Perhaps Sifo-Dyas Does Exist (Theory)

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith (Non-Spoilers)' started by BaronLaw, Jan 3, 2004.

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  1. BaronLaw Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 1
    The question of who is Sifo-Dyas has been debated among Star Wars fans since the release of Attack of the Clones. Perhaps this question is misdirected. Let me explain.

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    Prior to the events of the Phantom Menace, Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas had been researching the Sith cult and its use of the dark side of the force. Sifo-Dyas was disgusted with the increasing corruption of the Republic and saw in Sith teachings the answer to making the Republic effective once again.

    Mace Windu and Yoda, having learnt of Sifo-Dyas's studies, confronts him. Sifo-Dyas dies or is killed. Yet, through his research, he has learned how to maintain his consciousness apart from a physical body. He needs someone, some vessel, to help him attain his ambition. What better person than a Senator from the backwater planet of Naboo ? Palpatine becomes the host for Sifo-Dyas. This would be something akin to what people refer to as possession.

    Having a physical body to infiltrate and work from, Sifo-Dyas becomes Darth Sidious.
    --------------------------------------------

    Well, there is a potential theory which might explain the identity of Sifo-Dyas. When the Jedi Order is first apprised of the possibility of a Sith exisiting (Qui-Gon encountering Maul on Tatooine), Yoda and Mace exchange a wary look. Again, during AOTC, when Obi-Wan reports the existence of a clone army created at the behest of Syfo-Dyas, Mace and Yoda look at each other, very disturbed.

    Admittedly, this theory relies heavily on implication and it may very well be wildly off the mark. However, I thought it might be important to look at the Syfo-Dyas identity question from a different perspective.

    Feel free to comment.

    BaronLaw
  2. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    You know, that's actually not a bad theory.

    I at least have never seen a theory like yours to identify Sifo-Dyas.

    It explains the similarity between "Sifo-Dyas" and "Sidious".

    I thought that originally theforce.net had a spoiler for AOTC that "Sifo-Dyas" was "Sido-Dyas", but maybe I'm dreaming.

    So in your theory, does Sidious stay Sidious when he's Palpatine? I.e., does the "spirit" of Sifo-Dyas always possess/control Palpatine, or is it only when he needs to act?

    Does Palpatine have any idea of what's going on?
  3. BaronLaw Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 1


    Garth:

    In this conception of Syfo-Dyas, he has has possessed Palpatine, slowly eroding Palpatine's individuality until he no longer exists. At some point, there is only Darth Sidious.

    BaronLaw
  4. Kavic_Toth Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2002
    star 5
    Here's a thought for you, BaronLaw...

    Several have wondered how Qui Gonn could eventually 'surpass' death in the form of a Ghost Jedi, seeing as how Obi and Yoda have so far been the only ones to do this, and they 'faded' out, rather than die in the manner that Qui Gonn did.

    What if Dooku wasn't lying to Obi Wan at all in AOTC... perhaps Qui Gonn is much more heavily connected to Syfo Dias than we currently imagine. Take your theory and turn that on Qui Gonn, and this would potentially 'explain' Qui Gonns ability to transcend into the ethereal.

    Just a thought...
  5. arrowheadpodracer Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2002
    star 5
    Hmmmm. BaronLaw, cool idea if SW was a book series, or even comics, but I cant see it playing out on film.
    I always test me theories by trying to imagine the "explanaton scene" where its all layed out for one of the characters.
    Your theory involves a lot of backstory. So much that just having a character simply tell that story would take a while. They could show it with a flashback scene, but SW has never had one, so I dont expect one.
    I cant see your theory being explained in a way thats entertaining, makes sense to the audience, and helps the story.
    If you have an idea of the scene or scenes where it could be explained, I would be interested to hear it. Maybe it would make more sense to me that way.
  6. Darth-Seldon Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2003
    star 6
    I like your thinking!
    but I don't agree.

    I think Palpatine just used the name to create the army. That the guy was dead and not coming back.

    I like to belive that Palaptine is truly evil by himself. Your theory would destroy his character, in my opinion.
  7. Fingorfin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2001
    star 4
    It's not a bad theory, but, as said earlier, it is too complicated to bring into the saga at this point. If this had been set up from the beginning, then it would be possible, but, as it stands now, the only way to explain it would be with a 10 minute exposition scene that would not work welll on film. It would also anger many fans by telling them that the character that has been the personification of evil in this epic story is nothing more than some poor guy that possessed by a ghost.
  8. RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2003
    star 6
    I have to agree with you fingorfin. It's just too complicated, for what amounts to a minor plot point- did Sifo-Dyas order the Clones?

    There are not going to be any Galaxy shaking revelations, there just isn't time and it doesn't serve the story. So much personal stuff has to happen between Anakin/Obi-Wan, Anakin/Padme, Anakin/Palpatine etc, not to mention various fight sequences and an already hefty amount of political manuvering. Adding anymore plot devices would probably not be a wise idea.
  9. Kavic_Toth Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2002
    star 5
    there just isn't time and it doesn't serve the story

    True... this is something best left to the EU, actually, where more time can be paid attention to it and the details worked out in the 'tween' time.
  10. stormcloud8 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 4
    I think it is probably a very simple story, explained by a couple of lines of dialogue. Probably Palpatine or Dooku pretended to be Sifo-Dyas in order to order the clones, knowing full well that they could someday in the future blame the Jedi for ordering an army without the consent of the Senate.

    I can see Palpatine revealing this in his big self-reveal. Finally showing the Jedi (and the audience) that everything has been part of his master scheme. Probably mirroring his speech in ROTJ:

    ROTJ: It was I who allowed the Alliance to know the location of the shield generator. It is quite safe from your pitiful little band.

    EpIII: It was I who ordered the clones...etc, etc, etc
  11. BaronLaw Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 1
    The strongest argument against this theory, as some here have pointed out, is it's complexity, especially for the silver screen. Just serving up a different take on the Sifo-Dyas question, besides the usual answers. Remember, Yoda did remark (in AOTC to Chancellor Palpatine) that the " dark side clouds everything. " Thanks for the replies.

    BaronLaw
  12. Ghost_Jedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 27, 2003
    star 5
    Maybe Sifo-Dyas didn't die 10 yrs before aotc, . . . .
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    from a certain point of view ;)
  13. JMax Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2003
    star 2
    I still wonder where Sifo-Dyas got the money to pay for such a large army?

    Whether it's Palps controlled by someone else or whoever, where did the money come from to pay for such a large clone army?


    A very nagging point for me. The "Senator from Naboo" can't be that rich.
  14. Ghost_Jedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 27, 2003
    star 5
    I still wonder where Sifo-Dyas got the money to pay for such a large army?

    Dooku's got the dough, yo!
  15. EMPEROR_WINDU Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2002
    star 5
    sifo-dyas was a jedi master...if he never existed, then mace and yoda would have been a little more alarmed...Sifo-dyas is dead, and more than likely dooku used the nme as an alias to order the clones, just to cover his own back side
  16. burrie Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 27, 2000
    star 4
    I have to say that the theory has merit... and would certainly make for an interesting revelation scene. But as others have mentioned, it might be too tough to work this into Episode 3.

    ... but it certainly could explain a few things.
  17. classixboy Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 4
    I don't know ...

    The name "Sifo-Dyas" is invested with so *much* mystery in AOTC that it would be just too anti-climactic for him to turn out to be nothing more than some dead guy whose name Dooku/Palpatine used as an alias.

    I'm not sure if the theory posted here is correct or not, but I definitely think that there is more to the Sifo-Dyas mystery than the most obvious explanation.

    The puzzle is great: Sifo-Dyas ==> Sidious (Old Ben ==> Obi Wan), and I think Qui Gonn is a more shadowy figure than we've all been led to believe. Dooku suggests as much to Obi Wan.
  18. Ice Jedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2000
    star 3
    um, listen. i don't think this was written because BaronLaw wanted to see this in Ep3. It was just a friendly theory, something to get the board moving a little. A little non-spoiler theory about what MIGHT have happend. It is one of the most original theories i have heard here in a LONG time.


    --Ice Jedi--
    cold but not windy.
  19. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    I still think the obvious answer is that either Dooku WAS Sifo-Dyas as a Jedi, which is most likely, considering the Prime Clone was hired by Darth Tyrannous...who is none other than Dooku.

    Or, alternatively, that Sifo-Dyas was killed by Dooku and Dooku used his name. Why implicate yourself when you can use another's name?

    I think maybe Lucas thought that the AVERAGE watcher of AOTC wouldn't realize Dooku=bad. It's supposed to be a big deal when Sidious comes out at the very end of AOTC and says "welcome back, Lord Tyrannous." Oooooooohhh...he IS bad.

    But wait, we already figured that out.

    EDIT: As I've complained about many times before, Dooku should have been introduced in TPM - as someone who had left the Jedi Order - he could even be introduced as the leader of a new political group that had Separatist leanings. But no mention of his Sithness.

    Why? Because it would have been cool to see someone who had left the Order without becoming Sith.

    But now I'm hopelessly off-topic.
  20. classixboy Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 4
    In order to keep us slightly off-topic, Garth_Maul, I agree with you. In an ideal cut of the saga, Dooku should be introduced in TPM. There could have been a cool scene between him and Qui Gon. (Hint, GL: shoot this scene while Christopher Lee is still alive and slip it into the super-ultimate editions on DVD!)

    Something still nags at me that Qui Gon will be implicated in the whole Sifo-Dyas/Dooku/Palpatine mystery.
  21. Ghost_Jedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 27, 2003
    star 5
    Garth, the only problem w/ your above post is that Lucas didn't plan Dooku while filming tpm. Lucas was going through a couple of different ideas to use as the new Sith Apprentice of Sidious, one who would eventually become the non-force sensitive Zam Wessel. Eventually Lucas decided to make the new apprentice a former Jedi, as way to foreshadow the fall of another Jedi , one Anakin Skywalker, to the non eu movie goers. It was at this point that Lucas both created Dooku, and Dooku's legacy.
  22. classixboy Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 4
    Here's my theory, though I'm sure it's been mentioned before.

    Many, many years ago, Sifo-Dyas was a leading member of the Jedi council. He dabbled in the dark side and did a lot of snooping around about he Sith. Eventually his allegiance with the Jedi order weakened as he began to believe more and more in Sith teachings and their philosophy about the dark side. Finally, in an attempt to sever his ties with the council he engineered his apparent "death." Thus liberated from the Jedi order, he began his new, secret life as Darth Sidious, Dark Lord of the Sith. His first order of business as a Sith was to seek out and cultivate a worthy apprentice, whom he would later initiate as Darth Maul. During the training of his very young apprentice he also takes on the persona of a human senator from the backworld planet of Naboo, insinuating himself into galactic politics and thus preparing the way for his eventual rise to chancellor and then emperor. But how does he accomplish this feat without being recognized as former Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas? He uses his ability as a Clawdite changeling to make himself appear as the Human Palpatine.

    That's right. Just like the bounty hunter Zam Wesell, Sifo-Dyas/Sidious/Palpatine/the Emperor is an alien shapeshifter.

    Hey come on ... it's not that far-fetched!
  23. DARTH_BELO Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 25, 2003
    star 4
    For the sake of the general public being able to UNDERSTAND the movie's plot when they see the movie, I think it is way simpler than all this... I am a firm believer in the theory that:

    Sifo-Dyas WAS alive, and an existing Jedi, but Dooku, under the command of Sidious, killed him, and went himself to Bogdon to hire Jango Fett and then to Kamino, POSING as Sifo-Dyas (in order to maintain Sith secrecy AND later to help make the Jedi look RESPONSIBLE for the war) and placed the order for the clones in Sifo-Dyas' name.

    If you listen to what Jango says to Obi-Wan, and What Sidious calls Dooku at the end of ep. II, it shows that they are the SAME person:

    Jango: "I was hired by a man named TYRANUS on one of the moons of Bogdon."

    Sidious: "Welcome home, Lord TYRANUS."
    (a.k.a. DARTH TYRANUS-Dooku's Sith name.)

    My Conclusion: Dooku = Darth Tyranus = Fake "Sifo-Dyas"

    It just seems like it's simpler to comprehend, and makes more sense that way without over-complicating the plot...
  24. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    yup. I love it when people agree with me. ;)
  25. classixboy Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 4
    The name "Sifo-Dyas" is just too close to "Sidious" for that theory to work, imo. I think they're the same person.

    Plus, when Obi-Wan is making his report to Yoda and Mace from Kamino in the form of a hologram, as he says the name "Sifo-Dyas", there is an interference in the transmission, and it sounds like he says: "Si**-Dyas" (="Sidious").

    Sounds like an audio hint to me that Sifo-Dyas and Sidious are the same guy.

    Just like Old Ben and Obi Wan.
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