Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by ImNotAStarWarsFanboy, Mar 28, 2011.
Haha, we made the same point.
But only one of use has a monkey-lizard... I'll slink away in shame.
Absolutely, George Lucas has every right to tell whatever stories he wants in his own universe. The petition never said otherwise. It just asked him to please TRY and avoid obliterating their beloved EU. People have every right to complain and get upset when something they've loved for decades gets rendered uncanon by GL. They can't say "GL can't do that!" but they certainly can say "I wish he hadn't done that!" Can GL create a story that renders the whole Thrawn Trilogy completely uncanon? Sure. Can people bitch about it when he does? Most definitely.
I suppose I agree with that, except that I don't see the point in complaining. I mean I understand that they do, but in my opinion people need to accept that the EU is just place-holder stuff, especially where it comes to concepts that originated with Lucas.
Science-fiction and fantasy were not respected genres in literature for a long, long time because they were "pulp" genres, so I wouldn't think that pulp literature would be any less deserving of respect than other kinds of literature. I understand there's a language barrier, but I wouldn't deny that Robert E. Howard's original Conan the Barbarian tales from the 1920's are "high art," nowadays (as opposed to during his lifetime) he gets the respect he deserves.
Gry-You see thats the point, the try and please is not a subject that should be up for debate or petition, according to the naysayers. GL as a creator can do anything with his material, even override existing stuff. He said it once, their is his stuff nd everything else. Its the EU that needs to fit in with the movies and not vice versa. It was one of the reasons why I could never undertand why Traviss took to heart some of the mandalore stuff.
I'm not in total agreement, since at times I beleive that the EU has done better Jedi and Sith stories than GL.
The funny thing is that this was evident the very first time back in 2005 when they said they were going to do a clone wars series that was different from the 2-D version. Nobody really thought that GL would get seriously involved, but he did to the point were every story either comes from him or is dervied from extensive meetings with him. Gilroy was really the one that tried to keep the series within the bounds of the EU, and I think he got replaced for the very same reason. He said a short while ago, the source material must be respected, and we all know that GL does not think that way.
For me personally, I miss Gilroy, beucase he had a good working relationship with Dark Horse. That meant, that given the time, Gilroy could have told stories in the comic books that could not be told in the cartoon due to budget constrains. Let me tell you, in the 12 issues, 1 free story, and 2 digests, he told some good stuff that was on par with season 1. Now that he's gone from the series, we've gotten hippy dippy explanations that the series was not selling as opposed to Legacy when the clone wars was out selling or on par with the malignantly delayed Dark Times series (which many of you like). Now that Gilroy is gone, you practically have to buy the UK stuff which is now at issues 19
Even though those stories are interesting they are nowhere near what Dark Horse can put out. Maybe now that the series is getting amuch more serious, Dark Horse might get Ostrander and do some sort of tie-in.
Look what BC posted in Lit:
For the record: this is not intended as bait. I just thought it would be appropriate in this topic.
Frankly, I find the word "integrity" and "EU" used together to be laughable, especially when compared to the Clone Wars. I do understand why people might get upset when a story they liked is ignored.. but so much of the EU is terrible, why should some of it be considered canon when other parts aren't? Lucas himself has said he doesn't consider anything but his material to be canon and even if you do insist of working it all in, I don't understand why people continue to split hairs whenever something doesn't quite mesh.
I think the writers have shown a lot of respect to the EU by trying to work it in when possible.. But I strongly believe they shouldn't shoehorn in any of it for the sake of fanservice or if it's to detriment of the story. Fore example, changing Aura Sing's backstory to get rid of the jedi stuff was definitely a good move.
Just for some perspective: when I was a kid I had a comic in which Jabba the Hut ( a yellow-furred Nimbanel by today's nomenclature ) avoided his ship being destroyed by space termites by agreeing to drop the bounty on Han Solo. Then, after a duration of less time than that which elapsed between the releases of Jedi Twilight and Citadel Rescue, Han's "death mark" magically reappeared in TESB. Not to mention the fact that Nimbanel Jabba was blown straight to continuity hell three years later.
Why create a petition because of TCW, when they ignored every single contradiction that has happen over 30 years? No petition against the movies contradicting the EU, no petition against the EU contradicting the EU, no petition against Genndy's CW contradicting the EU. But when it's about TCW, these people arrive in full force.
I see too much hipocrisy.
Dude, get up to date. That was Jabba the Younger, who stole his name from Jabba the Hutt and was a tattoo artist who had painted a "death mark" on Han, which then faded after the inks were eaten by the termites. That's seamless continuity right there.
In the case of the films, they aren't being made anymore so it's pretty much a moot point. The same goes for the micro series, plus the fact that I personally give that a little leeway since LoE and the Genndy Coruscant battle were being produced at the same time.
It's not a moot point when there was no petition at the time they were made/released. Same with the Genndy's CW, and the rest.
I signed this petition, because I think its a great idea. Do I think Lucas will listen to it? No. But, It still makes me cringe - just a little - when existing continuity is trodden on so carelessly. One of my favorite things about being a Star Wars Fan used to be the continuity. That it all worked together. So, I signed it, for what it's worth.
I still fail to understand this petitions worth, nor do I think it deserves legitimacy.
The Expanded Universe has contradicted itself in countless and extreme ways in the past, yet we still fail to see a petition. The Expanded Universe has contradicted the films in various ways in the past yet we fail to see a petition. However now that The Clone Wars contradicts a few minor storylines the Expanded Universe fans rally to sign a petition.
I am all for a preservation of continuity, however unfortunately the hypocrisy at calling out this series is beyond measurability. The overwriting which this series has conducted is minor in contrast to the extreme continuity issues already evident within the Expanded Universe. In regards to the wider continuity of the Expanded Universe this series has changes little and for the most part the continuity still exists relatively undamaged.
I see a lot of this ?do as we say not as we do? mentality from the creators of this petition. Unless you are launching a campaign to fix all continuity issues in all areas of media then this is a completely hypocritical petition. You can?t tell The Clone Wars to fix these ? relatively minor ? continuity problems when the Expanded Universe continues, and will continue, to contradict the films and itself in various ways.
Oh, FANTASTIC, Barriss. Now whenever I think of you, I'll have THAT image stuck in my head.
Brilliant job BC.
The Monkey-Lizard told me to do it.
Ah, your devotion to his Almighty Awesomeness is admirable!
The question burning on everyone's mind is: did you also manufacture that image?
I can take credit for the photshopping, but Google supplied the Canon Cannon.
So I wrote this post, my first to this forum after literally YEARS of browsing. I got to 1,360 words and then decided it was too wordy, to opinion based, and wouldn't have been received well.
I'm now going to attempt to summarize. I think admiring and respecting George Lucas and all he's accomplished is a must if you wish to be considered a true Star Wars fan. I don't like trying to say who's a fan and who's not, but this I feel pretty confident in requiring from my fellow fans. That being said, respect and admiration doesn't equal blind faith and god-level reverence. George is human. Humans can and almost always do make mistakes. Most mortals have boundaries to keep us in check. George doesn't. And judging from comments from many inside LucasFilm, he's created an environment where he will never have boundaries. He has a problem with any sort of authority. He's said as much himself. Lucky for us this lack of boundaries led to the creation of this wonderful universe.
What I don't get is how people like Jason and Jimmy can think that it?s cool that George has created this environment where no one can question him. People fear him (according to Jimmy's description, and based on things Dave Filoni has let slip), they fear if they bring anything to his attention that he might not like, or that contradicts him he will fire them. I've seen many of you argue that it can't possibly be like that. I argue that it can. He runs a private business. They are probably all signed to at-will employment contracts. That means they can be fired whenever for whatever reason. I'm sure they would also receive some sort of severance package. Even if it?s not 100% true that question George would get you fired, it's fairly clear that employees at LucasFilm at least FEEL that's what would happen. Whatever many of you may think, that's not cool.
Does George have every legal right to have this much control? Of course he does. He is the sole owner of anything and everything Star Wars. If it has the logo, he makes money from it and controls whatever that products destiny may be. There is no argument against that.
Should he? That's the question that is harder to define.
Before I delve into the righteousness of the petition/GL's attitude toward the EU I'd like to address the flimsy argument that the EU isn't perfect within itself.
I get the feeling that MANY of the people that make that argument aren't aware of how the EU worked in the past. First, it?s been pointed out many times that Heir to the Empire was promoted as the official LucasFilm continuation of the saga. Furthermore, Bantam was the only official EU licensee. I'm not 100% but even Dark Horse works weren't considered EU. Certainly none of the original Del Rey novels, or the RPG guides, or the Marvel comics were considered part of the EU. It was only the novels and perhaps the Dark Horse comics (though these two were kept separate for the most part). George gave Heir to the Empire his official blessing, and back in those days we were led to believe the entire selection of novels from 1991-1998 had his official blessing. It wasn't until Del Rey took over the book rights, and LucasFilm created LucasBooks, that EVERYTHING outside of the movies was attempted to be brought into the EU. I'm not saying the continuity was perfect before 1999, but that's when Del Rey started pumping out the fiction, and trying to include their previous works (Splinter of the Mind's Eye, Marvel Comics, etc) in the EU continuity that it got really complicated, even convoluted. I still resent this change. It hasn't been all bad, but it's taken Del Rey until just this year (some 12 years after the official took over the EU) to figure out that pumping out as much fiction in one year as you possibly can isn't always the best business practice. Perhaps if they hadn't been trying to break publishing records then many of the continuity issues that have occurred recently might not have happened at all. Again, this is a decision that LucasFilm made and ultimately GL had to sign off on,
Basher I appreciate you taking the time to write all that. I think its the best argument made yet. I feel people that are on the opposite side of this continuity debate are failing to see the main point of our argument and if they still don't understand it after reading your argument then they never will.
Not saying they have to agree with it and I respect everyone's opinion (because after all this is a fictional world and really doesn't matter) but I want them to understand the argument because not all but many in my opinion have still not grasped what we have been trying to say.
I agree with most of what Bashar said. However, I don't think it is a matter of making George aware of the existing continuity of an element he's about to use. From what Dave tells us, he usually points out to George most major issues with EU elements he's tackling. The problem is that George liberally picks and choses what we wants to preserve, and what he wants to ignore.