Saga People Who Accepted the 6-Film Tragedy Of Darth Vader Saga - What Do You Make Of This?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn, Oct 31, 2012.

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  1. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    Lucasfilm definitely does marginalize the prequels. Or, at the very least, one can say they cater to the OT crowd. Whatever sells I guess.

    It does make me sad, though, that in a video entitled "The Rise, Fall, and Redemption of Anakin Skywalker," so little of it is dedicated to the prequels.

    The video includes 5 minutes (or 300 seconds) of footage. Of that, at most 80 seconds contained footage from the prequels, about 26.7%, although the prequels make up 50% of Anakin's story. AOTC, in particular, gets a measly 12 seconds (4% of the video) although given that it is 1/6 of the Saga, it should get about 16.7%.

    What do you want to do, though? At least we have the films at all.
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  2. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    Funny, Vader was in ANH for less than 15 minutes (although he did make quite an impression).

    The OT crowd has no trouble accepting other products based on the prequels' additions to the universe (that includes KOTOR games). But the prequels don't add any value and must be swept under the rug (I don't mean everyone who loves OT hates the prequels, of course, it's probably a minority, but I've seen this attitude often enough on other forums and it annoys the heck out of me).
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  3. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4

    Lucas is simply being a human being. Nothing more. Nothing less.



    Oh dear God. I was referring to how Darth Maul's character was revived for THE CLONE WARS. I didn't want to see something similar happened to the Anakin/Vader character for the new movies.
    Last edited by DRush76, Nov 1, 2012
  4. Samnz Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 2
    Especially given the fact that Shmi's death is an important part of AOTC and played a major role in Anakin's fall.
    I don't even mind that it only contained 26.7% of prequel movies, but the video completely ignores why he fell and that makes the video's title irrelevant and me dislike the video at all.
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  5. mandragora Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    The point is that whatever happens to a random character like Darth Maul, no matter how stupid it may be, doesn't affect the validity of the six films being "the Darth Vader Saga". What happens to Darth Vader himself, by contrast, does. Hence with respect to the question this thread poses, it's an entirely different matter whether it is Darth Maul who is revived, or Darth Vader.
    Last edited by mandragora, Nov 2, 2012
  6. JEDI-RISING Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 15, 2005
    star 3
    Whether 1-6 is The Tragedy of Darth Vader (really Anakin Skywalker) or the Fall of a Republic....i just can't figure in my mind how the story would go into 7-9 . To me the story is over at 6 basically. You can do more stories (about the same things basically) but those characters and issues are gone really.
    oierem likes this.
  7. ezekiel22x Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2002
    star 4
    Wow, that's lame. Kind of makes me with Lucas could've just keep the prequels for himself and sold everything else if that's how the films are going to be treated.
  8. EHT New Films Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 2007
    star 6
    If they weren't calling the new movie Episode 7 (with 8 and 9 to follow), we wouldn't be referring to these as the Sequel Trilogy. But they are, so it seems the outcome (whether intentional on the part of Lucas, LucasFilm, and Disney or not) will be that the Saga will now be more than 1 through 6. They themselves almost seem to be confirming that it will no longer be "the Tragedy of Darth Vader". Whether it becomes "1 through 9" or "1 through X" (X being the number of the most recent post-9 movie released) remains to be seen. I personally hope that they can bring themselves to stop after 9, as Arawn Fenn said. One more trilogy would be OK, since they are obviously set on making more movies anyway... but to keep going after that just dilutes the whole thing and makes the release of every subsequent SW movie less of an event.

    I grew up with the OT. I was happy with it. But I loved the PT films and I easily adjusted my view to see the Saga as 1 through 6. I also accepted the "Tragedy of Darth Vader" line, although I prefer the "Skywalker Saga" that the OS is apparently using now. But since they're making them anyway, I actually hope that these new movies do fit cohesively into the SW story overall, even if that means the Skywalker Saga just becomes a temporary reference to the OT while the ST is not yet complete. Unlike other franchises mentioned, I think SW is different and I think that when it comes to films (the EU novels, etc. are another matter) they need to all fit together.
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  9. CoolyFett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2003
    star 4
    Yes
  10. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I'm hoping that the films will cover an aspect of the universe removed from the current saga as opposed to any retconning or rebooting what we already had. I'm a little more cautiously optimistic than I was a couple of days ago, but "cautiously" is the operative word.
    Samnz likes this.
  11. oierem Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2009
    star 3
    Which is exactly what Lucas has been saying since 2005 really. And he still doesn't say otherwise (he talks about other people playing with his universe, not about continuing the story).
  12. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    Not necessarily.

    oierem, he did hand over his 7,8,9 treatments. Now we dont know what are in those treatments but everything he said around the time of the OT suggested those treatments centered on the heroes attempting to rebuild the galaxy.
    Last edited by ShaneP, Nov 2, 2012
  13. Mystery Roach Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2004
    star 4
    I love I-VI as the Tragedy of Anakin Skywalker, but I also love the multi-generational aspect of Star Wars. My main hope right now, and the way I choose to interperet the information we've been given, is that VII-IX will be the completion of the Skywalker Saga as a continuation of the same story with one final generation explored, and with Luke and Leia representing the older generation of this trilogy. In the end, Lucas's vision of a Trilogy of Trilogies will be complete, and Lucasfilm will be free to move around at different points in the history of the Galaxy to tell new stories and possibly even create new sagas totally seperate from the Skywalker Saga. At that point I think they will break away from the Roman Numeral system that the films of this particular saga employ, or at the very least start over on a new saga (however, I think that could be deemed too confusing so they will probably just create a new system of identification for further sagas).
    Last edited by Mystery_Roach, Nov 3, 2012
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  14. CoolyFett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2003
    star 4
    Ill never buy into Ep7 if they try to make it a continuation of what happened on Endor.
    oierem likes this.
  15. oierem Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2009
    star 3
    But what treatments are they? The ones for episodes 7-12 as Pollock reported one day? The ones that Lucas has been denying their existence for the last decade?

    If he's talking about old material (rough ideas from the 1970s) they'll probably be outdated and won't be of much use. They can take elements from there, but they wouldn't be proper treatments that would give George a "story by" credit.

    Most probably, he is talking about some new treatments that he has created in the last few months/years.Or even more probably, there are no real treatments at all.

    In any case, they've clearly said that they're creating new stories, they're figuring out what those stories will be.... So they don't have proper treatments yet. And they've also said that Lucas won't be part of the project, that he's not making these movies.

    And that settles it for me. We're not going to see the "missing parts" of the Saga, as some here want to believe. The Saga that was created by George Lucas (that changed and evolved organically) was over in 2005. He managed to tell a complete story from episodes 1 to 6. The story elements that were established in episode 1 were resolved in episode 6 (which was a great feat, considering that the movies were made backwards). Whatever they want to do now, they can't pretend that it's still the same story.
  16. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2009
    star 4
    Much as I would love to believe otherwise, this is exactly what I've been thinking since the announcement.

    It shouldn't matter one way or another, as there will be new writers and directors on board to develop these supposed treatments, except that the typical spin will promote it all being based on what little was developed around 1978/79 - clouding even further what GL actually did have in mind for Eps VII-IX back then.
    oierem likes this.
  17. oierem Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2009
    star 3
    Yeah, the real history of star wars will be even more complicated now!
    A lot of people always wanted to see episodes 7-9 (thinking that the Saga was incomplete because it was "always" meant to be 9 episodes), and now they'l think that they're finally getting them.
  18. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    If it was just Lucas who mentioned the treatments in some interview, I'd be skeptical (he's been known to bend the truth as well as old Ben). However, he said it in the official video in the presence of Kathleen Kennedy and the treatments were also mentioned by Bob Iger. Why would he lie to his shareholders? It would have been much safer to say "we're working with the writers on the new treatments" or something along those lines.

    So I think the treatments do exist and that they have probably figured in the sale of Lucasfilm - after all, Disney is not just interested in the past success, they want to make sure the future looks good, too. Who knows if these treatments have anything to do with what GL had on his mind originally (probably not) and even if they'll survive in the final version of the script (based on how much SW stories changed during the writing phase, again, not likely).
  19. drg4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2005
    star 4
    I'm resigned to the fact that the critics won the battle.

    PT fandom is like third-party voting: heartfelt but incredibly lonely.
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  20. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2009
    star 4
    All GL said in that video was that he has outlines for Eps 7-9 and for some other stories. He doesn't say when he did them, or what they're about - as oirem pointed out, they're most likely very recent.

    But yeah, with a new company on board (and other shareholders), he can't get away with total hogwash, so he must have some story material, even if it was only started this year. George Lucas no longer has complete ownership of Star Wars, there's other people he's accountable to. However, he's stepping away from it all anyway, so I imagine that this latest story material will be the only time he'll ever have to hand anything over.
    (I imagine that he's retained ownership of all his old notes & treatments from the 1970s-1990s anyway, including the notorious ringbinders)
    Last edited by Darth_Nub, Nov 5, 2012
  21. oierem Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2009
    star 3
    Lucas has clearly changed the truth about those treatments (a few years ago they didn't exist)... and in the official video he sort of mumbles about having given the treatments AND all the existing material related to the universe to Kathleen, in a very general way ("I had a bunch of various notes and possible story points and I've given them to Kathleen as a possible basis for the new stories"... that's how I see it).. He's not lying to her, he's just justifying the continuation of the Saga as he has always done: claiming that it's all part of the plan.

    Saying "we're working with the writers on the new treatments" without connecting them to the existing series has a serious risk of people not accepting the new series--- whereas if they present them as parts of the original material from the 1970s these new movies seem more justified (at least according to Lucas, who has always used that idea to present the current version of the saga as the real one).

    And again, my question about the treatments is... what are they? Are they totally new material created a few months ago or is he talking about his old notes from the 1970s? If it's the former, it may be true. But if they pretend to make us believe that its the second option, I'm sorry but I'm not believing that.
    Last edited by oierem, Nov 5, 2012
  22. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    Or being an anarchist, no one understands us ;)

    I blame the fans first. Critics weren't negative (initially, at least). ROTS was better reviewed than Empire or Jedi. It's the Gen-X fans who made it a crusade to lash out against the prequels and GL himself any chance they got.
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  23. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2009
    star 4
    Ugh. That Rotten Tomatoes mentality about just how well the films were reviewed has been well & truly debunked for anyone that can be bothered to look into it. Simple fact of the matter is: "THE INTERNET DIDN'T EXIST BACK IN 1977-1983!!!"

    As for Gen-X lashing out against the prequels, it's only the sad bastards with no lives, who lashed out with such volume that it got noticed, that created the impression that the PT was completely rejected by the fans of the OT. Plenty saw it, didn't like it as much, moved on, and really gave it no more thought. Others, such as myself, saw them, were a bit let down, but accepted them for what they were & continued to be SW fans.
    The doco The People vs George Lucas pretty much illustrated the phenomenon, however unintentionally. Anyone in their late 20s to early 30s, prepared to appear on camera passionately expressing just how much the Prequel Trilogy ruined their lives and still causes them such consternation, can't really blame all their problems on three Star Wars films.
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  24. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me here or not?

    That's what I've been saying all along. If the Web was around in 1983 the same way it was in 1999, ROTJ would have been just as divisive. In fact, if you've seen the archive of the early Internet discussions of ROTJ, they kind of prove my point. The difference between them and, say, AICN, is that everyone posted under their own name (those were the days) and had to be more civil (no "Ewoks raped my childhood" crap).

    And the media love the controversy, don't they?
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  25. Krueger Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2004
    star 4
    Chances are these "treatments" that Lucas has handed over were created quite recently, relatively speaking. It doesn't mean that they are "not Star Wars", as some have made out. I mean, he pretty much made up the prequel trilogy as he went along. Apart from a few story points that had to happen (like the Clone Wars, the eradication of the Jedi, Anakin becoming Vader and so forth) the rest was, for want of a better term, filler. Yes, this version of the ST is obviously not Lucas' original version of the ST, but it’s likely that that "original" version never really had any solidity to it. I was under the impression that it was always just a selection of brain-storming sessions. Nothing more. I think work on these new treatments was probably started about one or two years ago. I doubt they're any more recent than that. It’s likely that this would have been the first time he would have truly sat down and thought properly about "what would have happened after ROTJ?".

    So yeah, I'm sure they'll try and market the new trilogy as being in Lucas' head from the mid seventies, but we all know better. It still doesn’t mean they are not a "proper" ST to the OT, though.
    Last edited by Krueger, Nov 6, 2012
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