Saga People who know alot about star wars please help

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by theimmortaljedi, Nov 7, 2011.

  1. DBrennan3333 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2004
    star 4
    Yeah, the clones in AOTC marched like Nazis to the tune of the Imperial March because, ya know, that's the way Lucas tells us, "These are the good guys." It's a new wave of filmmaking style. Mexican filmmakers call it, El Misleado de Audienco pointlessly.

    It's great that the mainstream media commands everybody to think that the end of SW was modeled after Nazis. The thing of it is, (a) Lucas flatly said that's wrong and (b) maybe it's being read into too much?

    [image=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/DBrennan3333/SW-TriumphOfTheWedding.gif]

    Are you saying that Lucas was subliminally saying that Luke, Han, and Chewie were having a gay, polygamous marriage ceremony, too?

    So! What do we know for sure? First, we know that the clones were modeled after Nazis. Next, we know that they marched to the Star Wars saga's definitive anthem of evil. Third, we know that the mainstream media says some stupid crap about a shot in ANH. Third, we know that some people believe everything the mainstream media says.

    Finally, we know that some people can look at 2+2 and say that the answer is 5.

    Here's some more shot of your guys's heroes in action. See, this is the behavior of HEROES in El Misleado de Audienco pointlessly:

    [image=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/DBrennan3333/ROTS.png]
  2. DBrennan3333 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2004
    star 4
    Just to get back to square one: the OP was clearly confused at the dichotomy between the heroic troops in TCW and the Nazi-like murdering troops in the PT.

    He was asking how to reconcile these two things.

    The only honest answer that can be given is that they can't be reconciled because the clones of the movies are different than the clones of the TV show. Thus, retcons are necessary to reconcile them. Therefore, all the explanations given are just retcons. None of this was planned when the movies were made. The clones changed from the PT to the cartoon, just the same as Boba Fett changed from ESB to the EU.
  3. DarthPhilosopher Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2011
    star 4
    By that definition Allied troops marched like Nazi?s. The Clones didn?t goose step?

    Why does that immediately reflect upon the characters themselves. You are immediately assuming that Lucas intended to symbolically illustrate the clones as being Nazis, whilst all the representations you note could symbolise militarism.

    Firstly when was it denied by Lucas? And secondly how is this ?reading into it too much?? Lucas has stated that the Prequels, specifically, are based upon Nazi Germany, while the Imperials of the OT likewise are.

    Which was made first?

    Also the shot of the ?Triumph of the Will? aligns in both context and cinematography.

    Why know the precession was modelled after a Nuremburg Rally, not the clones. Is Bail Organa also a Nazi since he was with Palpatine during the scene.

    Militarism and foundations of the Empire. Doesn?t necessarily mean the clones are evil. The Imperial theme was played when people talked of Anakin ? doesn?t mean that Anakin, at that moment, was evil.

    In your opinion.

    Thanks for being rude once again.

    Not necessary.

    After they were Imperial Stormtroopers and Order 66 has been activated. This doesn?t support your argument.

    Only ?honest? answer? Because obviously all my opinions are invalid?

    Again, if these people were drones with no morality wouldn?t you think the Jedi would refuse to lead the army or would not have been allied with them? If these were evil troops throughout the war why would the Jedi lead them?
  4. DBrennan3333 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2004
    star 4
    Your

    posting

    strategy

    is

    really

    annoying.
  5. Thegoat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2004
    star 1
    Your post has absolutely nothing to do with the content of the show. The "subject matter" is your unsubstantiated, off-the-wall claim that cartoon show writers are conspiring to promote some political agenda at the expense of their show's quality. You are as ignorant as I am as to the secret motivations of a group of strangers, and you're making wild accusations with absolutely no support other than your own baseless paranoia. My own speculations as to why the clonetroopers differ between the show and the movie derive from rational motivations by the writers (popularity and profit) and reflect past practices of the corporation in question (paying homage/drawing inspiration from unrelated films with similar theme and content).

    I never said that the cartoon and the movies are the same. I pointed out that your analogy is bogus because it compares a refrigerator to a TV show and tries to equate it to a movie and its TV spin-off. Also, when has Lucasfilm claimed that the Clone Wars represented Lucas' original vision? The presentation "implied" it? That's your opinion, but it simply sounds like a publicity piece to promote, as you pointed out, another Lucasfilm product. Why do you take sch personal offense to this? The Expanded Universe is exactly that. Ignore it if you don't like it, and save your outrage until they digitally insert Ashoka into ROTS.
  6. DBrennan3333 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2004
    star 4
    Just so that we can put this idiotic argument to rest....

    Your argument is that the characters who (a) murdered children, (b) shot women in the back, (c) murdered clergy, (d) were introduced with dark, creepy music, (e) had their hero shot modeled after Nazi rallies, (f) were shown most prominently marching to the Imperial March....

    ....That these were intended to be good guys. I gotcha. So your point should just be, "You're wrong. There are no differences between TCW and the PT."

  7. DBrennan3333 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2004
    star 4
    Good thing the re-release of TPM is gonna flop otherwise I really would have to be outraged!

    After all....(Angry Video Game Nerd)
  8. Thegoat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2004
    star 1
    And you think Lucas is afraid of being attacked by the media? [face_mischief]
  9. DBrennan3333 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2004
    star 4
    Whoa! I didn't know that George Lucas didn't care about his reputation! Thanks for saying this and then backing it up with all that evidence....of a smiley GIF. Yep, your smiley face sure settles everything!

    Do I think Lucas is afraid of being seriously attacked by the media? I'll bet your life on it. (And media reporting of harmless fanboy insults about changes to the OT only serve to increase the attention and sales he receives - they don't harm them, that's for certain. The military is, in the past decade, the most sacred of all Sacred Cows in the history of the U.S. Lucas would NEVER bring that kind of heat down upon his company - or himself.)
  10. DarthPhilosopher Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2011
    star 4
    Anakin Skywalker was also a hero. He also did those things. After he fell to the Dark Side. It?s the same in regards to the clones. All the instances you cite occurred after Order 66 ? or when the clones, metaphorically, ?fell to the dark side?. By your logic Anakin Skywalker was also never a hero. That would like me saying Anakin Skywalker was a terrible, terrible and evil person who was never a hero ? yet only citing his actions when he was Darth Vader. He was, likewise, introduced with undertones of the Imperial March.

    Really? That?s the only argument you could formulate? It is clear you have resorted to petty insults.
  11. DarthPhilosopher Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2011
    star 4
    DBrennan3333, if you are to continue this debate at least do it civilly without insults or being unnecessarily rude, as a moderator has already stated to both of us. I don?t really care about a heated and stubborn discussion on both our parts; however don?t start individually insulting someone with snide and belittling remarks. Much appreciated.

    Thanks.
  12. Nordom Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2004
    star 4
    About the clones,

    We know they are less independent than regular humans and are totally obidient and will follow ANY order without question.

    So can they really be brave? To show bravery you must have the option of running away.
    I would argue that the clones do not have this possibility. If they are told to charge then they will do so, regardless of the odds. A clone could never run away, could never defect or refuse an order. If they are ordered to slaugther babies, the will do so. If they are ordered to kill themselves, they will do so. They can have no loyalty, they only follow orders.

    Can they be honorable? Only if their orders allow them. If they are told to shoot unarmed civilians they will do so without hesitation or question.

    So right from the start the clone trooper are like Nazis soldiers in that they will do ANYTHING that they are ordered to do. That the "evil" order comes late does not change the fact that Palpatine could have done this at any time.
    Lastly, from RotS it did seem like the clones knew about order 66 and were just waiting for the order. Only the clone commanders hear the order and they just nod to the others and they know imideatly what to do. It even seems like the clone troopers knew that Palpatine was a Sith becasue they used his Sidious title of "Lord" and not "chancellor".

    Regards
    Nordom
  13. Thegoat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2004
    star 1
    Here's a few more for you: :confused: :oops::rolleyes:[face_not_talking]

    DBrennan, your posts provide zero evidence as well. The Star Wars prequels are very critical of military reliance and of war in general. Why would they suddenly be so intimidated by the "media" that they shy away from those same themes with their cartoon show, which will be seen by far less people than the films? It makes much more sense that they are trying to provide engaging entertainment than your, again, unsubstantiated accusations of propaganda promotion.


    This. It's a Star Wars forum, not a place to take out your rage. There is no need to act with the hostility and condescension that you repeatedly demonstrate just because somebody challenges your opinion.
  14. Darth_Monkey_Boy Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 2008
    I remember hearing, or maybe I read it somewhere, that the show was supposed to be a satire of the propaganda WWII films. It's why we have the announcer at the beginning of every episode- it's the same as the ones they had at the beginning of their news reels back then. I do believe that TCW is supposed to be something Palpatine puts out to the Republic citizens to gain more support. I could be wrong, but I find it a fun way to look at the TCW show.
  15. Jedi_Ford_Prefect Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2003
    star 4
    This is what I would say, and I'd say this is true of the whole SW series itself. Granted, it's a milder form of satire than, say, Verhoven's Starship Troopers, and it's definitely reveling in the war-movie archetypes and action quite a bit, having its cake and eating it too (Verhoven's movie does this as well). For the most part, TCW is really just an extended exercise of the hiding-in-plain-sight irony that AOTC and ROTS practiced in the films, having the Jedi Knights fight alongside obvious Stormtrooper analogues cloned from a bounty hunter named Fett-- with pop iconography as deeply embedded in the culture as SW, you can afford to just let the absurdity of established good guys fighting alongside established bad guys speak for itself.

    Anyway. One thing I rather like about TCW from a moral perspective is how it puts a human face on the clones, as even in ATOC and ROTS it's kind of easy to lose sight of the fact that their very existence is something of a crime against common decency in and of itself. We're all wringing our hands on the moral issues of how responsible the clones are for gunning down the Jedi during Order 66, whether they were pre-programmed, or fully cognizant of their actions. But there's no question that the Jedi knew full well what they were getting into by consenting to the use of the Clone Armies. They knew that they were signing up to lead living beings that had been bred for the express purpose of fighting and dying for the Republic. There's something fairly monstrous about that, isn't there? The wholesale murder of genetically engineered cannon fodder?
  16. drg4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2005
    star 4
    But they're not human; they're manufactured. Accordingly, how could there be a fall from grace, when the Clones were created by the Sith for the express purpose of ushering in totalitarianism?

    Just as Threepio could only be a benevolent chatterbox?-as per little Anakin's motivation?-Palpatine's toy soldiers could only be veiled-villains.
  17. Jedi_Ford_Prefect Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2003
    star 4
    The drugged-up baldies of THX 1138 are just as manufactured as the clones. The Nexus-6 Replicants of Blade Runner are, as well. The films don't dwell on it, but they're every bit the same kind of victims of this dystopia.
  18. DarthPhilosopher Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2011
    star 4
    They are human ? they are merely cloned humans.

    The Clones were created by the Jedi (Sifo-Dyas), which the Sith subsequently utilised to eliminate them. The ?fall from grace? could originate from the activation of ?Order 66? and the corruption by the Sith.

    Not necessarily. If they are mindless, as you say, and the Jedi gave the order to execute the Chancellor, they would do so. As such their dependent upon whom they are being commanded by and which orders they have been given ? so they have the potential to be both heroes and villains. While they are serving under the Jedi (throughout the majority of the war) it can be assumed they would reflect the Jedi?s view on life and as such their morality ? when the Chancellor orders the Jedi to be eliminated obviously they are going to reflect his personality and ?morality?.

    The ultimate point is however that TCW does not contradict the films in any way. If we are to assume that the clones follow orders without question this is exemplified by Rex who says he serves the Republic even though he doesn?t necessarily know why ? ?it?s just what I believe?. The personalities they have are merely a reflection of the Jedi?s command and morality, which is eliminated when Order 66 is given. The Jedi ?order? independence and acknowledgement of their individuality and as such they have distinct personalities ? you could argue the Jedi?s influence is eliminating their pre-programed nature. The other instances of clone betraying or leaving the military can be assumed to be defects in the cloning process (a reasonable assumption as these instances are represented as distinct from the typical clones) or it is the natural progression of life and the Jedi?s influence ?eroding? their programming (after a while any sapient being ? meaning human ? will develop their own opinions and free will despite their pre-programming).
  19. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    Finally, we're getting to the heart of the matter. TCW and the SW films actually blur the difference between clone/droid and alien/human people. We can be just as cold and mechanical as the clones or droids. It's no mistake Anakin, the saga's main character is born without a father into servitude, much like THX-1138 or the clones of Kamino.
    The droids of Star Wars explicitly feel pain, and the clones of The Clone Wars also have their own personalities and feelings. We are supposed to identify with those characters, because their stories are supposed to reflect our own decisions/lives.

    But let's suppose that a couple seasons from now, Order 66 is depicted as something the clones were reluctant to do. After the deed is done, what do they do? Do they commit suicide like Judas? Do they start the beginnings of the rebellion? Or do they just go home and geek out about that new T-16?

    I think its better to ask those questions, to consider the people inside the helmets, instead of just seeing them as Nazi stereotypes. The first time I saw ROTS, when those troopers turned on the Jedi, I saw quite literally my friends and family, not subhuman born-killers. Clone troopers are the metaphorical status quo who would eliminate anything different, especially if given an order by an authority figure. That's the message that Lucas is trying to get across, I suspect.
  20. drg4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2005
    star 4
    Whom amongst these toy soldiers serves as the THX-1138 or LUH-3417 representation, then? I can't find him.

    Would Commander Cody deliver the "Tears in Rain" fare thee well, after ordering the hit on Obi-Wan? Doubt it.

    The macro-tragedy of the PT is not rooted in the exploitation of slave soldiers, but rather in the willingness of spirit-men and idealistic politicos to hand their galaxy over to the ersatz and false. Consequently, they pay the price for their lack of vision.
  21. Jedi_Ford_Prefect Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2003
    star 4
    Yeah, by humanizing the clones, Order 66 becomes a spin on Milgram's experiments. "We do what we're told". That's the really nasty trick of TCW-- by encouraging us to identify with the clones, it forces us to ask what preconcieved truths we blindly take. For kids, that's a very cool little bit of subversion. Granted, it's not quite on the level of Avatar: The Last Airbender or Neon Genesis Evangelion (supposing that one ever was for kids, in the first place), but it's got a mad wit to it.

    And very nice catch with the connection to Anakin as a fatherless son, and how it turns his immaculate conception into something less divine and more a big act of Sith mad science. One might even wonder, now, if he really is just an experiment by Plagueis or Sidious with midichlorians, if he was ever really "free" as well. Perhaps they "programmed" him in their subtle manipulation of the Force. Very nice catch, indeed.


    The jury's still out on Captain Rex. The two big questions about characters' fates on TCW are him and Ashoka, and I wouldn't be surprised if he winds up standing by her side when Order 66 is given out. And given the way they've developed his character, there's at least a chance he might refuse the command. "The Deserter", especially, feels like it's addressing that question, and the current arc on the show, where the 501st is put under the command of a Jedi General who's almost asking for a mutiny.
  22. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    More often than not these days, I see young Anakin in Episode I as deceptively innocent. The main thing that worries me about Anakin is that he actually *WANTS* to be a Jedi.
    To me, that's almost a recipe for a Sith in itself.
  23. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Where?

    The clones are fundamentally neither "heroes" nor "villains". They are fundamentally amoral. They are loyal to the Republic. Thus, when the Republic and the Jedi are still on the same side, they appear "heroic"; when the Republic has become the Empire, they appear "villainous".

    I think you mean "the Nazi-like murdering troops from the portion of ROTS that follows Order 66". Otherwise you're conveniently leaving out the rescue of the High Council on Geonosis, the rushing to the aid of Padme, the role played in the Battle of Coruscant, the camaraderie with Obi-Wan and the subsequent attack on Grievous' forces - everything that contradicts your premise.

    There isn't anything particularly Nazi-like to the way they're marching in the scene where the Imperial March was used. They're getting on a spaceship. That requires moving forward.
  24. DarthPhilosopher Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2011
    star 4
    I think this is the heart of it. The clones are neither ?heroes? nor ?villains? but rather are a reflection of those who lead them. In this way, as I said, when they are being led by the Jedi they are encouraged to be individual and have personalities ? as such that is the representation of them in TCW. They seem heroic, individual and respectable since the orders they are being given reflect that. Only when they are under the command of evil do they appear to be villains ? since they reflect that command.

    Consider the German military ? under the command of the Nazis they were the villains as they invaded foreign countries and plunged Europe into war. However consider, if the German military had aligned with the Allies and helped force the Soviets out of Europe (Operation Unthinkable), they would have been considered the ?heroes?. It is always a reflection of who is commanding the military.

    The problem with the clones is that they haven?t fully developed independent morals (I believe, if the Jedi had continued to lead them, these would have been developed). The reason for this is because is because they are both programmed and they haven?t learnt morals (since they were never taught anything but to follow orders). While a common naturally born human has a sense of morality, etc, the clones don?t have this. So while a moral person could refuse an unjust order the clones are unable to since they don?t/can?t decide whether an order is moral. Ultimately however any biological lifeform (and indeed perhaps droid), no matter their programming, is a sum of their experiences and as such these would inevitably be created over time. I am sure R2 and 3PO have morality yet they are literally ?programmed?.

    However all of this is irrelevant since the topic being discussed is whether TCW is contrary to the films. As Arawn said there were many instances in the films where the clones acted in just the same way as any of the clones do in TCW. The series even establishes that the clones, while they are ?heroic? because of the Jedi, follow orders and don?t know exactly why. In the instance of clones like Rex and Fives they are naturally a reflection of their commander ? Anakin Skywalker ? who is very independent (that is why they are unique and rebellious).
  25. Nordom Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2004
    star 4
    One difference with the nexus 6 replicants is that they have the potential to rebel and refuse orders, so they can have free will. From what the movies show, the clones do not have this potential.

    Regards
    Nordom