Saga People who know alot about star wars please help

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by theimmortaljedi, Nov 7, 2011.

  1. theimmortaljedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2008
    star 1
    Ok so we see inthe clone wars show these clones live and die to protect the jedi over them. Yet we know that in episode 3 they kill them. So my question is do they know that that is ganna be the plan? Or is it a subdued memory that is only awakened by the code being given? I mean I dont even see a hint of disloyalty in these guys. Anyone who can clear this up I wanna thank in advance.
  2. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    They are loyal to the Republic. While the Jedi are their generals, they are loyal to them. Order 66 was put in place along with a lot of other "contingency" plans, just "in case" it came to it.

    As soon as the order was given, the Jedi were no longer their "generals" and were considered enemies of the Republic.

    Hence the Troopers, being loyal to the Republic, carried out their orders without blinking an eye (most of them).
  3. Ord-Mantell70 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 9, 2009
    star 3
    The Clone Army has been designed and ordered by Palpatine for the Republic. He's the real and ultimate head. They will eventually do whatever he orders them to do. No matter they are most of the time under the direct command of the Jedi and serving them. The clones are totally obedient to the head of the Republic.

    How specifically the Jedi-killing instruction functions we do not know, and can only speculate about.

    I think that's the best the way we can explain "Order 66". Although I'll confess it's a tricky issue I had never thought about before. [face_plain]
  4. theimmortaljedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2008
    star 1
    So are they aware of order 66? Or arre they more like sleeper agents? Like hypnotism?
  5. DBrennan3333 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2004
    star 4
    For the writing of AOTC and ROTS, the clone troopers = storm troopers from the OT. They were inspired by Nazi Stormtroopers, literally and were written as child- and clergy-murdering automatons.

    Then the TCW show came along. And now, the clones are modeled after the pop culture interpretation of Allied soldiers in WW2 (read: like 'Saving Private Ryan'), all full of tragically morose masculinity. They are all noble and courageous. There is no indication of any of the genetic engineering discussed in AOTC, and it's impossible to reconcile the tragically-manly-heroic dudes on the cartoon with the murdering automatons of the PT without doing insane retconning somersaults (which TCW's adult fans are more than happy to do in order to make TCW "canon").

    The entire TCW cartoon is, in my personal opinion, clear American militarism propaganda. It goes beyond retconning the clones and extends to the entire war itself. The Clone Wars has been simplified from a staged false flag war into, again, WW2, with the Republic and Jedi playing the part of the Allies. Dooku has gone from a conniving Sith staging a phony war into a literal military leader whose Sith-ness is completely irrelevant (other than getting in lightsaber fights).

    This nullifies virtually all of the political and war components of the entire PT.

    I suspect that this is probably because (a) 9/11 made Americans idolatrous of the military and (b) the people who make the TCW cartoon are presumably neo-cons who love shoveling propaganda at the show's young boy audience, and (c) if you make anything which portrays the U.S. Empire in a negative light (even by metaphor), the media will attack you. (For instance, James Cameron had to go to Europe to get funding for Avatar because Fox refused to finance something that was anti-military, and he was SAVAGELY attacked by the media when the movie came out and they saw that this great movie undermined militarism. Cameron was bullied into multiple apologies and forced to repent for several things he said in this regard.) Therefore, if the TCW cartoon were consistent with the movie and the troops were shown as bullying, murdering, thugs, then George Lucas would be lynched by the American media.

    So, to answer your question, the reason that the TCW shows the troops different than the PT does is because they are created by different people and at different times. George Lucas did NOT have any of this stuff written out when he was making AOTC or ROTS - no Dooku as a one-dimensional simpleton, no Ahsoka, no idiotic plot holes, none of it.

    So, when watching TCW, don't try to reconcile it with the movie just because they're all Lucasfilm Limited products. General Electric makes both nuclear reactors and the TV show '30 Rock', but nobody tries to find some sort of "continuity" between those two products. They're just different moneymaking products from one company. Same with the PT and TCW.

    That's my opinion.
  6. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    I disagree that the clones of ROTS were simply cold killers. Obi-Wan's interaction with Cody for instance reminds me of the movie Brazil when the protagonist's friend has to perform the operation. Cody symbolically hands Obi-Wan his life back to him, only to attempt to take it away a moment later because of an executive order. It's one of the most chilling moments in Star Wars.
    Also, I'm not sure how closely you're following TCW, but seasons 2 and 3 were almost nauseating in their anti-war propaganda.
    TCW has plenty of don't-trust-the-government episodes but the heroes continue to play their part in disaster despite all the evidence. I have a feeling that the clones in future episodes will start to display a surprising lack (loss?) of humanity. That's something that probably will have to be addressed.
  7. DBrennan3333 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2004
    star 4
    First off, I did watch season 2 of TCW, and I don't know what "nauseating anti-war propaganda" you might've seen - other than the occasional token fat dude or female character who issues platitudes of peace only to realize by the end of the episode that the killing of the manly characters is necessary. The most aspirational character of the show - the one most of the young boys who watch it aspire to be - is obviously Anakin, and he's the most pro-war and pro-torture character on the show.

    I mean, I guess it's all in the eye of the beholder, but I have totally different eyes than yours. All the cool male characters are pro-war.

    I think you're kinda-sorta-maybe projecting too much meaning on that snippet of ROTS that you referenced. Again, I don't interpret it like that at all. Anyway, the 'Making of AOTC' book shows that the clones were modeled after Nazis and they were shown cold-bloodedly murdering Aayla, Ki-Adi, countless other Jedi, all the younglings ("Get 'im!"), etc., etc., etc. This is pretty obvious, just like the OP said in his post. Your projections of "regret" in the clones that was nowhere to be found in the movie don't do anybody any good, although they might make your personal viewing experience unique.
  8. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    I never said regret. What I was trying to refer to, is the undeniable sense that Cody and Obi-Wan interact in a friendly matter. As a first-time viewer, it was obvious that they had actually been friends, and it makes Order 66 very scary. I'm not trying to say the clones were regretful at all.

    And when it comes to TCW, it's not so much a matter of the heroes being anti-war as it is ALL the villains being pro-war, and most of the impetus for war being depicted as staged events designed to create division and continue the finance of war.
  9. DarthWolvo23 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2005
    star 4
    TCW are so loosely affiliated with the 6 movie series I doubt they should be discussed in this forum.

    At least if through discussion is confined to TV forum those of us who pretend they don't exist can live on in blissful ignorance.
  10. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2009
    star 4
    Orders are orders. That's the military. Even in the real world, if a general orders a squad to execute their captain, they have to do it, regardless of what they believe. The general may have to answer questions from his superiors later, but the soldiers aren't the ones meant to be asking questions, certainly not at the time the order is given. It's called the chain of command.

    The clonetroopers are also established as basically being organic robots anyway, disobeying an order from the Supreme Commander simply wasn't an option, regardless of whatever individuality & personalities they might have developed.
  11. DarthPhilosopher Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2011
    star 4
    This is incorrect. The Imperial Stormtroopers were based on Nazi Stormtroopers. The Clone Troopers were based off typical soldiers. In fact, if you want to align to the topic to Nazi Germany, I would argue the Clone Troopers are WW1 German troopers (not ?automations? and, in reality, not all that different from the typical Allied soldier). Only during the rise of Nazi Germany were troopers ? specifically the Stormtroopers and SS (the other German troopers were not always as ?radical? as is stereotyped) ? indoctrinated to be ?automations?. The Clone Troopers are soldiers prior to radicalism. Order 66, I would argue, represents the moment when a soldier transforms into an automation (when they blindly follow an order) - in the case of the clones it doesn't seem it was necessarily their choice in the matter.

    Retconning? It has always been the case that the Clone Troopers were not ?automations?, but were rather moral and noble soldiers. If these were just ?biological droids? why would they laugh with the Jedi and why would the Jedi care for these soldiers? That was a core aspect of ROTS. If anything Order 66 was meant to be an activation code ? doesn?t mean they wouldn?t be ?noble and courageous? previously. Your argument is contradictory.

    Obviously you have never seen Heroes on Both Sides. It is very clearly not World War II. The military?s perhaps align with this ?black and white? perspective but not the governments. Besides how is the Confederate military being evil and the Republic military being good any different than the films?

    No it doesn?t. The politics of the war are the same. The militaries of the war are the same. What is different?

    Firstly ROTS illustrat
  12. theimmortaljedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2008
    star 1
    wow! so though no real clear answer i must say I am so enjoying the post. Clearly we some star wars fans with high IQ's. Thanks fore taking so much time and thought to share with me what your idea of it is!!
  13. CT-867-5309 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    Typical soldiers are cloned and roll off an assembly line? Typical soldiers are genetically altered? Typical soldiers are trained since birth? Come on.

    Here's an interesting contrast between typical soldiers and clone troopers.....clone troopers don't have mothers.

    Remember that line in Saving Private Ryan?

    Medic Wade: Reiben, think about the poor bastard's mother.
    Private Reiben: Hey, Doc, I got a mother, all right? I mean, you got a mother. Sarge's got a mother. I mean, ****, I bet even the captain's got a mother.
    [he turns and looks at Miller, who has a bemused expression on his face]
    Private Reiben: Well, maybe not the captain, but the rest of us got mothers.

    That was the whole point of the mission, to spare Mrs Ryan the pain of losing yet another son. Well, the clones don't have mothers to mourn them.

    There's a reason Lucas used clones and not a conscripted army of "normal" soldiers. There's a reason the mention of "Clone Wars" in ANH provoked the reaction it did.



    Okay, when in the movies did the clone troopers even have a chance to show morality? The only thing the clone troopers say is "Yes, sir" or variations. They obey all orders without question or hesitation, including stabbing their superiors and supposed friends in the back in the most ruthless ways possible. They march into a Temple and kill children. At no point do the clones talk among themselves, questioning whether or not Order 66 is right.

    There's no remorse, not even a hint of an apology, only silent assassination. Just about all the execution scenes during Order 66 involve clones sneaking up on Jedi and shooting them from behind, with the Jedi caught completely unaware. There is no last words, no mercy.

    I'm pretty sure Lucas did this intentionally.


    When did this happen? You mean Cody's "when have I ever let you down"? In the movies, I believe Cody is the only clone with a name, and yet, even the most humanized clone does not hesitate to shoot his "friend" in the back. He even goes out of his way to make sure he is dead. I think there's something to that.

    Why would Jedi care? Come on. Jedi care for all life, remember?

    I'm not sure how respectable and courageous contradict the idea that they are automatons.

    Again with courage, what does that have to do with anything? In fact, it's much easier for an automaton to appear courageous.

    Like what? Can you be more specific?

    They don't give us a clear answer in the movies. TCW is doing their own thing, so if that's what you're interested in I'd suggest just waiting to see what TCW has to say on the matter.
  14. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    The clone's biggest flaw is that they are obedient. Aside from being grown and growth-accelerated, they were built to follow orders. They were probably not necessary programmed with the specific order, but made to memorize specific orders and what to do.
  15. DBrennan3333 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2004
    star 4
    First off, DarthPhilosopher, I'd appreciate it if you'd quit barking your declarative statements. It's rude and insulting. You're doing so much barking that you should probably just start all of your sentences with, "Hark!" or "Lo". As in, "Hark! The Clone Wars is the greatest cartoon ever and I love prostrating myself before the military!" "Lo, the clones were crying in ROTS as they murdered the children, you just couldn't see it!"

    Second off, since you love making declarative statements so much, I'll go ahead and declare a few things on my own.

    The clone troopers were modeled after Nazis. This is obvious from watching the movies, but here it is, anyway.

    [image=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/DBrennan3333/AOTC.png]

    Thanks for making your bogus declaration, though.

    You wrote, "Obviously you have never seen 'Heroes on Both Sides'. It is very clearly not World War II."

    Obviously, you didn't read my post. It was very clearly talking about the TCW cartoon, not the great Revenge of the Sith movie.

    You also wrote, "Firstly ROTS illustrated very clearly that these were not automations but were rather the respectable and courageous soldiers. Secondly I don?t understand your stark anti-military and conspiracy theorist notions. The military and the soldiers who fight in war deserve to be respected and honoured. Also your opinion of a ?US Empire? is irrelevant ? the show illustrates soldiers as honourable which, in any case, they are. Even if you are against a supposed ?US Empire? that is completely besides the fact of respecting soldiers and servicemen. A soldier is not the government."

    You "honor" and prostrate yourself before who you want to. Don't go prancing around ordering other dudes to prostrate themselves before government workers just because you enjoy doing so. Second off, the US has bases in over 150 million countries and is at war in, like....Colombia, Iraq, Yemen, Afghanistan, Pakistan, probably a few dozen others and over 3% of our population is employed by the military. If that's not an empire, then there's no such thing as an empire and we should just ban the word. The U.S. is an empire.

    Since you loved the clones and think they were "respectable" and "courageous". Here you go, chief!

    [image=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/DBrennan3333/MurderingTroops.png]

    Finally, I know a hell of a lot about the production and media response of 'Avatar'. Please don't talk to me about that unless you know what you're talking about.
  16. DBrennan3333 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2004
    star 4
    I think this is the case.

    Unless we have some of those morons who are going to be arguing about TCW that, "This was Lucas's original vision" (and, yeah, there are people who say things like that at the TCW forum!) the cartoon doesn't have anything to do with the movies. Like I said before, General Electric makes nuclear reactors and '30 Rock', but no fans of '30 Rock' feel obligated to find "consistency" between these two products. Nor should fans of two totally different entities - the SW movies and the TCW cartoon - feel obligated to find consistency (as in, retCONs) between these separate products.
  17. Thegoat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2004
    star 1
    o_O I have never seen the show, but I find this statement absurd. What stake does Lucasfilm have in the U.S. military? I highly doubt that the clones were humanized in the show to perpetuate some militaristic war-mongering sentiment among our nations adolescents. More likely, they were given more interesting personalities to make the show more interesting to watch, to make the characters more endearing, and to make the drama more compelling. A more engaging viewing experience leads to more ratings, which leads to more money for LFL, which leads to the writers keeping their jobs. How many kids would want to watch 100 episodes of a cartoon centered on soulless, identical automatons? As for the troops resembling Allied soldiers, the writers are likely just fans of Saving Private Ryan and similar films and are emulating those characters. I don't have any specifics for you, but I am sure that the number of pro-America World War II films made since the 1939 is staggering. They probably draw from the genre for inspiration and because it's familiar to viewers. You are really reaching for reasons to hate the show and its fans.


    TCW and Star Wars are both visual entertainment media that utilize the same universe and characters. A more accurate analogy would be Angel and Buffy the Vampire Slayer (movie and show) or any of the countless movie/TV/video game/comic book spin-offs that happen within any popular franchise.
  18. theimmortaljedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2008
    star 1
    I enjoy the films and the show. I still wonder if they where aware of order 66 or if it was hidden. Like a sleeper agent awoken with a key command or somthing. Almost part of there dna. So they hear the command and now they are somthing diffrent.
  19. DBrennan3333 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2004
    star 4
    You've never seen the show....and then you go and tell me all about the show. Cool, dude.

    Look, you admit you're ignorant on the subject matter, so just don't talk about it. Thanks.
    GE's nuclear reactors and the TV show '30 Rock' are disparate objects which both happened to be created by the same corporate entity. The same thing goes with the TCW cartoon and the SW movies.

    I don't know anything about Buffy the Vampire Slayer, but I'm willing to bet that their writers and creators aren't telling everybody that there was an "original vision" and that everything was planned in advance. When a character is suddenly revealed as a bad guy after 20 episodes or a character is suddenly bestowed with magical powers, I'm sure that the writers will go right ahead and say, "Yeah, this was just something we thought would be cool." Conversely, I saw a Steven Stansweet presentation at Wizard World in Chicago about the TCW cartoon and he was carrying on about how this-and-that were, "Finally going to be revealed." The Mandalorians were "finally going to be explained". The entire presentation was riddled with statements and/or implications that the TCW cartoon was all part of some "vision" of Lucas's, when it was obviously and demonstratively not.

    The pretense of a master plan and inter-media consistency separates Star Wars from virtually all other meta-fiction.

    This was why the OP wrote his post in the first place. He was confused by the obvious inconsistencies. Telling him, "You're wrong. The cartoon and the movies are the same." is bogus on its face and doesn't do anybody any good.
  20. drg4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2005
    star 4
    I have zero interest in the cartoon, but my impression is informed by a simple ROTS exchange...

    ?Commander Cody, the time has come. Execute Order 66.?
    ?Yes, my Lord.?

    No hesitation. And there wouldn't be, as Cody is bereft of a genuine personality.

    If Star Wars is to be read on a symbolic level, it would follow that the Clones serve as analogues to Palpatine himself, in that their veneer of courage?-amiability, even-?masks sheer emptiness and evil. In essence: They're pre-programmed actors, delivering worthy performances to a cadre of spiritually-obtuse monks.
  21. DBrennan3333 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2004
    star 4
    Not for long! I'm sure that the effeminate slime-o's that run TCW (and when I say "effeminate", that's, uh, precisely what I mean, if you catch my drift) are busily working on a retcon for this. There's inevitably going to be this revised shot:

    The clones stand over the corpse of Ki-Adi, who they just slayed in cold blood. But wait! Now, suddenly, the clones are taking off their helmets and hanging their heads in morose contemplation and sadness of everything that's transpired.

    CLONE LEADER: For-.... Forgive me, Master Jedi. You were a great general. Clones! Salute our fallen general!

    One by one, the clones remove their helmets. They, too, are all filled with Tragi-Manly-Sadness (the cliche` crap you see in every single modern war movie where the soldier is shown silhouetted, hanging his head in a private sadness that we hadn't realized he possessed.)

    The camera will then slowly truck PAN OUT to show them all forming a circle honoring....the same dude they just shot in the back.


    I absolutely, 100% GUARANTEE that this sort of evil retcon bullcrap is being planned out right now.
  22. DarthPhilosopher Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2011
    star 4
    Well this is hypocritical isn?t it? No offense however ?declarative statements? seem to consist all of your posts. In fact I would argue your statements aren?t just ?declarative? but are condescending. Are mine declarative and condescending? I guess if you think they are then they are ? my apologies since that wasn?t my intent. However don?t go name-calling when you yourself act in the same manner.

    That doesn?t back up your point in my opinion. Obviously the final scene of AOTC was based off Nuremburg Rallies and other such militarist processions. That?s not my point however. All that does is symbolise militarism ? it doesn?t mean that the troopers themselves are meant to be evil automations.

    And obviously you haven?t seen the cartoon. Heroes on Both Sides is an episode.

    Firstly there is no our ? I?m not an American. Secondly you obviously missed by point. I said your opinions of a ?US Empire? are irrelavent ? just because you don?t support a government does not mean that military servicemen are somehow all ?Nazi Stormtroopers?. I think this is disrespectful to servicemen and women.

    I?m talking about prior to Order 66. I stated that Order 66 symbolised the moment soldiers are transformed into, for lack of a better term, ?Nazi Stormtroopers?. If they weren?t ?respectable and honourable? prior to Order 66 why would the Jedi consider them friends and care for them ? furthermore why would the Jedi lead them?

  23. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    This. The clones being portrayed in a "heroic" light in TCW is no different from their portrayal on Geonosis in AOTC. That's because in both of these cases the Republic and the Jedi are on the same side.

    But if a scene's being inspired by Nazi-related imagery is an indication that characters are in fact evil...
    Houston, I think we have a problem:
    [image=http://comm2302.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/epiv_throne_room.jpg]

    So you can "absolutely 100% guarantee" that the TCW series plans to redo Order 66?

    "Whenever you gamble, my friend, eventually you'll lose." - Qui-Gon Jinn
  24. DarthPhilosopher Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2011
    star 4
    That's an excellent point:

    [image=http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-xiwg_UeHZVY/Tcip4613myI/AAAAAAAAAxU/uoBkjL9_jp0/s1600/triumphofthewill.jpg]

    I guess the Rebels are Nazi's now ;)
  25. shanerjedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2010
    star 4
    DBrennan and Darth Philosopher, please keep it civil.

    No reason to be rude with one another.

    And keep the CW show out of the discussion as much as possible.