"People looking for things to hate will find them"

This is a repost of a thread by -Madcap- posted the day after Attack of the Clones was released:

So the dialog is cheeze, what? You went to a Star wars movie for the Citizen Kane like Dialogue?

You went for the Matrixlike wirework?

The Terminatorlike violence?


Then i am thrilled to see you disapointed. This isn'nt the matrix, so why do we need wirework (nothing against the Matrix). This also isn't the Terminator, sorry that you like blood.

This is Star wars. period.

This thread is for the Bashers to justify themselves, now that thet are a minority they need to do so.

Face it, most fans loved ATTACK OF THE CLONES (Title, in your faces).

WHAT didn't you like, why are you flaming it?

Now, the post was pretty vague, but it does bring up a very good point.

People complain about the dialogue in Attack of the Clones. Comparitively, it is no worse than any other Star Wars film. Are you expecting a science fiction film to have the world's greatest dialogue? I sure am not. Honestly, as long as it is understandable and makes sense, the dialogue isn't much of an issue with me. I do not expect perfect dialogue when I watch a Star Wars film. I like to enjoy the plot and enjoy having a great time watching a great movie.

The wirework? It has a great plot. I loved the plot of Attack of the Clones. Sure, they may be a thing or two I would change, but not much of anything. Leave it like it is! It is a great film, I think that if people do not like it then they should go and watch The Matrix or Lord of the Rings (which had a plot butchered from the original books) or something like that. No one is forcing you to watch Attack of the Clones, people.

Violence? How can someone complain about the violence in either direction? The violence was the amount that was needed. There was the largest land battle of the all the films, nearly the largest battle period. (face it, ROTJ owns.)

I agree that this is Star Wars and not some other series. Enjoy it for what it is. Do not compare it to other series' and just enjoy Star Wars for what it is: Star Wars. Everything is becoming to comparative these days, and that is one reason the Classic Trilogy stands firm, people don't sit around and compare it to other films like they do the prequels.

Unlike -Madcap- I do not with the bashers to "justify" themselves, though. I do not want this to be a basher/gusher thread. All I want is for people to enjoy the films instead of complaining about them. Discuss things you like for once, not what you do not like. I am sure the bashers have many things that they liked, and could discuss those just as easily.

And from looking at old posts, it seemed that when Attack of the Clones first came out, people loved it. But now that there has been time for people to find every little nit-picky detail to complain about, the numbers of those who still like the film are decreasing.

I think that when people complain about the film, it ruins the experience for others. Come on everyone, let's talk about what we like. Use this thread to discuss how much you liked the battles, how you enjoyed the story, and how, most of all, you wish that Attack of the Clones was not constantly compared to other films!

 

Yep, bashers ruin everything for the rest of us.

 

Only if you let them ruin it for you.

 

I am way too emotional so people can get to me very easy at times. Everytime I hear or read someone criticize the movies or Lucas, I feel as if they are criticizing me and it hurts me.

It's something I can't help; it's moved beyond my ability to change.

 

Stop being so sensitive to criticism and eat an ice cream cone.

 

i am not one of those fans whose love for AotC is decreasing....i love it.....there i said it...now only if it would love me back.....


...the cloner

 

i am not one of those fans whose love for AotC is decreasing....i love it.....there i said it...now only if it would love me back.....

Ooh. Can I use that for my signature? He he!

Its funny the more criticizm I hear of AOTC (at theforce.net discussion boards), the more I find things that make it love it more.

 

I do agree that some people were actually desperate to hate AOTC. They really wanted to hate it as much as they could, and they made damned sure they got what they wanted, even when AOTC turned out to be the best Star Wars film since 1980. It was almost the best Star Wars film since, well, since forever.

Bashers always have double standards, however. They'll happily trash AOTC for various things, yet they let the selfsame things slide by unnoticed in the OT.

Of course, you do get the people that just actually don't like the Prequels, and back that up honestly and with good manners. They don't pull out hundreds of excuses, or use other films as weapons, and they certainly don't dump on others for liking the Prequels. Those, I have respect for. Unfortunately, those fans are tragically few. I totally agree with a post further up that the bashers do ruin it for the rest of us. They really gave it thier all to make discussing Star Wars an unpleasant activity, and I hate to say this, but they have all but won thier war against us. That is why I seldom post on thier forum anymore. Yes, Yodajeff is right that we don't have to let the bashers ruin it for us. Unfortunately that means we actually have to stop discussing Star Wars.

-JDR.

 

what a nonsensical thing to say that you can't expect good dialogue in a Science Fiction film. There are thousands of great works of SF or Fantasy in film or novel format that have great or good or acceptable dialogue, whether it's Dune or 2001 or Blade Runner or Alien or LOTR or Fahrenheit 451 or countless others. Why can we not expect the same in Star Wars.
Some people are funny since they reply to every criticism by saying that we shoudn't expect this or that. Of course one shouldn't expect Matrix wirework in Star Wars just like you shouldn't expect the appearance of a UFO in Gone with the Wind but then I never heard anybody voice this particular citicism. But to say we shouldn't expect a well-written script or shouldn't expect good acting and shouldn't expect decent stage direction then what on Earth SHOULD we expect other than loud explosions and lots of CGI blobs and frogs?

 

sure openmind...you can use it...you'd just have to quote me.....


...the cloner

 

Jedi Master Ousley
Well I read your post and you seem to be asking for people to post their positive thoughts about AOTC, in which case I think it was unwise to call your thread "People looking for things to hate will find them".
For a start that's a negative title, and also - it's nonsense, how do you know people wanted to dislike this film? If people don't like things about AOTC then it's up to them to say what/why and the rest of us can respond.

And I've noticed a lot of anti-basher comments rather than positive remarks about AOTC, remarks such as:

Yep, bashers ruin everything for the rest of us.

I do agree that some people were actually desperate to hate AOTC.

Bashers always have double standards, however.

I totally agree with a post further up that the bashers do ruin it for the rest of us. They really gave it thier all to make discussing Star Wars an unpleasant activity, and I hate to say this, but they have all but won thier war against us. That is why I seldom post on thier forum anymore. Yes, Yodajeff is right that we don't have to let the bashers ruin it for us. Unfortunately that means we actually have to stop discussing Star Wars.

What a ridiculous thing to say. Just because some of us are critical of these films you say that it means you have to stop discussing the films. Hysterical rubbish.

I'm frankly getting sick of a lot of these anti-basher posts. 'basher' is a lighthearted term used to indicate someone here who is critical of the prequels. However just lately I'm noticing a lot of remarks, here and in other threads, trying to demonise 'bashers'.

JMO - perhaps you should clarify what your thread is about, I assume it wasn't meant to be an anti-basher thread.

g

 

If your focus is to find new ways to be let down by the prequels, then you will find more reasons to be let down.

Take the basher's sanctuary for example, where a bunch of negative fans got together to make sure they didn't miss any of the reasons to be let down. I even remember one time where a new reason to be let down was given and other members of the BS said they were going to rent the TPM DVD just to revel in this new reason to dislike TPM.

In this case, people were focusing on the negative, and they found it in spades.

What this thread is about is taking a positive appraoch instead. To think of the prequels in a positive way, to find the good reasons to like it instead of hate it.

As always, your focus determines your reality.

 

Use this thread to discuss how much you liked the battles, how you enjoyed the story, and how, most of all, you wish that Attack of the Clones was not constantly compared to other films!

Hmmmm looks like I will be the first one to be on topic.

This is my fav Star Wars movie. It is right above TESB. It has ever thing I coudl hope for. Jedi fighting. A love story I like and so on. I really like this movie.

 

I agree that the "basher" movement largely consists of mindless criticism, and that many of these people look for any excuse to denounce the new Star Wars movies.

However, I don't think that the right reaction is to insist that Star Wars just be enjoyed for what it is and not be compared with other movies, or critically evaluated. One cannot defend a movie against criticism by saying "it's supposed to have that flaw" or "nobody's forcing you to watch it". Those are not defenses; they are merely evasions of the activity of criticial evaluation.

I love The Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones. The latter is my second favorite movie (after ANH) and the former probably my fourth or fifth (it's a close call between it and ESB).

But I do have some criticisms of each. It is possible for me to like these movies - indeed, to consider them among the greatest motion pictures ever made - without either insisting that they are faultless or demanding that the faults be ignored.

I think that some of the dialogue in AotC is rather poor - worse than in other Star Wars movies. I think that on the whole, the dialogue in the movies is fairly good. But there are only a few places in AotC where the dialogue is bad (elsewhere it's above average), and the quality of the prose is just one small piece of the overall experience. So it doesn't really detract from the movie very much at all. On the other hand, the story, the characterization, the visual effects, the music, etc. - all of these are great. So the net result is that it's one of my favorite movies.

It is similar with TPM. I really strongly dislike Jar-Jar's presentation. But this is a fairly superficial flaw. The movie is otherwise so excellent that that flaw is relatively unimportant.

So I think that the healthy thing to do is neither to insist on hating the movies nor to insist on refraining from criticism. For they can certainly stand up to intelligent criticism.

 

A lot of it has to do with the viewer's approach. One man's flaw is another man's skillfully employed technique.

I don't think the criticism has been "mindless" in fact I think it's the fact that they have such an active mind that they are more apt to second guess something Lucas did instead of taking it at face value because they come up with all these alternate ways it could have been done.

I have always said that if they were to put that kind of thinking towards making sense of what Lucas did, they might have enjoyed it better.

Sure, you could always come up with alternate ways of doing things, but you have to ask yourself, do you want to enjoy the actual SW movies that were made, or do you want to lament what will never be?

 

I will watch it.

I will see what happens in my reaction.

The only thing I hated was that it was all spoiled for me and I already predicted Shmi would die so having a terrible expierence in AOTC was inevitable.

 

Well I read your post and you seem to be asking for people to post their positive thoughts about AOTC, in which case I think it was unwise to call your thread "People looking for things to hate will find them". For a start that's a negative title, and also - it's nonsense, how do you know people wanted to dislike this film? If people don't like things about AOTC then it's up to them to say what/why and the rest of us can respond.

The reason I named it as such was because it was the name of the original title of the thread from which I got the text by -Madcap-. It does make sense, because it is pointing out the things that people do not see as wrong at first but the more and more people see it and talk about it, they start seeing every little thing as wrong. There is a thread in the non-spoilers forum about whether people will purposely watch Episode III to hate it, and a lot of the responses seem to agree with my thoughts: people will see Episode III just so they can point out the flaws. I have even seen people say that on these boards before.

I think the films should be enjoyed for they are: Star Wars films. One of my points is that they shouldn't be compared to other films, they should be looked at on their own. Comparing them to Lord of the Rings or The Matrix is like comparing apples to oranges. They are about different things, with completely different plots, yet they are compared by their effects and things of that sort. Why not look at them all individually and stop making comparisons?

And I've noticed a lot of anti-basher comments rather than positive remarks about AOTC, remarks such as:

Is it my fault that people didn't fully read the thread?

JMO - perhaps you should clarify what your thread is about, I assume it wasn't meant to be an anti-basher thread.

Obviously you were one of those people.

I said this: "Discuss things you like for once, not what you do not like. I am sure the bashers have many things that they liked, and could discuss those just as easily." and then I said this: "Use this thread to discuss how much you liked the battles, how you enjoyed the story, and how, most of all, you wish that Attack of the Clones was not constantly compared to other films!"

That was my intent.

One thing that I think fans have to remember (can they be fans if they don't like the movie?) is that these are George Lucas' movies, not theirs. Because of the fact that it was so long between trilogies, many people did not like The Phantom Menace simply because it was not what they had invisioned as the story of the history. Know what? That's just tough.

One cannot defend a movie against criticism by saying "it's supposed to have that flaw"

What about saying: It is only a flaw if you see it as such? Everyone has different opinions. I don't see any flaws in any of the films that keeps me from enjoying them. It is all a matter of perspective. What is a flaw to one person may be pure brilliance to another.

or "nobody's forcing you to watch it". Those are not defenses; they are merely evasions of the activity of criticial evaluation.

They are nothing but the truth. No one is forcing anyone to watch a movie. If someone doesn't like a movie, they shouldn't watch it over and over again. If someone sees a flaw, either ignore it and enjoy the rest of the film or don't watch it at all if that is such a large problem.

---

Back to the main topic: I loved Attack of the Clones. The first time I saw it I was blown away by it. I had to use the restroom very badly about halfway through, and I sat there and waiting until the final credit had disappeared before getting up.

About two months later I came to these boards, and stayed mostly in the Classic Trilogy area, but posted in the prequels forums from time to time. It wasn't until the Attack of the Clones DVD came out that I really started posting in this forum (which still wasn't a whole lot, really) and I was surprised to see that there was a lot to complain about

 

I really like the love story. I feel it's mcuh better then must of the movies that came out in the late 90's to know. Must of them were about sex, sex, and sex.

Sure some o fit was funny and some was ok. But that's not what I really wanted. AOTC gave me what I wanted.

 

Hopefully we can keep this thread on track and not allow it to turn to a place we cannot go. The key is to recognize the flaws in all the films as well as the good.

 

Like I said, one man's flaw is another man's skillfully executed technique.

 

Star wars isnt about dialogue and bashing it for having bad dialogue is like bashing a chick flick for not having explosions, starwars is a story told through images and music not words

 

I agree with what winter_chili said about STAR WARS.

Money doesn't grow on trees, it grows on my trees

 

JediMasterOusley
Obviously you were one of those people.

One of which people?

g

 

Read the part right above that. One of the people who didn't read what I said the thread was about.

 

What about saying: It is only a flaw if you see it as such? Everyone has different opinions. I don't see any flaws in any of the films that keeps me from enjoying them. It is all a matter of perspective. What is a flaw to one person may be pure brilliance to another.

I don't see any flaws in any of the films that keep me from enjoying them either. I do see a few minor flaws in them. That is all.

I was addressing not the sort of argument that goes "I don't see that particular feature as a flaw" but rather the sort that goes "You shouldn't criticize it for that flaw because it's supposed to have that flaw" or "all criticisms are wrong; the movie is flawless".

They are nothing but the truth. No one is forcing anyone to watch a movie. If someone doesn't like a movie, they shouldn't watch it over and over again. If someone sees a flaw, either ignore it and enjoy the rest of the film or don't watch it at all if that is such a large problem.

I agree, more or less. But my point is that "nobody's forcing you to watch it" is not a critical defense of the movie. If you're not interested in critically analyzing the movie, that's fine. But you can't argue against someone who is engaged in the business of critical evaluation with such lines.

Let me reiterate that I think any flaws in the Star Wars movies are very minor; I love all of them, the prequels as much as the originals. If anything, thinking critically about them has increased my appreciation of them.