Lit Pellaeon and the Imperial Remnant (split from Thrawn thread)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by comradepitrovsky, Apr 20, 2017.

  1. Jeff_Ferguson Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2006
    star 4
    Is that the convo that birthed this thread? I'm only halfway through Thrawn and so all I know about this thread's genesis is its opening post:

    Very confusing.
  2. instantdeath Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2010
    star 5
    @GrandAdmiralJello

    I'm curious: in your esteemed view (which is, of course, sanctioned by the Empire, you being the acting head of the Ministry of Imperial Propaganda), who's more disgusting: the Imperial Remnant, led by Pellaeon, or the First Order?
  3. Vthuil Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2013
    star 5
    Well, originally it was just a comment by someone preferring Eli Vanto as a "Watson" for Thrawn, but I meant more generally that underneath the persona, one of Jello's biggest reasons for pushing this antagonism-towards-Pelly thing is that readers overall have tended give Zahn a much harder time about "whitewashing" Thrawn then they do the multiple authors who whitewashed Pellaeon.
    GrandAdmiralJello likes this.
  4. Charlemagne19 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 8
    In West End Games, it stated a very interesting fact which I assumed came from Zahn's notes but would have been awesome to bring up in the books.

    Pellaeon's job during the Empire after the Clone Wars but before Endor?

    Wookiee Slaver. He went on attacks to grab them and then take them off to be used in Imperial facilities.

    I always felt that was a very interesting story to be told as it indicates he was a man who either did not see aliens as human or was the kind of clockwork punch clock Imperial who'd do whatever he was told.
    Last edited by Charlemagne19, Apr 20, 2017
    Gamiel, Iron_lord and instantdeath like this.
  5. instantdeath Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2010
    star 5
    Damn. I like that. Gives an interesting spin to the "man of honor" Pellaeon is often depicted as. If he's a racist himself, adds another dimension to him coming to admire Thrawn. He certainly showed enough hostility towards Rukh, but then again, I'm sure that Nogrhi did go out of his way to be very creepy.
    Charlemagne19 likes this.
  6. Darth Invictus Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2016
    star 4
    Well not long after his death-apparently later in the century before Legacy the Imperial Mission began and the empire slowly but surely reestablished itself. A hundred and eleven years or so the GA surrendered. So I imagine he was proven right by legends history.

    I don't think he lying to the moffs-he was making a genuine appeal. "Hey its stupid and pointless to continue fighting, we will lose, if we surrender, if we can endure the New Republic will falter-either through internal crisis-which the EU does note-the Rhommamool conflict(there are other conflicts of similar natures taking place throughout the Galaxy according to Vector prime) the Caamasi documents crisis-Palleon perceptively sees that the NR isn't stable or guaranteed not to fall into civil war itself. He didn't even predict the Vong invasion but that really broke the back of the NR.

    Speaking of canon vs legends GCW I prefer Legends-for one space opera is supposed to be grand scale and the SW Galaxy is pretty big. Second the empire's disintegration, revivals and setbacks were a logical course of a war taking place on a galactic scale. It might not be as cinematically appealing as total victory in a day but it's more sensible than it falling apart in a year. Also the Empire isn't without benefits-people who previously knew instability-the clone wars, human colonists attacked by Hutts, businessmen seeking a less corrupt and Byzantine environment-I don't see why there wouldn't be sectors of galactic society that supported the empire.

    Palleon in the end saw that the NR wasn't eternal and understood the ideals of the Empire-stability, loyalty, reverence for authority and so on actually appeal to people who are tired of constant war, strife, incompetence, and failure after failure- perhaps you could legitimately argue democratic governance simply doesn't work in the GFFA. Palleon's surrender preserved the empire as an institution and an alternative to whatever failures the NR or GA would fall though every other week. The man was probably one of the more competent politicians in SW.
  7. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 8

    It did come up in Heir to the Empire at least:


    “Consider. Solo and Organa Solo have nothing to gain by simply transferring together to the Lady Luck—the Millennium Falcon is faster and far better defended. This exercise only makes sense if Organa Solo and the Wookiee are together.” Thrawn smiled up at Pellaeon. “And given that, there is only one logical place for them to go.”
    Pellaeon looked at the display, feeling slightly sandbagged. But the Grand Admiral’s logic tracked clean. “Kashyyyk?”
    “Kashyyyk,” Thrawn confirmed. “They know they can’t evade our Noghri forever, and so they’ve decided to surround her with Wookiees. For all the good it will do them.”
    Pellaeon felt his lip twitch. He’d been aboard one of the ships that had been sent to Kashyyyk to capture Wookiees for the Empire’s slave trade. “It may not be as easy as it sounds, Admiral,” he cautioned. “Kashyyyk’s ecology can best be described as a layered deathtrap. And the Wookiees themselves are extremely capable fighters.”
    “So are the Noghri,” Thrawn countered coldly.


    Given that Dark Lord ends with Vader and Tarkin conquering the planet and sending the Wookiees away to the Death Star as slaves - I'd suggest he was commanding one of the ships in Tarkin's fleet at that point.


    I could see Pellaeon as someone who'd initially bought into Humanocentrism, but who'd figured out from his experience with Thrawn that it was a mistaken idea - which is why he's so supportive of Daala's reforms.
    Darth Caliban and instantdeath like this.
  8. Jeff_Ferguson Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2006
    star 4
    I wonder if they originally intended to whitewash Daala by making her the Chief of State. If she originally would have been one of Fate of the Jedi's heroes rather than one of its villains. Rostoni, Denning, and Allston all spent a lot time on the Official Site forums doing damage control when Invincible was released (seriously), which could have helped steer them in the villain direction, especially if any of them had stuck their nose in here (remember how much we loved that development?). I mean, when you consider how haphazardly Fate of the Jedi was planned, and how much of its plot was seemingly come up with on the fly, it's not the most far-fetched theory.
    Last edited by Jeff_Ferguson, Apr 21, 2017
    Charlemagne19 likes this.
  9. instantdeath Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2010
    star 5
    @Iron_lord, I just want to acknowledge that you're a bonafide quoting machine. True Star Wars scholar.

    [IMG]
    Iron_lord and AusStig like this.
  10. patchworkz7 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2004
    star 4
    Well, it's unclear what was planned for FoTJ, but it sounded like they didn't have the issue of CoS settled until late, but we do know some things:

    The question of who would be CoS was still up in the air when Traviss finished REVELATION. Traviss' suggestion had been Cha Niathal depending on how she can't through Invincible.

    In Revelation, Daala was supposed to be an obviously...well, perhaps not unstable, but a mercenary pirate queen who had bartered the data and tech from the Maw to for a militia, the same sort of militia that she used early on to ferry colonial flotillas, fight skirmishes against the NR, and eventually quietly protect worlds that no one thought worth protecting. This was someone who'd walked away from the position of Supreme Commander but seemed not to be able to leave the life of perpetual thorn in the side of the NR and protector of those she saw as being under Imperial protection.

    Daala's role could have potentially gone to three characters; Airen Yage, suddenly appearing with the Widowmaker to back Pelly's play, or Leonia Tavira appearing with the Invidious if it was still around (iirc, it was) but she was the least connected to Pelly, but Daala had the closest ties with Pelly and Yage's fate was....confused...to say the least, and Daala had a history of being unstable. Plus bandit queens are cool...I admit I like the idea of a Captain Harlock type pirate tooling around the GFFA, showing up to be a pain in the backsides of the GA and IR as need be...or to help either or both if she was in the mood. I wish they'd used her like that.

    I remain gobstruck by them picking Daala for CoS as it makes no sense.

    A hypothetical alternative storyline with The Maw Irregular Fleet as a mercenary/pirate fleet backed up by Mandalorians fed up with being tied too closely with either Imperials or Republic, Sith or Jedi, but willing to sell their services might have been an interesting storyline if you think there might have been some inclination to whitewash Daala, but she was brought back in Revelation to serve one purpose and to be there as bandit queen if any other authors wanted to play with her. There was no intention of making her CoS when she was brought back.
  11. instantdeath Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2010
    star 5
    Having read LOTF for the first time recently, I honestly wouldn't have minded the Daala being CoS thing: if Luke, Leia and especially Han wouldn't have been painted as okay with it. The main heroes having one of their old enemies elected as Space President against their will is hokey, sure, but could be mined for some good storytelling. Having the big three support it, however, just paints them with an idiot brush, and by extension, a lot of the story itself. Perhaps the galaxy at large thinks they need someone like Daala in the lead (not entirely unbelievable they'd elect an imbecile to lead them, considering certain real life political situations that I will not specify because I am politically correct and deeply sensitive). But the main characters should know better. They should be horrified at the idea of handing a Republic they had fought so hard for over to a homicidal maniac that had tried her absolute best to destroy that very Republic years before. Leia should be appalled by the political ramifications. Luke by the moral ones. And Han, who I single out especially, should not, in any possible universe, say that "Daala might not be so bad." This is Han Solo, the guy who distrusts all politicians, even the benevolent ones. The guy who practices his reflexive cynicism as much as he does his quick blaster draw. The guy who got tortured by this person. Han's not gonna let that go for no better reason than, "ehh, why the hell not?"

    But obviously that's an old rant that is not even close to unique to me. Whenever I read a page that has any of the main characters approving of Daala, I just rewrite it in my head, as otherwise it makes no sense.
    Last edited by instantdeath, Apr 21, 2017
  12. Darth Caliban Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 2015
    star 4
    During the Freedom Nadd Uprising the Republic seemed to be this way, according to the Comics.

    It was the Old Republic, but still...
  13. Jeff_Ferguson Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2006
    star 4
    Oh, yeah, I remember you saying that Traviss had no intention of making her Chief of State (badda-boom). What I'm wondering is if Denning and the Fate of the Jedi planning team were thinking about whitewashing her and making her one of that series' heroes. Planning for FOTJ was already underway when Invincible was released, and if my musing has any kernel of truth to it, then the fan reaction to her being made Chief of State may have dissuaded them from that tack. All just musing, though, not based on anything other than the EU's history of "white-washing" Imperial characters like Thrawn and Pellaeon.

    Like you, I enjoyed Daala's role in Revelation as a crazy pirate queen. But her being elevated to the Chief of State Role made absolutely, unequivocally, inarguably ZERO sense both in-universe and out-. She is not and never has been a good person.
    Last edited by Jeff_Ferguson, Apr 21, 2017
    Charlemagne19 likes this.
  14. AusStig Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2010
    star 4
    Pellaeon is a coward and a traitor. All he does is give up, he ran from Endor when the Empire had it's last best chance to win the war, he ran from Bilbringi (even Thrawan was worried, but he still could have made more of a go of it) he is given a large Empire by Daala and promptly losses most of it. He is not a leader, he lacks the drive and vision to inspire others, he lacks the charm and charisma to draw others to him and he lacks the skills needed to win wars, never mind manage the economy (say what you like about Zsinj but he least he knew how to run a business).

    Then comes his greatest treason. His surrender to the Rebellion I mean New Republic. He just gives up when his dumb stealth thing doesn't work, even though another Moff has a plan to get the Empire back in the game. Yet we act like Pellaeon is the good guy, why?
    Charlemagne19 likes this.
  15. Anedon Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 11, 2016
    star 4
    Because he was the first imperial character introduced in SW who had a somewhat sympathetic PoV. And it were his PoV from which we saw Thrawn. That earned Paelleon a lot of sympathy and later NJO made him essentialy an ally to the protagonists.
    And why he did lost a lot of battles his surrender showed that he wasn't a complete idiot like so many other imperials.
    Iron_lord and Charlemagne19 like this.
  16. Zohar Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 22, 2017
    star 1
    Like I said, Pelli is a competent leader. i think what hurt him the most was the inside joke about the "retreat" thing. Zahn uses this on Endor and the final battle as an analogy of Palpatine and Thrawn, but the other authors exagerated on it so Pelli could use his retreat routine on all his battles.
    Charlemagne19 likes this.
  17. DarthKuriboh Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2007
    star 3
    He wasn't the only officer to abandon the fiasco at Endor. If the Emperor hadn't been so busy trying to turn the military into his personal puppets, the entire Navy could have fought better after he died. Instead, he kept pushing through the force to control the outcomes of battles through controlling the intentions of the people fighting them... which only works if you're winning or a military genius like Thrawn... Thrawn with a Dark Lord of the Sith's power in the force would be a wondrous thing to behold.
    Iron_lord and Charlemagne19 like this.
  18. Vialco Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2007
    star 4
    I really do love this different direction that's being taken with the Empire in Canon. Now when I watch ROTJ and see those galaxy-wide celebrations at the end I actually feel optimistic. Because the Rebel Alliance Jedi actually won. The Sith and their entire Empire are gone. Endor isn't just a symbolic victory but a near-total victory.

    The Empire cannot survive without a Dark Side mastermind at its head. Because the whole organization was created by the Dark Lord of the Sith. The Republic was a good government, a bit slow and bogged down with bureaucracy but definitely not evil. The only good aspects of the Empire are the remnants of the Republic officers and principles and senators. By ANH those remnants have been swept away and there is nothing good left about the Empire. That's why the Galaxy rejoices at Palpatine's death and the downfall the of the Empire.
    Charlemagne19 and Gamiel like this.
  19. mnjedi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 4, 2012
    star 2

    Pelly is competent, but not brilliant. However hes aware of his own weaknesses. He calls the retreat at Bibringi because he knows that even though Thrawn could have won the fight, he can't, and hes not going to lose the fleet in his pride. Same goes for Endor, even if his assumption that the chain of command fell to him was somewhat erroneous. His realistic assessment of his own abilities, and unwillingness to commit to unwinnable battles instead of losing tons of ships out of pride is why he winds up the last imp standing.
    Iron_lord likes this.
  20. GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin + Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

    Administrator
    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2000
    star 10
    The canon Empire fell much faster, but it also reflected that the Empire wasn't around all that long either -- and that the Clone Wars were relatively fresh too. I think it makes sense, I just wish the war lasted a little longer than just a year after Endor. That's kind of silly.


    That's a difficult question to answer, knowing as little as we do about the First Order. As it stands, the Remnant is a miserable backwater failure. The First Order is a psychotic organization. They're both paltry shadows of a once grand Empire -- the FO being perhaps a more successful reflection of the New Order worship of the Remnant.


    What are you talking about?

    He was a junior officer who mutinied and illegally seized control of a fleet. He abandoned a grand admiral on the field.

    He should have been shot on the spot.



    Missa ab iPhona mea est.
    AusStig and Daneira like this.
  21. Charlemagne19 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 8
    Interestingly, I think Mas Amedda's ties to Sate Pestage make an interesting note.

    Remember, Sate Pestage tried to cut a very similar deal to Mas Amedda's one in the Rogue Squadron comics.

    He was going turn over Coruscant to the Rebels in exchange for his homeworld.

    In this reality, the plan succeeded except it was the Empire for Coruscant.

    As much as I love the people who did these sort of retcons, this was a dumb one. Adding other Admirals to Endor, let alone, Grand Admirals and so on makes no damn sense.

    PIETT was in charge of the Fleet at Endor.

    Piett under DARTH VADER.

    He was the highest ranking fleet officer there and when he died, command passed to the commander of the Chimera (presumably a Vice Admiral) who died and passed command to Pellaeon who ordered the fleet to retreat.

    After all Pellaeon had seniority due to his Clone Wars experience.
    Last edited by Charlemagne19, Apr 21, 2017
    Iron_lord likes this.
  22. comradepitrovsky Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2017
    star 3
    In a post-Prequel Trilogy world, it makes sense the put Amedda in that role. Had he existed then, I'd wager Stackpole would have used him as well.
    AusStig likes this.
  23. GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin + Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

    Administrator
    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2000
    star 10
    C19, you can't just fanfic a vice admiral into existence to justify your argument.


    Missa ab iPhona mea est.
  24. Charlemagne19 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 8
    Well, Captain Pellaeon was second in command on the ship and a Captain.

    So, are you arguing there were TWO Captains on the ship?
  25. comradepitrovsky Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2017
    star 3
    . . . Forgive my ignorance, but wasn't Admiral Strage or Stroge or something commanding from the bridge of the Chimaera until his death?
    Iron_lord likes this.