadafi, Khomeni (Dwayne calls him hot potato because of the funeral thing, he's a sick little man), Stalin, Chow-Chess-kew (spelling phonetically here, what's with dictators having horrible names to spell?), King George III, Noreiga, Marcos, Milosevich and Castro..all very stable during their time in power. Stability does not always mean something good. Status Quo is arguably sometimes a very very bad thing. (Do I get a prize that I can name so many evil nasty dictators off the top of my head or are you all just looking at me weird?)

And for the record, I think it's stupid censorship to not play the Dixie Chicks because they said anti-American things. Granted if they don't play them I don't have to listen to them suck but that's a whole new issue. I think if you are against this war, you should say so. But say so intelligently, with a reason...war is bad isn't a reason. Everyone knows war is bad. War is also at times necessary as unpleasant as that is. Oh and President Bush is not a Nazi. People need to use their voices wisely. Throwing the word Nazi around isn't going to lend credibility to anyone.

M


Okay, now I'm really going to shut up before I irritate Dwayne.

Oh, btw, I watch too much CNN can you tell?