personally the prequels are works of art,a greek tragedy if you will......

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by gtastarwars, Feb 10, 2003.

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  1. urgent_jedi_picnic Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 14, 2003
    star 4
    Ternian

    Sorry, I missed your last post and edited mine. Check it out :D

    Also, there is a definate prominent element of rebellion against the current government in the PT as well. The Empire doesn't exist yet, so therefore neither does that particular rebellion. If the story is about the rise and fall of the empire, then we have to go over the rise part. And the rise of the Empire is definately dealing with a rebellion. The separatist vs. the Republic. And once again, a bunch of characters drive this story of rebellion.

    And back on topic, I love that the PT is a tragedy. TESB was always my favorite because it bucked the status quo of good prevailing over evil. That's why I like the PT. It's gonna hit the fan and that's what I want to see.

    The Picnic :eek:
  2. Vaderbait Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 26, 2001
    star 6
    If it was about the Empire, why is it that the focus was on Luke and Vader? The last two movies were devoted entirely to Luke trying to find the good in Vader, not the good in the Empire. ;)

    We have hints at the good Vader once was, there is no such hint at the goodness of the Empire, thus the development is all in the character Vader, and none in the Empire, thus: the Empire was not the main story.
  3. Ternian Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2000
    star 4
    If it was about the Empire, why is it that the focus was on Luke and Vader?

    Is it? The focus is destroying the Empire and the only person who has a hope in doing that is the Jedi and the Rebellion - Luke is driving the story, but the story is still about defeating a tyranical Empire.

    The last two movies were devoted entirely to Luke trying to find the good in Vader, not the good in the Empire.

    I don't think so. The stories focused on training Luke to defeat the Empire. It happened that Vader=Luke's father thus providing a bigger challenge in defeating the Empire. Finding the good in Vader was just a tool that Luke used to bring down the Empire.

    ...there is no such hint at the goodness of the Empire...

    The beginnings of the Empire is still questionable until EpIII. :)
  4. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    Ternian: First of all, you´re making it sound like the PT isn´t popular. That is not the case. True, it doesn´t have the impact that the OT had, but that´s because Star Wars isn´t new anymore(and the competition is stronger now).
    Second: The main plot of the OT is very clear, because the Empire exists from the beginning. There´s no question as to what the rebels´ objective is.
    In the PT, the main plot doesn´t surface until AOTC, when the war between the Republic and the separatists begins.
    TPM has it´s own main plot: Republic vs Trade Federation. This is because TPM serves partly as a prologue.
  5. Ternian Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2000
    star 4
    First of all, you´re making it sound like the PT isn´t popular. That is not the case. True, it doesn´t have the impact that the OT had, but that´s because Star Wars isn´t new anymore(and the competition is stronger now).

    I'd have to disagree. The PT isn't popular with audiences. I really wouldn't say HP or LotR is really the same type of competition. SW is definitely losing its market appeal and it has more to do with film than the franchise.

    TPM has it´s own main plot: Republic vs Trade Federation. This is because TPM serves partly as a prologue.

    Yes...but the Trade Federation really doesn't come as bad. (but that's another discussion).
  6. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    So HP and TLOTR are not extremely strong franchises you say? I think the B.O. says differently.
    Even if B.O. records can not be used to measure quality, it certainly is a way to measure popularity.
    They are more popular than Star Wars, because their concepts are new.

    Back to topic: I think the TF does come out as bad, but you´re right, that is another discussion :)
  7. DamonD Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 22, 2002
    star 6
    The PT isn't popular with audiences

    Come on, your argument is fine without having to resort to big generalisations.
  8. Jovieve Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    Second that.

    'Fraid I'm with everyone else Ternian. The backdrop of the Fall of the Republic and the Rise of the Empire and the rest is the stage on which the actors play.

    Without them, it's a pseudo-documentary. The story is very character driven. You don't see the Senate being dissolved, you don't see the politics behind dividing the Republic into sections governed by 'grand moffs' like Tarkin, you don't see the economic failings of an 'empire' versus a good republic to its populace...you see only the part of the empire that connects directly to the characters.

    I agree, the main character is boring. You know what he has to go through to rise, fall and be redeemed. It's his companions through his journey - his journey is the story, paralleling the greater picture, mind you - that are very enjoyable. The energetic, unorthodox ways they help their friend, fight the greater empire in the OT, versus the noble, tragic, philosophical Jedi trying to bolster the slow dissipation of the ideals of the Republic, knowing they will fail, unaware they nurse a viper in their bosom in the PT is great storytelling.

    The saga is a tragedy overall. The so-called redemption of Anakin is also tainted. No one really forgives him save Luke and his great-hearted one-with-the-Force friends, but they were/are great people.

    It is celluloid art to be sure and if you go for Jungian collective unconsciousness thinking, a Greek/Roman/Asian/MiddleEastern, name your favorite region tragedy. It's a human tragedy of drama.
  9. Ternian Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2000
    star 4
    So HP and TLOTR are not extremely strong franchises you say?

    No, I didn't say that. I said that they aren't really the same competition.

    Star Wars DID something in the history of movies - HP and LotR haven't done anything that really pushed the envelope like ANH did in the 70's - or have had the same type of reaction socially.

    Even if B.O. records can not be used to measure quality, it certainly is a way to measure popularity.

    B.O. is never really a way to measure quality of movies (Titanic is a prime example) - and as for popularity, that is a matter of the moment.

    They are more popular than Star Wars, because their concepts are new.

    I don't believe they are more popular than SW. HP is a fad and the movies are sub-par. The movies will not last the test of time like SW will.

    LotR will last because the world populace has had nearly 50years to build up to the movie through the books. The movies themselves are fairly ordinary (cinema-release wise), though.

    Come on, your argument is fine without having to resort to big generalisations.

    Just because TPM drew in huge crowds, doesn't mean it was popular. It had huge things going for it to give it it's success.

    If the OT hadn't existed at the time of TPM, TPM would have been a major flop.
  10. Ternian Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2000
    star 4
    The backdrop of the Fall of the Republic and the Rise of the Empire and the rest is the stage on which the actors play.

    You've missed my point. Please read my previous answers to this. :)
  11. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    Isn´t it wonderful how the basher/gusher wars sort of sneak in on you wherever you go? :)
  12. Jovieve Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    Oops, missed that one. Gotcha, Ternian.
  13. AssassinDroid21 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2002
    star 4
    PT pales in comparison to the OT. About 90 percent of the JC thinks so too.

    Like when people say LOTR is the SW of this generation, theyre talking about the PT being crappy. I doubt anyone would be here if the OT sucked, because I along with others are dissapointed with the PT.

    Begun this Basher/Gusher war, has.
  14. Jovieve Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    PT pales in comparison to the OT. About 90 percent of the JC thinks so too.

    Like when people say LOTR is the SW of this generation, theyre talking about the PT being crappy.


    I don't recall anyone polling me.

    Back when the OT came I'm sure the movies didn't have any competition. If they did, I'm sure they would've been no more popular than the PT is now.

    No one I know says LOTR is the SW of this generation. Especially those who love Tolkien. There is NO comparison -

    and it is OT to discuss so let's not get into this.
  15. AssassinDroid21 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2002
    star 4
    Have you been living under a rock? Just about every LOTR fan here says that its the SW of our generation.
  16. Jovieve Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    It's not me, babe and let's not jump to generalizations about who 'every LOTR fan' is. It's everyone else I talk to who has read the books, loved Tolkien who are pretty hot their favorite characters were maimed, made fools of or cut out all together. They're not happy campers and they're huge fans of the trilogy.

    But like I said this board isn't the place for this.
  17. ShortOrderSith Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 9, 2002
    star 1
    Quick moderators block, block, wah,,wah!!
  18. DamonD Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 22, 2002
    star 6
    PT pales in comparison to the OT. About 90 percent of the JC thinks so too.

    Another sweeping generalization. I could say 90% of the world thinks I'm the most handsome guy that ever lives, with about as much actual polling as you've done.

    Have you been living under a rock? Just about every LOTR fan here says that its the SW of our generation

    This may come as a shock to you, but that's because they're LOTR fans.
  19. DarthMorte Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2003
    That was an excellent post to start this thread by the way.

    Even thought it's worth just about nothing, here's my take on why some people don't like PT as much. We waited for so long for more Star Wars and when we finally got it, our expectations were way too high. We wanted the Vader tearing it up right from the start and what did we get? An 8 year old kid and Jar-Jar. I'd lie if I didn't say I wasn't a little disappointed the first time I saw TPM. Not to say I hated it, but I like it more every time I watch it. I'm loving watching Anakin slip farther and farther towards the Dark Side. I, for one, am very anxious to see what finally sends him over the edge. Padme dying? Getting booted from the Jedi Order? Who knows? We can all speculate. Before AotC I actually thought that Sidious would have something to do with Shmi's death, thus sending him over the edge. Anyway, I'm starting to ramble but like I said. One reason some don't like PT as much is that we had too much expectation. We wanted TPM to do too much.
  20. random_trooper Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 1, 2000
    star 2
    All of you are starting to get lost in specifics..

    From where I'm sitting, both Ternian and the rest are arguing the SAME point.

    The OT/PT should be about the rise of the Empire: they are

    The OT/PT should be about Luke/Anakin and is truly more of a character study: they are

    Folks, these films are all about a universal theme: the struggle, both within (personal) and without (global-republic-->empire), between good and evil. They ask and offer a perspective on the question: "what makes good things turn bad?" "What makes good PEOPLE turn bad"

    I never really cared for GL's metaphor on these films being paintings/symphonies...but when trying to address this main theme, I can't help but draw on this same likeness. Both the personal conflicts AND the global conflicts are telling the SAME story, they're just using different colors/instruments...in one hand, we have the republic becoming the empire, the other we have Anakin becoming Vader...it's a symbiotic relationship...which to me makes this whole argument a moot point.

    As far as which story thread is featured more prominently, both trilogies I'd say strike an equal balance in personal vs. global conflict...if anything, from where I'm sitting, this has been the most important and faithfully maintained bridge between the two trilogies.
  21. Darth_Zidious Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 3, 2001
    star 4
    GL lost the plot of SW in the PT.

    [face_laugh]

    This is not possible, by definition. Of course, it IS possible for fanboys to be clueless.
  22. DarthAttorney Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2000
    star 6
    1) "Isn´t it wonderful how the basher/gusher wars sort of sneak in on you wherever you go?"

    2) "PT pales in comparison to the OT. About 90 percent of the JC thinks so too."

    3) "So HP and TLOTR are not extremely strong franchises you say?"

    None of these things have anything to do with the topic of this thread. Drop them now and get back on-topic (ie: read the initial post by gtastarwars if you haven't already) or there will be spanks handed out.
  23. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    I think the original post speaks for itself. Nothing to do but agree!

    ....although I don´t think the OT pales beside the PT. The PT gives the OT more depth and makes the saga as a whole so much greater than it was before!
  24. Ternian Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2000
    star 4
    The PT gives the OT more depth and makes the saga as a whole so much greater than it was before!

    So what gives the PT depth? Or is it just shallow?
  25. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    No, no, the PT is deep in itself and some of the depth in it lends itself to the OT.
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