PT Perspectives on The Phantom Menace

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Darth_Zandalor, Mar 11, 2013.

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  1. Darth_Zandalor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 2, 2009
    star 4
    Of all the Prequels, I find that the Phantom Menace is the one that gets the most flak. I've definitely thrown my share at it for its shortcomings. However, that said, I also find that it is the most consistent film of the Prequels. It doesn't necessarily have the worst parts of the PT, or the best, but it is far more even a film.

    I'll also go out on a limb and say that the second act is actually the strongest part of the movie, once they arrive on Tatooine. Everybody has made their points about Jake Lloyd's performance as Anakin, but I can put up with it on Tatooine. On Naboo and Coruscant, he's more annoying, but he's also out of his element. On Tatooine, Anakin appears much more street smart and helpful. It's his home after all, and he acts like an overconfident little kid would act.

    But mainly the reason I enjoy the Tatooine segment so much is because it feels the most like Star Wars, and it features the majority of what I felt the PT on the whole lacked: The criminal element. Far too much political meandering, not enough gangsters and mob bosses. Seeing the seedy port of Mos Espa and the huge variety of new aliens was a treat. Tatooine also features the most actual sets rather than green screen effects in the film, giving it a much more realistic, rustic feel than the shiny Coruscant or opulent Naboo. It felt grimy and dirty, and it felt real.

    There's also the podrace, which is brilliant. Excellent editing, minimal dialogue, and a great addition to the universe: space Nascar. It really captures the same speed and intensity of the trench run from A New Hope, and it manages to balance intensity with humor pretty well.

    While a lot of people claim that this part of the film drags, I enjoy it the most. It shows how Jedi talk to regular people, brings back the seediness of the Hutts, and tops it off with a great race scene. All in all, pretty damn entertaining. Your focus determines your reality.
  2. Bale Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 9, 2005
    star 4
    I think what I enjoyed most about TPM is how much it mirrored ANH. In a lot of ways, for me, ultimately that's what the saga is about. History repeats itself, but only if you let it.
  3. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    To be honest, the pod race (far too long) and Jar Jar's antics were what were the most annoying to me originally. I was initially very enthusiastic at the start of TPM but when I left the theater, I was "2nd worst movie of all time, too game-action-like, too childish." I refused to go see AoTC in the theater, even.

    Then I stumbled across AoTC on TV (during the Obi-Wan and Jango fight on Kamino).

    Then came ROTS.

    Then I rented TPM and fast-forwarded the infinitely-forever pod race and watched the film doing my best to watch with an open mind.

    And guess what - I do like TPM. It's the one I'm most likely to throw in for casual viewing, although I still fast forward thru many parts of it.

    Of course I would change things - pacing, get in a bit more characterization - but it's fun if taken on its own terms. Even Jar Jar isn't so bad.

    My biggest 'complaint" now is the dearth of material between TPM and AoTC - how'd Anakin go from easily provoked, happy go lucky kid to moody teenager with a strong sense of entitlement (or insecurity as others have pointed out)?
  4. Darth_Zandalor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 2, 2009
    star 4
    The Jedi Apprentice series deals with that. Except they go the weird way by making Anakin pretty much evil from the beginning.
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  5. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    JQ is not worth the cover price; not only is it aimed at a younger audience, it's not fair to Anakin or Obi-Wan and still indulges in the author's love of Qui-Gon (Obi-Wan is always thinking "what would Qui-Gon do" rather than have a thought of his own).
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  6. Darth_Zandalor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 2, 2009
    star 4
    Well I liked Jedi Apprentice (got it and quest mixed up), but yeah, wouldn't recommend Quest. Psychotic evil Anakin preteen. Anakin did get a couple moments near the start of the comic Emissaries to Malastare where he was with A'Sharad Hett, but not much else. There really isn't much material set during that time with regards to Anakin or Obi-Wan. A couple novels, a few comics and a young reader's series. Not enough to fill ten years though.
  7. Force Smuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    The pod-race was too short. I do not like the extended edition where the engines came apart and Anakin had to use a pole to fix them or whatever it was.
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  8. Darth_Zandalor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 2, 2009
    star 4
    It's too short, and you didn't like it when it was longer? I'm confused. Also, that was a magnet pole.
  9. Force Smuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    The part where the engines came apart or disconnected from one another and Anakin using a magnet pole to connect them was not necessary. Show Anakin passing people. Or more Tuskin Raiders and Jawas.
    Jarren_Lee-Saber likes this.
  10. Darth_Zandalor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 2, 2009
    star 4
    I love the shot where he barrel rolls over top of Teemto Pagalies.
  11. Force Smuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Ha ha lol yeah
  12. KilroyMcFadden Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 3
    Of all the prequels, Menace was definitely the one that felt the most like a Star Wars movie. (full disclosure: I watch edits that are missing Jar Jar, Midi-chlorians, and most of the "humor".)
  13. credar Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 18, 2011
    star 3
    Ironic. I just decided to watch the whole saga this week, starting with TPM tonight. Just finished.

    I feel that despite a little TOO much Jar-Jar, Anakin piloting a starship and blowing up the enemy ship on pure chance, 2 (I counted) .5 second effects shots, and some stale delivery from minor characters and a few from Anakin, it was a great film. That's really all I have against the film.

    I agree that the middle half was the best, but the end battles were also great. I also must be one of the people who liked the politics. I really liked those scenes and wish we had gotten more on the voting of the Chancellor. Though the pod race and the final battle scenes in the palace were the most enticing for me.

    It's no masterpiece, but it's a great film and the only reason it gets a bad rep is Jar Jar, Jake, and the fact that it didn't live up the crazy and overhyped expectations.

    Oh, and that wibbly wobbly shaky facey guy is annoying.

    But overall, I would give the film an 8/10 if I could. If only some of those people could look past it's minor errors and look at it for its good part.
  14. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    It's a great film.

    My bones with TPM are the pod race which drags on waaaay too long. The tension that takes a good 20-30min for them to build in that race could have been done in a 3rd of the time. Make it a race down a strip of desert like Fast and the Furious. I find myself skipping that scene whenever I watch TPM. Second is the traveling they do as a group. It feels too much like an adventure RPG taking your party across the galaxy. Naboo, Coruscant, back to Naboo. In all the other films outside ANH there are multiple storylines going on on different planets with the characters, that eventually meet together at a crossroads.

    TPM might have been helped by perhaps splitting up Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon for some time...but I still consider it a favourite.
  15. fett 4 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2000
    star 4
    Thought TPM was crap when I first saw it back in 99 and still do now in 2013 I still haven't changed my mind. However as bad as it is, it's still better than the mess that is AotC which is truly awful in every way.

    TPM is bad in a different way as it actually started off from a good base (See the Beginning outline) line, but instead suffers from to many yes men, some truly terrible casting, terrible plot changes (Qui-gon was not needed nor was a 9 year old Anakin etc) from what was quite good. terrible changes to the tone, terrible (now dated) CGI and some piss poor direction.
    Last edited by fett 4, Mar 12, 2013
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  16. Lord Chazza Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 4, 2013
    star 4
    The lovable battle droids, the jar jar problem, the cutesy Anakin, the ridiculous politics of the Republic, the stupidity of the trade federation, the rather un-threatening Maul (I'm serious. He had none of the menace that Vader had) and last but not least the rather obvious Palpatine/Sidious connection served to create a rather negative perspective on TPM for me.

    You see the characters have to be engaging. I didn't feel gripped to find out what would happen to Anakin or Qui Gon or Obi Wan. The only reason why you wanted to know what would happen to Anakin is because he turns into Vader and we want to know how that comes about. But the Anakin in the film isn't engaging. Quite the opposite. The storyline is also not engaging. There are supposed to be a million Republic worlds. I found myself not really caring about the tax regulations about one particular world. I also felt the problem was a bit stupid. If 2 jedi and the queen of the world come back saying there is an occupation then what more "proof" do you need. Palpatine says there is nothing the Republic can do. Nonsense. Simply freeze their assets until they agree to leave. The TF would be off Naboo like a shot.
    Last edited by Lord Chazza, Mar 12, 2013
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  17. fett 4 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2000
    star 4
    Agreed besides which Palpatine's scheme for getting more power really doesn't make sense either.

    The other issue is the failure to explain who the Sith are, why the want revenge and why there are only 2.

    With the whole Anakin thing (leaving aside not focusing on him anyway) was a screw up from the start as Lucas then had to change actor for the next film anyway. I mean imagine having Luke as a 9 year old in ANH before sticking Mark Hamill on screen for ESB!
  18. Jarren_Lee-Saber Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 16, 2008
    star 4
    Anakin isn't evil in Jedi Quest, he's just really ambitious. Although I think the author really didn't like his character, since she tried SO hard to make him look bad compared to that snotty-nosed Padawan (who she brought back to fight him in Last of the Jedi). I do love her love of Qui-Gon though.

    Jedi Apprentice was the superior series though - actually the best of all her series.
  19. Alexrd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    It's a great movie, and among the best of the series.
  20. Bale Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 9, 2005
    star 4
    If you explain every detail of something it loses some of its appeal and mystery.
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  21. ezekiel22x Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2002
    star 4
    It's an incredibly vibrant film bursting with gorgeous colors, and packed with pure fantasy adventure fun even when the action is arrived at through gangster bets and corrupt politics. It's self-aware enough to feature a huge battle that's blatantly cartoonish in overt design, yet at the same time offers scenes on Coruscant that stand out as some of the most stately, elegant, and quietly beautiful in the series. It probably is the most unique of all the films, and I suspect it will stay that way even after the Disney era arrives in full force.
  22. Darth_Zandalor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 2, 2009
    star 4
    Like I said, I find it the most even of the prequels. Attack of the Clones is a mess for having a horrendous main plot involving Anakin's romance, but it is somewhat redeemed by Obi-Wans fun mystery B-Plot. It just buries all the fun stuff under terrible romance and "Tusken slaughter makes me horny" crap. I get that they needed to establish the Lars relationship with the Skywalkers, but the way it was implemented comes out of nowhere. "I'm having bad dreams let's find my mother hey you guys are going to be important better shove you into this film somewhere even if it doesn't make sense any other way."

    If I were to introduce the Lars family in the prequels, I would have done it in Phantom Menace. Have Qui-Gon manage to free Shmi and Anakin, but Shmi is the one who convinces Anakin to leave. She remains on Tatooine, and comes across a man named Lars.

    Revenge of the Sith is rather middling and poorly paced for about two thirds of the film. There's a lot of eye candy and little substance, but once Order 66 comes down, it becomes easily the best stuff from the Prequels. The final third of ROTS could be a movie itself. The Jedi are now hunted, and they make one final push to stop the Sith... and fail. That last forty minutes from the march up the Temple steps are up there with the OT for me. The rest of the film though, eh.
    Jarren_Lee-Saber likes this.
  23. Khalil O. Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 9, 2013
    star 1
    It's ironic that TPM is the biggest grossing Star Wars film to date, since so many people criticize it. I think it had the least action of the three prequels, but it was meant to "set the stage" for the rest of the films, providing necessary background on Anakin. I think the pod race was my favorite part of the film, the next being the ending duel with Maul, Qui-Gonn, and Obi-Wan. And the musical score "Duel of the Fates" was chillingly beautiful.

    One thing that should be kept in mind when watching the prequels is that they take place in an entirely different era from the OT, so they're bound to be different. Aliens weren't marginalized as they were in the Empire, for example, so we would expect to see them everywhere.

    One final question, Why do so many people dislike Jar Jar (this is a serious question lol)? Was it because of how he spoke? Because he was clumsy? He wasn't exactly a "Chewbacca", but I don't think he was meant to be. Any thoughts?
  24. HevyDevy Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 3
    Phantom Menace is underrated. I think the OP's point that it is more consistent than the other prequels is valid. I don't want to start bashing AOTC, but personally I've always felt TPM was far above it.

    There is more of Sidious, and Palpatine, some great lines from both sides of his character. Qui-Gon is my second-to-favourite Jedi (first being Luke of course) and there's not so much to dislike about Anakin in this one. Padme is IMO hotter than in the following two movies. TPM seems more focused than other episodes, it may be because I was only 13 when it came out, but I can still suspend disbelief for most of the movie. The Jedi (particularly Qui-Gon) act how I would imagine Jedi to act. I prefer Maul to Dooku. Great music and lightsaber action. TPM (for me) retained some of the Star Wars charm. I'm no expert on film, but there are some great visuals, and, as with all SW movies, it has an interesting use of effects and an expressive musical score. So much rich symbolism and metaphor.

    Having said all this, I think part of TPM's brilliance is that it relies on, and supports, the other episodes. I don't mind the midichlorian talk because it just adds to what you already learn in ANH. It doesn't overwrite it, the movies were meant to be watched together. The mythology really shines, and it seems more like a movie Lucas had his heart in, than perhaps other movies in the series.
  25. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    Well, someone finally said it! As beautiful as Natalie Portman is in the other episodes -- and still is (in some ways, she's even hotter now, as a thirty-something woman, IMO) -- her beauty is just so effortless and natural in TPM. I don't think Padme ever looks cuter than in her simple Tatooine garments. That planet brings out the sexy. Ah, sweet sixteen...

    But yeah, I like the bright, unbounded, optimistic, energetic, regal, heroic -- have I used enough adjectives yet? -- triumphant feel of TPM over the other five in the "Anakin Skywalker" tetralogy; sorry, hexalogy. (I am sometimes given to think of four movies -- TPM, AOTC, ROTS, and ROTJ -- as actually making up the AS storyline). It's just a film you can get lost in. I almost feel that it encourages participation: The Participation Menace. What I mean by that is... you can try conducting the score in its brasher moments. Air-conducting. Cooler than air-guitar. And it really works. You feel like a grand architect with all that beautiful imagery unfolding before your eyes. I like swishing my hands and tapping my feet, for example, when the Trade Federation March kicks in after Qui-Gon says, "Head for that outcropping". 'Course, if I do it too vociferously, what happens is I might miss that quiet moment of Padme (as Amidala) dipping her head at that big window as she feels the burden of takeover and failure: the two strands of TPM working symbiotically together (brashness and subtlety).

    Another thing I recommend -- strongly, strongly, strongly recommend -- is watching TPM in the dark. This is the way all movies should be watched (certainly, all SW movies), but it really boosts the subjective "wow" factor of TPM more than most. The swim to Otoh Gunga is a notable demonstration of the value of this approach. As that glowing architecture comes into view, with those mysterious chorals wailing, the screen comes alive and you can almost feel the city's arresting warmth. It's gorgeous and transcends a "house lights up" approach. Start the film in the dark, sometime, and stick with it till at least this part, then tell me it's not improved. Along with watching in the dark, setting the right ambiance, it also helps to have the sound cranked loud. My God, Ben Burtt and the gang really outdid themselves with TPM. They created a whole new vocabulary here; it's almost a living thing. With the sound loud enough, you can hear some very fine foley work; the smallest of details are attended to, filling out a world. And, of course, the big details make maximum impact: the Jedi's ambassador ship being blown up at the start, the hum of lightsabers, the drone of big engines, podracers, Artoo's beeps and whistles, etc. Everything feels like it's coming at you for the first time. It all starts for me with that pan down and the first ship streaking across frame. Some people have chosen to complain about this moment, and how it starts the film off on a bum note compared to ANH's exciting, vigorous opener, but I profoundly disagree. I actually prefer the understated simplicity of TPM's opening. And that loud roar of the ship as it whizzes by -- the first diegetic sound of this fantastic universe -- immediately pulls me in.

    The cinematography is highly commendable as well. A lot of the shots are lushly composed yet brazenly understated. There's a lot of static camera work. And very few -- if any -- real "verite" moments (perhaps Threepio, with his Threepio-vision, as Anakin says goodbye, gives us our only true "verite" moment). It's almost all gentle pans, simple dolly moves, discreet pull-backs, etc. I think the most extreme camera movement is that whip pan during queen's counsel: "Senator Palpatine?!!" But I appreciate it all. The visual field is almost as chilly and restrained as the Jedi and royal protagonists. And what a feel that creates! Yet it's all so amazingly vivid, too: colours, shadows, shapes, etc. SPLENDID! One cannot help noticing the bright, summer-y feel of the film, either. Naboo is particularly striking for the density of its foliage, the height of its palatial compound, the richness of its skies. Blue and green are carefully summoned in the forest sections to rhyme with Qui-Gon (green) and Obi-Wan (blue). Compositionally and thematically, this gives the setting of Naboo the impression of BALANCE. It is day-time in Eden. But as the film transitions, a character will come to realize he is "naked", and will politely ask his maker to dress him ("I should prefer it if I were a little more... completed"). So, along with the cinematography come the allegories and the allusions. It's a film bursting with symbolism, with a magnanimous "storybook" stylization: a glorious fantasia. Everything is so controlled and dignified, and at the same time, ornately executed: another sort of tension that makes this film so appealing and endlessly rewatchable, IMO.

    Now, Jar Jar. How can one NOT love this guy? Lots of cool details, actually. One that recently struck my attention was how Jar Jar comments on Theed the moment the bongo surfaces, but the Jedi say nothing. He anoints his surroundings with the following remark: "Oh, this is motherly". Yes, that's what I hear: half-way between "lovely" and "motherly". That's interesting because Naboo has often been said to be a "feminine" planet; and it's where crucial developments in Anakin's life take place involving the feminine principle. The stern, business-like Jedi seem cold to its wares, but not Jar Jar. He also gives a compliment of his surroundings when they arrive at Anakin's hovel: "Oh, this is cozy". Motherly, cozy. Jar Jar seems to see beauty where others do not. He'd probably make a better Jedi than any in the order, since he seems to appreciate the simpler things. He hasn't yet been around the galaxy enough to acquire disillusionment. Where others are blind, Jar Jar still sees. I really like that little motif. And I can't help but see it as significant. It's all the more tragic that such a kind, wide awake, complimentary character has been so terribly maligned. Perhaps the most "jarring" thing of JAR JAR is that he's just such a straight-up guy. He's not captious, he's not cold, he's not conceited. He's simply himself. A lesson to be learned there.

    And Lucas shows you how into his "rhyming" he really is with TPM. One cool connection I've picked up on -- small as it is -- is that the SW movies seem to exist in adjacent pairs (in production order). Okay, sure, they exist in all sorts of combinations, but let me just explain this particular one. The binding element is the run times. ANH and TESB are very similar lengths, while ROTJ is that little bit longer. TPM is about as long as ROTJ. Then there is AOTC, which runs about as additionally longer than TPM and ROTJ as ROTJ does ANH and TESB. ROTS is a tad shorter, but for all intents and purposes, AOTC and ROTS make a final pair. So: ANH-TESB, ROTJ-TPM, AOTC-ROTS. Pretty simple, but what makes the pattern that bit neater is that TPM and ROTJ are the farthest apart in narrative time. The other pairs share a sort of "in order" proximity, while TPM and ROTJ talk to each other at a distance. Noticing this, I can only enjoy TPM more: as ROTJ's mercurially-loyal "twin" or rhyming stanza. "It's like poetry, they rhyme. Every stanza kind of rhymes with the last one." If every scene and shot has been slaved over, then this is quite the pattern. ROTJ and TPM are sort of like travelogue pictures: more bloated than ANH and TESB and a little less saturated in plot than AOTC and ROTS. The more pronounced step-up in run time between TESB and ROTJ marked a more serious turn for the saga, I guess, and it's nice to see that "130-and-something-minute" time-design back in TPM. If you think about it, it's AOTC that messes the symmetry up, since if the PT were a true mirror image, AOTC and ROTS should be shorter, but they're the longest of the saga. Curiously with SW, one can perceive a maddening array of patterns, largely from paradoxically observing where the patterns break down.

    Esoterica aside, TPM just satisfies, I think. I can't help getting into esoterica, though, because its crafting is so cunning. I could wax rhapsodic about a lot of stuff here, like the way you feel like you're sneaking with Jar Jar and the Jedi before they drop down on the queen's entourage and kill the battle droids, or the formidable bass sounds in the underwater sequence (the sando aqua monster feels enormous), to the dynamic brilliance of every last second of the podrace, to Qui-Gon fighting Maul in the desert (made better for the calm response of Obi-Wan to what's happening), to all the wrangling on Coruscant, the happy -- if uncertain -- return to Naboo, the acting from Liam Neeson and Pernilla August when they're on-screen together, Jar Jar mucking around in the junkshop and Padme's glee, the way some kind of Force use (puppetry/ventriloquism) is sort of implied between Sabe and Padme, the queen's chrome starship, Watto's avarice, the pit droids, scene with Jira, Jar Jar gobbling up fruit, Anakin's disgust of Jar Jar, an incomplete Threepio hobbling around and being called "perfect" by Padme (plus the flute that plays when Anakin powers Threepio up for the first time -- note where flutes are used in AOTC), the shot of Artoo trailing that's strangely sped up as QG, JJ, and Padme make their way back to Anakin's place, those terrific costumes worn by the Naboo security forces, the way Qui-Gon holds and swings his saber, the hyperdrive generator and Maul's facepaint, Anakin saying goodbye to his mother, the humongously epic four-way action climax, etc, etc.,...

    ....and just the whole juvenile tone. Yes, I'm down with that last one. ALL. THE. DANG. WAY. In the words of my other favourite film-maker, "I think you can be substantial and still be interested in frivolity" (Sofia Coppola). I resent the notion that you can't have a strong helping of the "light" side to go with your hearty meal. To me, the whole saga is a heck of a lot more varied and operatic this way. If there's one overriding "essence" to TPM, it may be its cultivated sense of bubbly fun (albeit placed within a film where the grown-ups are generally stuffy and serious). It reflects the child-like protagonists at its centre. Ya know, kids are meant to be silly and spontaneous and never quite the same from one moment to the next. TPM does a good job, IMO, at capturing a child's-eye-view of the world (or, at the least, a confected, made-up world: a realm of allegory and wonder). It's like some grand piece of classical music. And there's plenty of classical music with a whimsical bounce. It's not all requiems and moody concertos; some stuff goes in completely the other direction. You can hear that understanding expressed in every beat of the magnificent score John Williams delivered here. He saw what Lucas was up to -- and, of course, they chatted -- and went and brought everything out, as if he played the role of lifting Aphrodite up from the sea. The same metaphor holds for Lucas himself: what he did here in raising Star Wars up fully into the pantheon of painterly beauty and epic myth. Flush with intrigue and blazing with colour, TPM is the sanguine to ANH's pallid. It's the galaxy in bloom. It's exactly what it should be.

    To go along with that last thought, let me confess that I never thought much of the "Joe Campbell"/"epic mythology" stuff before TPM and the PT. Star Wars, at that point, to me, was a clever and enchanting set of films -- which is no bad thing in itself -- but little more. I appreciated the trajectory of the original trilogy, and I had some Star Wars merchandise (a few toys and games, mostly), but it all felt a little insubstantial next to other films and television programmes I liked at the time (and imagined liking in the future as my tastes *ugh* "matured"). TPM, though, is so intricately designed, adding so much more to the series, and recasting it as a galactic tragedy in the making, and especially with Jar Jar occupying the "quirky, annoying creature/mythic fool" role so powerfully, that I had to reconsider my earlier view and start taking the films more as art-pieces, where Lucas expresses an interest in everything from animation, to literature, to history, to politics, to architecture; where he absolutely set out to be as big and as bold and as eccentric as possible. He'd been wanting to paint a much bigger world and speak in many more dialects all along. Finally, with TPM, a sense of the epic had become reality. As a work of cinema, I feel it's overdue some serious respect.
    Last edited by Cryogenic, Mar 13, 2013
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