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Saga People who know alot about star wars please help

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by theimmortaljedi, Nov 7, 2011.

  1. DarthPhilosopher Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2011
    star 4
    They don?t have free will yet. The films illustrate that everything ? programmed or not programmed ? is a sum of his, her or its experiences. I would argue R2 and 3PO very clearly have free will yet they are very obviously programmed.
  2. Nordom Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2004
    star 4
    Not quite, their DNA has been tampered with and they are made to be less than human.
    They lack free will and will do whatever they are told to do. So their origin was human but they have been made into something less than human.
    The replicants on Blade Runner had a non-human origin but were made so good that they became human. In some ways they are more human than humans.
    The replicants CAN rebel, the clones can not.

    No the clones would not kill the chancellor as he has a higher rank than the jedi. The chancellor can order the clones to kill the jedi but not the other way around as he is higher up in the chain of command. Howewer as soon as he is no longer chancellor then the clones could kill him if so ordered.

    First, based on what the films show us, the involvement of Sifo-Dyas is very much in doubt and it is more likely that the clones were made by the Sith.
    Second a "fall from grace" to me has to involve a choice of some kind. That there is a chance, no matter how small, that the person or persons could not do this evil act.
    As far as the movies go, the clones have no option but to follow orders and they most likely do not reflect if their orders are good or bad, they just follow them.
    If a gun has been used by a hero and then is taken by a villain and is used to shoot children, has this gun "fallen from grace"? The clones are in many ways like a weapon, they only do what their masters tell them and can not refuse. They have no morality of their own, if their masters are benevolent then they seem good, if their masters are malevolent then they seem bad. But they are neither, anymore than a gun is good or evil.

    Regards
    Nordom
  3. DarthPhilosopher Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2011
    star 4
    I wouldn?t say they are not humans however. Non-humans wouldn?t have personality nor could they think creatively. Thus why one could argue a droid like R2 is everything ?human? in terms of ?soul?.

    Depends wholly on the contingency plan. Just because someone is the Head of Government does not make him immune to impeachment. Unless there was a specific pre-programmed order which declared the Chancellor was immune to any contingency plan the clones would very likely follow orders to execute him. If the clones had received orders from the Jedi and the Senate then I am sure they would have followed orders.

    Conceded.

    Well I would call a fall from grace a fall from heroism. I don?t think an choice is implied but rather a fall from a certain standing.

    Except they clearly have morality, albeit confined. A gun wouldn?t ask ?are you alright?. Furthermore I don?t think they are completely without free will, but rather that this free will can be overridden. I would argue creative thinking requires free will ? without free will a clone wouldn?t be able to do anything without an order.
  4. EHT New Films Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 2007
    star 6
    Beware of the troll in this thread. ;)

    Anyway, I agree with most of DarthPhilosopher and Arawn_Fenn's points in here.

    There are plenty of things I don't like about TCW, but the portrayal of the clone troopers is not one of them. There is nothing inconsistent between the PT and TCW with regards to the clone troopers; TCW simply has a lot more time to delve into their personalities, thoughts, reactions, etc. It is a deeper revelation of the same character types. The change from "heroic" to "evil" only comes with Order 66; to say that they are shown as Nazi stereotypes before Order 66 is just not accurate at all. TCW shows them as heroes for the same reason that AOTC and ROTS show them as heroes before Order 66; the Republic is presented to us as the "good guys". Once the Republic becomes the Empire and the clone troopers become Imperial stormtroopers, they can't be seen as heroes anymore. So Order 66 is a huge turning point in the Saga, obviously, but for the clone troopers it was simply a very important test of their commitment to following orders given by the ultimate point (the chancellor) in their chain of command, when the generals between them and that point have been designated as traitors and enemies of the Republic.
  5. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    We know from AOTC that the Sith were involved before the first clone was produced. But that does not mean Sifo was never involved.
  6. Nordom Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2004
    star 4

    Well take R2 and the restraining bolt he had in ANH. That made it IMPOSSIBLE for him to run away. He could want to run away as much as he could but he physically could not do it. If the clones have a similar "restraining bolt" that makes free will impossible then they will lack it untill this "bolt" is removed.

    About the clones, this will depend on what was done to them to make them more docile and easy to control. It is said that the clone have had their genetic structure modified, their DNA essentially. If the absence of free will is due to this then it does not really matter how much the clones learn or grow. The DNA of a living being does not really change much as it grows older. When DNA is altered, through radiation, chemicals or whatever, the result is often not good, most likely you get cancer.
    So if the lack of free will is due to the modification of their DNA then experience will not give it to them as their DNA is not changed. The only way they could get it is if their DNA is modified again. Like in Blade Runner, the replicants had a four year lifespan built into their DNA. And this could not be changed, they had tried and the result was a deadly virus. So no matter how much Roy Batty had grown, no matter how human he had become, his DNA still contained his death sentence.

    Besides, the Kamino cloners had been in the business of making clone armies for a while. And they make totally obedient armies and the last thing they want is for their armies to start questioning orders after a few years. So it is likely that the Kamino people had taken steps to ensure that the clones would not get too independent and not blindly obey orders anymore.

    Lastly, going strictly by DNA, there is not a huge difference between the DNA of a human and some animals. Less than 5% to our closest relatives. So you do not need to change the DNA all that much to have something that is not human anymore.

    Please note, I do not view the clones as evil or subhuman, in fact I find their fate quite tragic.
    These are living beings that have been bred just to fight and die for others. They can not refuse and they can not quit, they are slaves in just about every way. And I find it very odd that no one in the republic, with its anti-slavery laws, batted an eye about using a whole army of slaves. The clones are quite similar to the Jem?Hadar in DS9, they too are bred for battle and have been altered by their masters to better serve them. There their loyalty is in part due to their beliefs that their creators are gods but also due them being addicted to a drug that only their masters can provide.
    If there is a fall from grace then it is about the creation and use of clone armies more than anything else.

    Given the nature of the clones they must have very specific instructions in WHO they take orders from. Since they obey without question not just anyone could give them orders as then the seps could win the war by issuing counter-orders the whole time. So the clones would know who to obey and who NOT to obey.
    Second, the clones must have a very clear chain of command as the clones instantly obey orders and do not contact HQ to verify that their orders are legit. The clones have commanders and then they have the Jedi. So what would happen if their commander gives one order and a Jedi gives a totally different order? The clones would have to know instantly whose order
  7. DarthPhilosopher Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2011
    star 4
    However I would argue that does not eliminate free will, it merely placed limits on that free will. R2 could still choose to roll where-ever he wanted in the farm without an order. Something without free will, in my opinion, would need an order for every action.

    I would argue that, despite the genetic modifying of the clones, they still have the potential to attain greater humanity and individuality. For instance I am sure R2 was originally programmed with no independent thinking of his own, however through his experiences he attained individuality. In regards to the clones I?m not sure how the cloners could have done much more than reduced the part of the brain involved with independent thinking and in turn enforced this through their training. However ultimately anything with free will (intelligent thinking) comprehends experiences and in turn learns from experiences. The clones may have been taught and modified to not think independently, however the very nature of experience and intelligent thought means that the clones will inevitably be able to move beyond being confined to their genetic modifications. This is a theme of the films in my opinion ? that nature overrides whatever we attempt to establish definitively or absolutely.

    I am sure they were relying on the fact that those leading the army would not enforce individuality, etc. The Jedi are unique in the leading of an army.

    Well I guess that could be argued as a ?fall from grace?. What I am interpreting it as however, is that they were
  8. Nordom Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2004
    star 4
    First, let?s look at why a restraining bolt is even needed. The function of the bolt is so that a droid will not run away. Why is this needed? Why not simply tell the droid to stay put? Apparently that is not enough so then the droid must be fitted with a bolt to keep them there. So the droids in SW apparently have enough free will that they can run away and in order to counter this they need to be fitted with restraining bolts. We even see battle droids run away.
    Clones on the other hand are said to be totally obedient and if you tell one of them to stay put, he will. It seems that droids have more free will than clones. So using R2 as a comparison might not be accurate.

    Second about free will being needed for every action. Need not be the case, if a robot is given an order ?Clean the house? then it could, if it is advanced enough, have choices of where to start, in what room, using which tools etc. Another robot could be programmed with multiple alternatives when dealing with various situations and has the ability to choose between various alternatives depending on the situation. The AI in computer games can make choices, which player to attack, with what forces etc. This, to me, is not really free will. Free will to me includes the ability to refuse direct commands and the ability to do just about anything you can think of. If free will can be overridden or only applies in certain cases then it is not really free in my view. NOTE, this does not mean that you obey an order because to do otherwise would lead you to be punished or such things. I mean you are never given any choice at all, you simply act without ever thinking about it.

    I think you are overstating the Jedi here, are they the ONLY decent people in the galaxy? Would they be the only people that would treat the clones as people and not as tools? I would think not, there would have been others that treated the clones decent. But let?s say you are right and the Jedi were super nice to the clones. So millions of clones and three years of them being treated nicely. And yet when order 66 came not one clone disobeyed orders, at least not as far as the movie showed.

    I would like to think that the clones could evolve and grow beyond their function, I really do, but it is just that the movies show no evidence of this.
    Also the Kamino people could have put precautions in place, like if the mind of a clone grows to much then a deadly poison is released, killing him. Like the four year life span of the replicants, a safety feature.
    It is interesting that later on the empire seemed to have added regular people to their ranks and not just clones.



    Since Palpatine has been involved with the clone army long before the events of AotC it is doubtful that any possibility for the clone army to act against him was ever allowed. This includes contingency orders, the chain of command etc. Palpatine made this army to obey his every whim and he would not allow anything that could jeopardize that.

  9. EHT New Films Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 2007
    star 6
    Well said. I've always thought that the choice of humans (or any living being) for clones as opposed to using droids for the Republic's army meant that individuality and independent thought among the soldiers would be unavoidable sooner or later (even with genetic tampering to make them more docile and likely to follow orders without question). If this was not intended, a living being was an ironic choice to make versus a droid, when one of the selling points of clones was that they were superior to droids because of their capacity to "think creatively".
  10. DarthPhilosopher Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2011
    star 4
    I see no distinction. If the droids have a restraining bolt they don?t run away. If the clones have a genetic ?restraining bolt? they don?t run away. Take away either ?restraining bolt? and greater free will would be enabled. Thus there is no distinction between droids with ?free will? and clones.

    However the analogy of a robot cleaning the house is completely unlike clones since, despite the fact the robot has the choice between various commands, these commands are never-the-less only there because they are programmed ? thus they do not think creatively. This is unlike the clones who can think creatively with independent thought ? if they merely had various commands to choose from then it wouldn?t be creative thought and they would be droids (and thus not superior as the cloners claim). In turn, in my opinion creative thought requires independent thinking and as such free will. The obedience of the clones is, as you say, a restraining bolt which requires them to do their duty ? this doesn?t mean however that they don?t have the free will to think creatively within the limits of their command. For instance a trooper can be ordered to attack and not retreat, yet the soldier would have the option of how to attack and to think creatively to accomplish the task required of them ? this requires free will since this creativity is not programed but is rather is formed in the human mind independently. Their free will is limited yet not non-existent.

    As I said, developing complete independent thought and complete free will would not be instantaneous for the clones. A droid would likewise take time to construct free will. There is also the fact the order they were given was absolute ? there was no real creative thought involved.

  11. Nordom Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2004
    star 4
    But to me if free will can be overidden or only aplies in some very limited cases then it is not totally free. If the clones could not refuse the order to kill the Jedi then they did not kill them out of free will and thus it is not really a fall from grace.

    The issue is IF a clone soldiers could act in this way. If they are told "take this city" could they take time away from that and save people that are not on their side and they have no orders about? Saving a clone in their own unit or people on their side does not really count as that act is simply logical, mantain the strength of your unit. If they are not told "avoid unneccesary casualties" would they still take care not to shoot civilians? Do the movies show any such instances, were a clone saves someone that are neither friend or foe.

    The clones are a big part of Palpatines plan so he will not allow any possibility that they could be used against him. So some contigency plans that were part of the clones makeup would say "You must never, ever attack Palpatine". So there is no reason to think that the Jedi could order the clones to kill Palpatine, esp after AotC as he then has extra powers and can override the senate if he wants to.
    Also the clones apparently know that he is a Sith as they refer to Palpatine by his Sith title of Lord. The clone soldiers do not even have to be told to do order 66, their commander need just nod and they all know what to do. So it is possible that the clones have known all along that they would one day kill all the Jedi. They would not talk about it of course.


    We see droids be able to refuse commands but we never see a clone be able to do so.

    Droids can think creatively, take R2 in ANH. He has a mission to Obi-Wan and he shows Luke the Leia hologram, then he lies about what it is and then he lies again and say that if luke removes the bolt then he can show the whole message. So R2 lies and manipulates Luke in order for him to remove the bolt so that R2 can leave and seek out Obi-Wan.
    Pretty creative thinking.
    Also if you have a computer that can learn, ie learn from experience, then it could take things it already has experienced and make a choice depending on that and take action.


  12. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    R2-D2 is not like other droids. Just thought I'd point that out.
  13. EHT New Films Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 2007
    star 6
    It's an interesting point, but the catch is that the restraining bolt on a droid is doing just that: restraining them. It's stopping them from taking non-approved actions (fixing something they are not supposed to fix, leaving a certain area, etc.)... it is not stopping them from developing independent or creative thought, or a "desire" to do something. R2 wanted to leave the Lars' homestead to find Obi-Wan, but he simply couldn't because of the bolt. So he had the desire to leave, and beyond that he even used creative thinking to come up with an idea to trick Luke into removing the bolt.

    Therefore, the bolt is not really a limiter if we're talking about creative and independent thought between droids and clones, and no equivalent of a bolt for the clones needs to be identified (genetic or otherwise). I pointed out earlier that one of the selling points of human clones versus droids was the clones' ability to think creatively, which I still think is ironic since that is a slippery slope towards individuality, which may not have been a desired attribute among the soldiers of the Republic's army (even though their Jedi generals do seem to encourage it to a point). It is also ironic given that we do see examples of creative thought by droids such as R2, but he was probably programmed at a much more "intelligent" level to begin with than the battle droids.
  14. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    I think R2 is a bit of a Jedi, but that's another topic.
  15. Nordom Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2004
    star 4
    Well my analogy was that the clones have had their DNA modified and this, apparently, made them docile and they would obey any order without question. So this tampering have modified their behaviour. The restraining bolt also modifies behaviour but in a different way. It makes running away impossible. If the clones modified DNA makes free will impossible then the similarity is that unless the "bolt" is removed, a certain thing can not be done, running away for the droids, having free will for the clones.

    Also one other intersting thing is that for droids a simple command is sometimes not enough, they have to be "chained" in a way to stop them from running away. Something like this has not shown to be needed for the clones. They are totally obidient without the need of extra gadgets.

    The clones are said to be creative yes but they are also said to be totally obidient. So the Kamino people would have taken steps to ensure that the clones do not get too independent or start to be able to refuse or question orders. Clone armies do not seem to be a very new thing so the Kamino people would have had some experience with how clones will adapt and evolve over time.

    Lastly, it is ironic that some of the droids in SW seem more "human" than the clones do. Droids are shown to be able to run away and disobey orders while clones are not. So something that had a non-human origin has become quite human while something that had a human origin is acting less than human.

    Regards
    Nordom

  16. drg4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2005
    star 4
    While we're on the subject, might I recommend last year's Never Let Me Go? It may be the very best science-fiction film I've seen, superior even to the thematically-similar Blade Runner.
  17. DarthPhilosopher Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2011
    star 4
    Yet free will still exists. While it may be confined by orders it never-the-less exists, and such is the reality of the clones creativity. Creativity and adaptability requires free will. Droids develop these only through experience ? why else would the clone army be superior to a droid army?

    I simply don?t believe that if a clone saw a civilian dying and they had the opportunity to save the person (without jeopardising the mission) that they wouldn?t give aid. This would be an intrinsic aspect of what the Jedi would teach the clones. The fact of the matter is that the orders given to clones are not specific in any great regard ? creativity and resourcefulness require individuality and free will.

    Do we know this however? Perhaps Palpatine, once he had attained enough power, knew that he was invincible from the military.

    I am not arguing that following Palpatine?s Emergency Powers that he was invulnerable to the GAR. I am saying however that as a hypothetical the clones are aligned to the order and not the individual. So if Palpatine did not have enough power and there had been a contingency plan for his elimination, the clones would have followed such an order. I?m just saying that the clones could be considered ?heroic? just as they are considered ?villainous? in the sense that they could have hypothetically aligned with the Jedi.


    Yet these droids have had more experiences then the clones. The point is that the droids were first programmed and that through experience they have gained free will. There is no reason the clones could not attain the same free will as droids ? no matter their genetics their experiences will ultimately shape them.

    Why is this any different from a clone? If a programmed droid can gain fre
  18. Nordom Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2004
    star 4
    We do not know that droids only develop free will by experience, they could be made with some free will already programmed.
    The clones have lived for some time before they are sent out, some 8-10 years it seems.
    So they have already some experience. As I said the kamino people will not want their clones to get too independent and if experince would give them this then it is likely that the Kamino people have taken steps to prevent it. The battledroids we see fight in TPM are for the most part quite pitifull. They are confused quite easily, they are way to centralised and can be shut down. Creative is not a word I would use to describe them. The clones are quite superiour to those battledroids.

    You assume such behaviour but have you any evidence for it? The clones are based on a human and they look human but can you therfore assume that they will always act human?
    We are told that their genetic structure has been modified and this has changed their behaviour. So one can not use humans as a behaviour guide to predict how clones would act as they are not quite human anymore. And if the clones will save bystanders because the Jedi have taught them then it is just a case of them obeying orders.


    But since the clone army was only deployed after Palpatine had gotten those powers there was no point in time where the clone could be used against Palpatine. Also, as I said, Palpatine was involved with this army from early on and he knew what he wanted it for, to get rid of the Jedi and to take total controll of the republic. So it is quite possible and even likely that the clone army IS loyal to a person and that person is Palpatine.
    I see little reason to assume that the clones could ever have acted against Palpatine, there is no evidence that they could have chosen not to obey their orders. They were made to be totally obidient and we see that is what they are.


    First, you assume that two set of beigns are totally comparable, that need not be the case. One is based on robotics, one is biological. Second we do not know if droids are made to be totally obidient and they only get more independent with age. It is possible that droids are programmed to have some freedom of choice. As far as I know, noone has said that droids are totally obidient and will follow any order. That is said about the clones though.
    Third, if a droids programming can be altered by experience
  19. DarthPhilosopher Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2011
    star 4
    However my primary point is that the clones have firstly only had any real experience for 3 years (any years on Kamino were assumingly indoctrination, etc, and as such would not have gained them any real experience) and that clones require free will to some extent to think creatively. Without free will a clone would require a programmed order every time they act, etc. The superiority of the clones is that they are, essentially, humans with restraining bolts, meaning that they can adapt and think creatively (free will) yet they are never-the-less totally obedient. I know the clones free will is limited, however it never-the-less exists.

    Firstly it is not a case of following orders since the Jedi are not telling them to ?save civilian x, etc? but rather it is something taught to the clones which they take on their own initiative. This initiative requires free will.

    However consider the clones superiority to droids in their adaptability ? this adaptability requires free will and this adaptability would likewise require the clones to make their own decisions. If the clones can make their own decisions then they could likewise save civilians. As I said the clones heroism is reflected by those who are giving orders ? if the commander is moral (Jedi) the clones would likewise be moral, whilst if the commander is amoral (Emperor) the clone would likewise be amoral. The point is that the clones creative thinking and ability to adapt to situations would require them to make their own independent decisions and as such have free will ? this free will would likewise enable them to save civilians at their own initiative and discretion. So what I am saying is the clones have free will to adapt and think creatively and as such they would be able to make their own decisions (otherwise everything would require and order) ? as such if they were to save a civilian they would do so as a result of their own free will.

    If the Jedi require the clones to be independent then they will gain independence. Unlike other military leaders who would focus in regards to the effectiveness of the military, the Jedi regard the clones as lifeforms and as such as precious as all life is. If they are unable to disobey orders and the Jedi effectively ?order? them to gain independence, then it is reasonable to think independence would be gained.

  20. Nordom Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2004
    star 4

    Does not have to be like that. If the clones are given a general order on the likes of "If you can save a civilian without endagering yourself, your unit or the mission, do it!" Then this would be an order and since the clones always obey orders they will do this.

    If they had simply seen Jedi save lives and then some of them decide to act in this manner out of respect for the Jedi then yes they would be moral and heroic. But does this ever happen in the films?

    If they have been given orders to avoid civilian casualties then they will follow those orders and do that. If they have not been given any such orders would they still do that? I am not sure about that. If they are simply told "This town has lots of enemy soldiers in it, they must be killed." The clones could simply decide to drop a nuke on the town as that would get rid of the enemy quickly. This would also mean lots of civilian deaths but would the clones care? Do the clones have any kind of independent moral guide? Could they refuse an unethical order? Could they quit and leave the army? Could they save the lives of bystanders without anyone telling them to do so? Again I am not sure. We see that the clones show no hesitation before shooting their friends and comrades in arms in the back.

    Well you did say; "Not necessarily. If they are mindless, as you say, and the Jedi gave the order to execute the Chancellor, they would do so."

    My counter is that at no point in the films could this have happened as Palpatine had a higher rank and would most likely have put safeguards against this.

    No I have never said the genetic modification was vast. Obviously it could not be. If their DNA had been changed some 10-20%, the clones would not look even remotely human.
    Between a human and some of our closests simian relatives there is only about a 5% difference in NDA, perhaps even less. But this means that you do not have to change human DNA that much before you have something not human.
    What we do know is that the clones DNA have been altered and this have made them less independent and totally obidient. IF their obidience is due to this genetic tampering then since DNA does not change over time then it would still be there 5-10 years later.
    Given that the Kamino people have made clone armies before and one of their selling points is their inability to refuse orders. So IF clones could grow independent through years of experience to the point were they would have total free will and could refuse orders, then it is likely that it would have happened before. And the Kamino people would have taken steps to prevent it.

    This has been an interesting discussion but I suspect we will not get much further so I thank you and move on.

    Regards
    Nordom