Perhaps Sifo-Dyas Does Exist (Theory)

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith (Non-Spoilers)' started by BaronLaw, Jan 3, 2004.

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  1. stormcloud8 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 4
    Another possibility...maybe Dooku killed Sifo-Dyas and assumed his name to order the clones. Maybe Yoda and Mace are the only ones who know that Dooku murdered Sifo-Dyas as his first act as an ex-Jedi.
  2. arrowheadpodracer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2002
    star 5
    Im sorry , youre all wrong.



    *I* am Sifo-Dyas.


    MWUAAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAhahahahaha ha... heh... hehhh...



    yeah. [face_plain]





    Its Dooku.
  3. DARTH_BELO Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 25, 2003
    star 4
    If THAT is true, Stormcloud8,

    then WHY would Mace and Ki Adi Mundi tell Padme in front of Palpatine and the other Jedi that Dooku is "an idealist, not a murderer?" - and that it's "against his character" to kill anyone?

    And why do dooku and Mace consider each other "old friends?"
  4. BaronLaw Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 1
    Any thoughts on the way Mace Windu and Yoda exchanged a wary glance when Obi-Wan reported on the order of the clones from Sifo-Dyas ? It seems to suggest that there is something more to the incident than Mace Windu's curt denial would have one believe.

    While the Jedi Council never authorized the order of a clone army, it is still possible that Sifo-Dyas broached the subject with some of the members, if not the Council itself. Remember, Mace stated that the order was not authorized by the Council, not that the issue was never presented to the Council in the past. If this is the case, maybe Yoda and Mace were expressing mutual shock that the order was nevertheless placed by (a) a Jedi they believed to be no longer in existence at the time and (b) over the explicit rejection of the Council itself.

    One possible explanation is that Sifo-Dyas did order the clones, disguising the fact that he had turned to the Dark Side, having become Darth Sidious.

    BaronLaw
  5. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    Yup - that is a possibility (Sidious=Sifo-Dyas)

    Remember that the Jedi ability to foresee the future is affected by the "shroud of the Dark Side" it's not like Sifo-Dyas could see that the Jedi would need this army in the future.

    It's far more simple to assume that either Dooku killed Sifo-Dyas and used his name (probable), or else his Jedi name was Sifo-Dyas (and he took the name Count Dooku when he left the Order, inheriting his family's estate and title).

    Why? Jango Fett hadn't heard of Sifo-Dyas; he was hired by a man called Tyrannus on the moons of Bogden. Also, he was clearly Dooku's bodyguard on Geonosis and was attempting to kill Padme. The Jango-Dooku connection is obvious.

    Dooku=Tyrannus.

    Dooku left the Order about 10 years ago - Sifo-Dyas was killed about 10 years ago. Actually, Obi-Wan seemed to know that Sifo-Dyas had been killed - that gravitates away from Dooku actually being Sifo-Dyas, but it's still possible Sidious=Sifo-Dyas or Sifo-Dyas was killed by Dooku.

    Someone erased Kamino from the Jedi Archives.

    Dooku specifically mentions the Jedi Archives on Geonosis when he calls for Mace and the Jedi to surrender. You'd think even Mace would be suspicious of his old friend at that point.
  6. QuiGonHrafn Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2002
    star 3
    "Why? Jango Fett hadn't heard of Sifo-Dyas; he was hired by a man called Tyrannus on the moons of Bogden. Also, he was clearly Dooku's bodyguard on Geonosis and was attempting to kill Padme. The Jango-Dooku connection is obvious".

    Do you really believe Jango has never heard of Sifo-Dyas? He is obviously lying. At the moment he says he has never heard of Sifo, Boba looks at him strangely and even Boba knows he is lying (probably met him at some stage). Jango Fett killed Sifo-Dyas ("Always a pleasure meeting a Jedi" is a sarcasting joke on his part). Then Dooku took over Sifo-Dyas' identity, erased the Kamino files before he left the order, went to Kamino and ordered the clones. I really think it is that simple. But of course I hope there is some twist that will shock all the fans and make the SW saga even greater than it already is.
  7. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    Hmmm...I suppose it's quite possible Jango killed Sifo-Dyas.

    It's also quite possible he is lying.

    I'm just trying to take the information that we were given onscreen in AOTC...in a way, it doesn't matter who killed Sifo-Dyas, because it really looks like Dooku hid Kamino from the Archives and placed the order for the army.

    I agree with you that it's a pretty minor plot point, yet many people seem to think that it's going to be a huge plot point in Episode III.

    Not me. It might surprise the Jedi, but not the audience...except maybe some of the "it's Darth Maul!" or "It's Qui-Gon!" conspiracy theorists. ;)
  8. stormcloud8 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 4
    I suspect this will be answered in a very simple way, probably with a line or two of dialogue. Probably when Sidious finally reveals himself, he will gloat over his success and arrogantly own up to it, like he did in ROTJ.
  9. arrowheadpodracer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2002
    star 5
  10. will_stan Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2004
    star 1
    I believe that Jango or Dooku killed Sifo and placed the order under his name. Simple. Remember, the goal here is that people that only watched epII once or twice to be able to understand everything.
  11. Aunecah_Skywalker Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2002
    star 5
    Nice theory BaronLaw.

    But if Dooku used Sifo-Dyas as an alias (like others have been suggesting and I personally believe to be true as well), do you think he would have mind-tricked the Kamino people into forgetting him? Because, wouldn't it make sense for the Jedi to take a picture of Sifo-Dyas and Dooku (considering that he turned most recently, I would think the Jedi would be first suspicious of him) and ask them which one it was?

    Wouldn't it get solved a lot easier and faster if the Jedi were to have done that?

    -Aunecah
  12. VadersLaMent Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2002
    star 9
    I think either Sifo-Dyas is Sidious or else he is a new villain that will appear in EPIII. They never said how he died or was killed, his death could have been faked in order to keep attention away from his activities.
  13. BaronLaw Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 1

    Aunecah:

    My theory is that Sifo-Dyas is in fact Darth Sidious and he placed the order for the clones.

    But, if the more popular theory is true, that Dooku placed the order under the name of Sifo-Dyas, then (to make the story easier to follow), the actual Sifo-Dyas probably never meets the Kaminoans.

    BaronLaw
  14. VadersLaMent Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2002
    star 9
    Ya know, people need to relize there is a spoiler forum.
    I go into another forum here, and someone innocently remarks on who Sifo-Dyas is. I hope they were just using a fictitious example, but it didn't appear so. or perhaps they just got a bad rumor. Yes, that's what I'll assume, bad info.

    :mad:
  15. LordIsurus Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 1999
    star 3
    Hmm, this is an intriguing proposition but it reminds me of a possiblity I thought of a while ago, but I never considered the two involved as Sifo-Dyas and Sidious.

    Thats not to say I dont like that idea because that is a very plausable notion with Sifo and Sidious...

    Let me reiterate a few things I think. First, it's quite clear that the ability to retain identity, in any manner, stems from Sith Methodology. The Jedi seem pretty clueless, even surprised to hear Qui-Gons voice, let alone the ghost images in the OT, at first. But I, too, extended that idea. If voices...then visions are possible, it's quite possible to inhabit and control, maybe, a living being.

    The way I visioned it, though, was maybe Lord Bane, since at the time I hadn't considered Sifo-Dyas, possessed Anakins body. In order for this to happen, Anakin would have to be almost or actually dead, or something. Sidious would go through the ritual or whatnot and get Lord Bane, or Sifo's, identity into Anakins body.

    Now let me add a few more things which may coroborate that idea. Number 1, for a long time, Vader is not concerned or caring about his son. Possibly, since completely possessed by the dark entity, he has no care of a possible son. Number 2, Anakin is reminded or slightly reawakened when he 'senses something he has not felt since....' meaning Kenobi. Number 3, he comes across another force-user who triggers a response when he is after Luke in the trench. By the time of ESB, Anakin is more aware than before, though still possessed by the dark entity. In RotJ he admits to Luke that he must obey his master. Sounding like a plea. Ultimately, once he destroyed Sidious, he died.

    Now, it's sort of hinted that the identity of whomever is only retained through means of the force-user who is alive. Like Anakin 'heard' Qui-Gon, somehow bringing his identity back. And Luke retained Ben and Yoda's identity. So it's highly probable that Bane, or Sifo, is dependant upon Sidious 'wanting' his identity to possess Anakin. Which is why Vader obeys Sidious so religiously. So after Sidious is destroyed, the dark entity looses its retention. And to further solidify the idea, Luke brings back Anakins identity, alongside Yoda and Ben.

    Thats what would make sense to me, anyways. Very nice.

    Isurus the White
  16. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    Wow, Isurus.

    That's definitely an original theory for explaining the Jedi Ghost/identity retention phenomenom.

    I can't see it happening, though. What existence in the movies is there for Darth Bane?

    How do we know that identity retention is a Sith practice? I agree that it is interesting that we hear Qui-Gon's voice when Anakin is deep in the DS killing the Tuskens, but...

    What about Obi-Wan's line "if you strike me down, I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine"?

    Vader looks like he doesn't know what's going on - if Bane possessed him, you think he wouldn't be that surprised.

    Hmm...that's related, although not exactly the same as identity retention.

    In terms of Vader's behaviour, he has given himself over completely to the Dark Side and the Emperor - maybe in some way his life is dependent on the Emperor.

    Maybe Vader/Anakin realizes his life is not worth clinging onto anymore (whereas in the PT he will think so), and sacrificing his life for his son is worth it.

    Anyway, that's why I think Vader doesn't know about Luke's existence before ANH.

    It makes the most sense to me that everyone in the GFFA heard of Luke Skywalker, the phenomenal pilot strong in the Force who destroyed the Death Star.

    From that point on, Vader became obsessed with finding Luke, as ESB and ROTJ show us.

    Why? Lucas has shown in the PT that Anakin had a strong attachment to his family - he never really left his mother behind, and he became obsessed with Padme.

    I cannot believe that Vader would simply leave his son alone for 20 years. It makes more sense that he doesn't know about it.

    Hmmm...anyway, back to identity retention after death:

    I think it's either (a) something to do with Anakin being the Chosen One, as in the Jedi become "attached" to Anakin and later Luke in some way, or (b) the "vergence" of the Force that is Anakin has disrupted the normal flow of the Force and Jedi no longer necessarily become One with the Force right away, or (c) the Will of the Force keeps these Jedi around to try to keep the Chosen One and his children on the right path.

    To borrow an idea from David Eddings, if Anakin is seen as the "Child of Light" in the PT, and then abandoned that role, it could be passed on to Luke for the OT...

    Well, that's one of the top things I'm most curious about for Episode III:

    the mystery of the disappearing Jedi and Jedi Ghosts.
  17. Aunecah_Skywalker Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2002
    star 5
    BaronLaw: Oh, I know your theory. My second paragraph didn't have anything to do with your theory. [face_blush] I was just wondering why the Jedi didn't ever go to the Kamino and asked them to identify who exactly ordered the creation of the clone army. (If they did and they won't show it in the movie...well, I just hope they'll write a novel about it.)

    Isarus: Good theory, but I think it's a little too complicated to bring into the movies at this time, isn't it, especially because the whole Darth Bane plot has never even been hinted until now? And I didn't think "Darth Bane" was a movie character; he's from the EU, isn't he :confused:

    GARTH_MAUL: Couldn't have said it better myself. :cool:

    -Aunecah
  18. LordSilvertouch Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 19, 2003
    star 4
    Darth Bane is from the EU, from many millenia before Episode One. I doubt he'll make an appearance in Episode Three.
  19. VadersLaMent Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2002
    star 9
    I don't think I have read anywhere yet that maybe Sifo-Dyas is Sidious, Palpatine is a separate person who is learning the Darkside from him, and Palpatine will kill Sifo-Dyas in EPIII.
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