Clone Wars Petition of the 2000: Preserving the Integrity of the Star Wars Saga

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by ImNotAStarWarsFanboy, Mar 28, 2011.

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  1. ImNotAStarWarsFanboy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2011
    star 5
    Alright first off I'm well aware that this is not the most ideal place to post this, and I know this petition is already being pimped out in the Literature Save Our Continuity thread (link here), but I feel there's a lot of LACWACers here that maybe don't get around the whole site too often but certainly feel strong about this.

    This petition is to address the continuity issues raised mostly by The Clone Wars show, mainly how the writers seem to disregard established and beloved EU material in favour of telling whatever story they want. So for example, meddling with EU-established backstories for certain characters that appear in TCW, such as the most recent alternative death of Even Peill that directly contradicts with the first Coruscant Nights book, or stuff like in The Citadel where they messed up continuity even within the same sub-franchise over carbon freezing, namely copying the basic story from the comic and then not giving it any respect by adding in lines to contradict with what was already established and accepted as canon by the large majority of Star Wars fans. However as I'm sure you are all aware the list goes on and there have been many retcons over the show's lifespan so far that could all have been prevented with a little more care with regards to what has already happened. So the petition asks that stricter, tighter controls over the writing of the show in regards to the EU are imposed, so that more unnecessary retcons and fixes are minimised.

    To give a bit of backstory in case you're interested, this idea of a petition I believe originated on the Dark Horse forums' official TCW discussion thread (link to the thread here, petition discussion begins on page 169), suggested by DawudKenobi (TF.N username Dawud786). Recently after gaining some nods of approval it was decided to move the idea into it's own separate thread (here). Since then us DHF members have been trying to set this up and get the word out there.

    Mods, if you want to lock this topic, that's fine by me, all I'm doing is trying to spread the word, the more signatures we can get on this petition and the more likes we can get on the Facebook page, then the more chance there is of someone at LFL or in the TCW production team noticing this, realising that what they're doing to the established material is wrong and doesn't sit well with a lot of their fans that actually matter and stick with it through thick and thin, and actually doing something about it.

    So here are the links, if you feel strongly about this I'd like to ask you to sign up, as I've said we can actually make some progress with this if enough people are willing to put their names down for it.

    Main petition

    Facebook page
  2. Humble_Jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2004
    star 4
    Ok, what I'm missing in that entire story is what this is essentially about.

    Continuity? Leaving the EU intact?

    Sell-out tactics like Maul 2.0?

    Things that only affect the movies?
  3. ImNotAStarWarsFanboy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2011
    star 5
    Duly noted HJ, added in the "So what exactly is this petition all about?" bit, guess I skipped that in the speed I wanted to pump this out. It was a personal oversight, I assumed the title was self-explanatory enough and I didn't need to actually explain what the aim is.
  4. Darth_Zandalor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 2, 2009
    star 4
    Eh, I'm not sure. I've been a staunch supporter of the EU for longer than I've been on these boards. But even if I am a little grouchy about screwups in this show, I am trying to stay optimistic, and ride out the storm until Leeland and others manage to fix the headache.
  5. Humble_Jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2004
    star 4
    Right, that is a lot clearer.

    I would dispute that EU events are accepted as canon by a large majority of Star Wars fans. Perhaps 'a significant part of the fan base' would be more accurate. But unless I am mistaken, the people who read EU are really a minority of the fan base. I guess they would consider themselves more 'hardcore' fans perhaps, but even that I find debatable, since liking what is established in EU is largely a matter of taste.

    As much as I sympathize with EU fans, I'm not one for supporting this petition. Frankly, the idea of this series being restricted by everything that is established in the EU frightens me. Being set in an era in which we know most of the characters' fates, it is restricted enough as it is.

    Seeing as I only like certain 'parts' of the EU, I am more the 'choose your own adventure' kind of guy. I see the stories of SW as a collection of tales and legends, the details of which may vary from time to time, like in real world mythology. Simply put, I think new spins on things are very interesting and leave more room for surprise.

    I wouldn't like it if the series changed aspects of the EU that I personally like very much, but it wouldn't be a disaster to me. I'm used to ignoring all kinds of stories I don't like. I have no need for any 'official history' of events, because it's really a fictional universe after all.

    The movies will always be the most dear to me, and as long as the series doesn't significantly weaken those, I'm happy enough as it is.

    You'll definitely find some customers here in LACWAC though.
  6. TheLucasAdvocate1992 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 14, 2010
    star 2
    And Humble has just saved me time in typing my reasons for not signing this, though I'll add that I'm not signing mostly because I happen to LIKE most GLs changes in place of the Eu.
  7. Darth_Gamek Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 10, 2009
    star 6
    ^^ Agreed. And LucasAdvocate's signture decribes my thoughts quite well.
  8. SpecialOpsUnit Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 1, 2007
    star 4
    IMO this is pretty pointless. No offense.
  9. Humble_Jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2004
    star 4
    I would admit to feeling that -generally speaking- I prefer Lucas' take on his own universe to that of others.
  10. Darth_Gamek Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 10, 2009
    star 6
    This. :p
  11. Jedi_Kenobi32 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2005
    star 4
    This. [face_peace]

    Although I understand where EU fans are coming from I cannot support such a petition. Plus to be completely honest I'm more concerned about the series contradicting the films than anything from the Expanded Universe simply because the films are obviously the highest level of canon.

    Also I hate to mention this but online petitions rarely work to begin with. As SpecialOpsUnit mentioned it is pretty pointless.

  12. Loupgarou Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 19, 2010
    star 3
    I don't completely support this petition, because i don't think TCW needs to completely preserve everything ever written in the EU, but i do think it should take it into account and try to respect it.

    I find Evan Piel's death disrespectful to the author of Coruscant Nights, who was told his work was more than just published fan fiction, and is now regulated to just that, since the entirety of his premise is now completely ruined. No simple ret-con can fix this.

    I find many other changes the same. As i said some things i don't mind so much,'s things that are really old and obscure, small things that can be explained. But stepping on the toes of large plot points from modern EU/widely-accepted EU is just mean.

    So in a way, i accept the spirit of this petition. But i can't sign it as it is now. I want to make my opinion heard though because i highly disagree with the idea that GL should just crush anything he sees fit. If we wants to do that, he shouldn't allow an EU.
  13. FalorWindrider Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2010
    star 4
    I'm not bothering with this petition because its a waste of time, but I support the sentiment. The Clone Wars EU was many orders of magnitude better than TCW, in my opinion.
  14. Game3525 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2008
    star 4
    Agreed.
  15. rumblewagon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 24, 2004
    star 4
    I saw this petition on the main page, but now that announcement is gone. Hmmmm....
    Anyhow, while I'm not all that vested in the EU, I can understand why faithful and loyal fans of the EU feel betrayed when there's such a glaring contradiction as Even Piell's death(s). Would it have been all that difficult to swap another Jedi into Even Piell's place? Was it even suggested when they realized they would be contradicting another part of Star Wars? I can imagine the furor over in the Lit forums and their concern of what may be next.

    EDIT: While I understand the frustration behind this petition, I disagree with the idea that it is TCW or the writers of TCW that disregard established canon. We've seen that George Lucas sits in on every discussion for the episodes and approves them. I can't imagine that Filoni or any other writers involved in TCW set out to disregard canon. If this petition should be directed at anyone, it should be George Lucas.
  16. Robimus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    This is something thats impossible to measure at this point.

    Now a sale doesn't equal a fan, but many Star Wars novels do hit the New York Times best seller lists on a regular basis. Games like Battlefront have sold over 10 million units while The Force Unleashed over 6 million at this point.

    I suspect that the truck loads of EU inspired toys that Hasbro has sold(and cointinues to sell) is an arguement that the EU is a bit more widely accepted than its often given credit for.

    I feel like a petition can't hurt even if its likely to end with no result.

    If I'm running a business and I have a significant number of customer complaints, personally, I'd like to know about them. Yes, they have the money I've spent the past 30 years already - but assuming they would like future money I'm bound to spend over the next 30 years...well you get the idea.

    As a lifelong fan of Star Wars I've already ceased purchasing TCW toyline outright after collecting heavily for the two seasons. I've also left more TCW books in the book store than I ever have with Star Wars books in general. On top of that I've made the decision to not purchase Season 3 of TCW on DVD becasue it was such a huge let down for me personally.

    All in all, LFL won't care if they lose some of my money. Maybe though, just maybe, if my complaints and issues get multiplied over and over again, someone will take notice.

    Doing nothing is like Luke in ANH whining to Obi-Wan that he can't help him because of the size of the problem. If they feel strongly about it one should at least try.

    Humble, your concerned about TCW story telling and how it would be restricted by adhering to the EU. I think thats a valid point, but in the same breath one possible solution would be splitting the EU into a seperate universe.

    If what was established in the pre TCW EU was reset at this point, in its own universe, you would still get your "original stories" while I wouldn't have the issue of trying to figure out if my favorite novels still count.

    I think its something that seriously needs to be looked at. TCW still has a long way to go, and this live action series will get off the ground sooner or later, which will no doubt cause similar woes. TCW is just the beginning of something more far reaching.
  17. Kualan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 4, 2008
    star 4
    I would also have to come down on the side of those who actually prefer a lot of GL's changes.

    At the risk of opening a can of worms, I much prefer his take on the Mandalorians. Instead of maintaining the same old 'Warriors warriors warriors! War war war!' culture of before, he's introduced a whole new angle to the race; it makes sense that a culture with such a violent past would eventually rise to make an effort to reverse that viewpoint - look at Germany following the Second World War.

    Similarly, I liked the Mortis Trilogy and his take on the Nightsisters, which were indeed far more 'witchy' than any previous incarnation.

    Now don't get me wrong, I think the EU is great too - in the CW era, highlights like Quinlan Vos and Durge spring to mind and KOTOR and Legacy are some of the best additions made to Star Wars as a whole - but I'm just not so attached to it that I find TCW's changes unbearable. Best of luck with your petition.
  18. Swashbucklingjedi Game Winner

    Game Winner
    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2010
    star 5
    Too bad Legacy just don't make sense with the Chosen One prophecy that's my biggest prob with it -so i have to abandon it.... it's not bad comic-series not at all- but i cannot buy the idea of these new sith- makes me just.... sick- and ruins the c-canon for me.... and honestly... i also hate Krayt's design.......

    Not signing this because it gives too much power to EU over GL- to EU which is 50 percent awesome yes but also 50 percent pure **** IMHO-
    Is Glove of Darth Vader or Crystal Star really so good you would like to have them as same level in canon as movies or even TCW?:confused:

    i sympathise EU-fans and i'm fan of some eu myself i don't wish all would be overwritten- no way some limit there- there is lots of good stuff already written so if petition would be "save the old clone wars series" or "save the Republic-comics" i could sign- but not entire c-canon.... EU is not saga anyway not to me.... saga is six movies TCW or EU aren't part of "the saga" -they are additions that can be either accepted as part of saga or abandoned completely -I would say so i could also sign petition "Don't change the movies because of TCW" -i definitely wouldn't accept that- minor changes like Greedo having eyelids wouldn't hurt but dialogue must remain same- no addition of 'Ahsoka's death' being mentioned or Mortis (i would kill someone if Mortis would be added to movies:p)
  19. ImNotAStarWarsFanboy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2011
    star 5
    Interesting to see that the more critical persons are the ones more open to signing. All I will say is that even though ultimately this venture may not get loads of signatures, just by spreading the word that there is a group of people out there willing to stand up and do something I have succeeded in my primary goal.

    To those saying a petition is pointless and won't make any difference, I voiced the same concerns once it was suggested, but I have still signed out of principle. Now if you genuinely prefer the changes made, then by all means you can disregard this, I respect that. But if you're opposed to the changes or prefer the EU version of things, then even if you think a petition would never work, I'd ask if you could still sign like me to show that at least you are not satisfied. And if enough people put their names down then who knows, maybe we will see some change.
  20. koonfan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 15, 2008
    star 4
    Random thought: If I remember what I read about Even Piell's 'personality' in Coruscant Nights...couldn't those traits have been easily applied to other Jedi lacking material, or even a few others? Heck, why not Coleman Kcaj? Poor Ongree has to be the most mysterious of the council. Okay, back on topic. :p

    I'm not inclined to support this petition, as like Humble and Kualan, I'm somewhat laid back/selective/detached on this matter. There's good and bad to be found in both versions, and I find that it's nothing worth feeling nerd rage about so long as I enjoy myself. I understand these are MY views and everyone's entitled to their own, but I'm just sayin', that's what I do. [face_peace]

    I'm reminded of the DC Animated Universe, which has been allowed to grow and develop on its own separate from the comics. Could be a productive option (A GL-On-Screen Universe and an EU-Off-Screen Universe), though I'm not sure if it would be tolerated.

    I don't think we should enforce too many shackles as far as the storytelling of TCW is concerned. On the other hand, I DO agree that some limits can encourage very creative thinking, and respect for fans is good, so there's that middle ground to look for. But in the long run, my biggest priority is to enjoy myself, because I feel that continuity should serve the franchise, not the other way around. What that entails, of course, is wholly a matter of opinion.

    I do feel sorry for EU fans, as I suspect that something like Piell's death could be compared to killing off Obi-Wan or Yoda or Mace Windu within the show, and is far less easily written as 'happening at the same time' or whatnot.

    But at the end of the day, I'm afraid I'm just not cut out for getting all up in arms over a fictional universe. [face_peace]

    At any rate, I certainly don't know where this petition will take you. I do wish you luck and hope that, whatever the future holds, it will hopefully be beneficial to the largest number of fans possible. :)
  21. DarthPhilosopher Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2011
    star 4
    To be honest I like what George has done with the continuity. Personally a lot of the EU, to me at least, is often built upon illogic, and it itself doesn?t seem to meld well together. For instance the portrayal of the Battle of Ruusan with spears, when two thousand years earlier looked just like the films. While I respect the concepts of the EU ? and while I at one time accepted it all ? I now think of it more as ?potential? storylines you can believe or not believe. At the same time however, as I have outlined elsewhere, I think George should be respectful to the EU and not attempt to blatantly destroy it and leave entire storylines destitute. While it doesn?t affect me it does affect many other fans.

    To me the continuity is episodes I, II, III, IV, V and VI, as well as The Clone Wars and any other TV series created by Lucas (or potential ?successor? team). I also include The Force Unleashed and I hope that George maintains that storyline. All other stuff is either select EU stories, EU concepts or Fan-Stories.

    To be honest I see more of a contrast with Germany during the interwar period in some respects. It is apparent ? and this is probably one of the only things the episodes Corruption and The Academy are worthwhile ? that the ?New Mandalorian? government is weak and it is beginning to collapse because of its strict pacifist laws. While it may have prospered to some extent, with the crisis of the Republic in civil war, it is beginning to corrupt itself back to its former ways. Just like Germany following World War 1, it was initially in serious strife, it was then able to prosper for some period of time, and then it collapsed again with the Great Depression. Essentially the entire concept of a once militarist society being placed under a strictly demilitarised and pacifist state is incredibly similar to interwar Germany.

    I see Pre Vizsla as an Adolf Hitler, and I think it would be a great storyline if you have a situation of the Mandalorians rising under a new fascist government. Would it be to controversial for the fascist solute to be used? Probably.

    But then again I can see what you are saying about Germany ? and even Japan ? following the Second World War, giving they did adopt serious pacifist laws. I guess what we are seeing in The Clone Wars could be a hypothetical collapse of one of these societies. Just like democracies degenerate if not reformed and fall to Imperialism, so to do pacifist societies built upon old militarism often fall to far right ideals.
  22. Swashbucklingjedi Game Winner

    Game Winner
    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2010
    star 5
    [face_laugh].... Pre is far more bad*ss though with cool armor and all:p - Hitler was nothing like a great warrior- his exploits in WW1 are greatly exaggerated by propaganda.....but yeah i get your meaning not too bad parallel but still i always find it funny when you bring Hitler up...i think Satine already has deathmark on her forehead she won't live past ROTS or then she has to go into the exile or something... perhaps... to Tatooine[face_laugh]
    "To Tatooine. To his family send him" "Oh- I will GLADLY take a child there and... oh i well.. watch over him there.... just in case....I'm not at all interested in certain blonde living as barkeeper in Mos Eisley... cough cough..."
  23. deafblindandmute Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2009
    star 1
    wait, going by the EU, wouldn't the hitler analouge be... Spar?
  24. DarthPhilosopher Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2011
    star 4
    Obviously Hitler wasn?t a great warrior as it would appear Pre Vizsla is, however the premise and the ideology which they enforce are much the same. All we need is for Vizsla to enact ?racism? against the Kalevalans for ?destroying and undermining? Mandalorian society and their policies would be almost exactly the same... restoring militarism, aggressive patriotism, writing ?crimes? against their state... Heck, Pre Vizsla even has that 1930?s haircut with the shaved ?neck? of the hairline, not to mention he would seem an idealistic ?Aryan? as per the Nazi?s description of such a race (yes, I know Hitler didn?t have blonde hair and blue eyes). Dave has even said Mandalore is much like interwar Germany. As for what will happen to Satine; I can see her being assassinated in some form.

    Heh, I like Pre Vizsla better... [face_not_talking]... but yes you are quite right in many ways.
  25. ILuvJarJar Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 19, 2008
    star 6
    I can't comment because I don't have much knowledgeable on the EU.
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