Clone Wars Petition of the 2000: Preserving the Integrity of the Star Wars Saga

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by ImNotAStarWarsFanboy, Mar 28, 2011.

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  1. koonfan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 15, 2008
    star 4
    I really do wish we had a list of what was SAVED in the creative process, in the interests of fairness. Y'know, choices which seemed incredibly bad or unnecessary that WERE avoided. Who knows how many of those things were cut out? They only get mentioned in passing, behind-the-scenes commentary, like Plo Koon fighting in space, carbon freezing ploys, or Trandoshans displaying chameleon like abilities.

    We only notice the errors on-screen, and that, in my humble opinion, paints it in a rather bad light, giving the impression that he does it A LOT in these meetings.

    It's a bad/unnecessary thing that happens, to be sure, but I don't think it's the whole picture either. How many times, I wonder, has George gone "Y'know, you're right, guys. Good catch. Let's try it another way.", and we never knew about it? I know he's got the prequels and recent history as a track record, but surely the fact that he is warmly regarded as a nice, generous guy might lend itself to something where he gives the other guys a break? :confused:

    Of course, because the blade cuts both ways, some of the cut choices were actually GOOD or MORE in-continuity, but I shan't bring those up because the wounds might still cut deep. ;)
  2. Executor_of_Order66 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 14, 2009
    star 2
    You are correct about us not seeing what has not been changed, however isn't what is important is the final product. (although I applaud those that stand up for unnecessary changes).

    I am able to work with most of the changes brought into the clone wars and for some I really like. I was even going to give Even Peill's death a chance when someone explained why they choose the route they did. Some other things that have been retcon have been explained by Dave but with this no one explained why this route was taken. Is it George's responsibility? No but it is someones responsibility to explain why it happen. Would have been nice if Dave would have said something like he did over Echo's death. Then we get this bull **** comment from the keeper of the holocron only saying this is Even Peill's real death. They knew they opened up a can of worms with this and no one address it. Lucas may not have to give us an answer but LucasFilm owes us fans an explanation why this changed happen. If I wasn't already off the fence at that time, then I was after that.

    I bet this petition would not have happen if they didn't kill Even but even if they did I bet they would have received a lot less backlash if someone would have given us an answer. Thats what PR is for.
  3. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    The aspect I find most telling about the Piell situation is that not only did they change his death, but they also stole the whole "I have to give you vital information as I lie here dying" thing from the original EU death scene. So it's just another case of higher-level canon strip-mining lower-level canon for ideas. The films have done this for years.
  4. vong333 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2003
    star 4
    You know, I've got a question that just burns my mimd. Why would GL not have a right to tell a story within his universe that he created? Okay, so the EU did this and stated that, but if GL is doing his show and whats to take that EU concept that rightfully by contract belongs to him and change it around to what he thinks is a better thing or whatever, who's to stop him from doing it? Legally, your toast. There's no legal ground, maybe sentimental because of the fans that buy the products. Like I said before, Christian Taylor in his interviews stated what we already know from GL. He will do his thing regardless and they regard him as the source. So if they go that route, then what? Do you gusy just stop buying the products? Or watch the clone wars? Didn't the toy line for the last three years rank number 1 in sales? Are anyone here going to change that? Nope

    And I don't agree with Basher, in fact I agree with the podcast group. I enjoy there candid response and there coverage of material. They even get a chance to talk to the poeple involve with the everything star wars. I, personally also, enjoy star wars without having to worry about continuity. In fact, Dark Horse needs to start telling an alternate universe type stories like Marvel and DC comics. Its bad that even Legacy, now coming to the end can not even surpass the top 100. Even the Darth Vader comic disappeared from the top 100.
  5. Barriss_Coffee Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2003
    star 6
    ^ We've been here before. There's a distinct difference between what Lucas can do, and what would be, y'know, the nice-guy thing to do.

    And I think what a lot of people are missing is that Lucas knows this too. Which is why he's never gone out and talked trash about the EU like some folks around here.
  6. Darth_Tarkus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2011
    star 4
    I was against Star Wars having a multiverse at first, but after some thought I've come to the conclusion that it wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing. There are few things, if any, I could imagine that would be cooler than a series in a parallel dimension where Darth Vader actually is the name of a Jedi Knight who falls to the Dark Side and betrays and murders Anakin Skywalker, literally.
  7. Robimus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    Legacy was the second highest selling Dark Horse Comic(Behind Buffy) at the time of its cancelation. Why they cancelled it is quite beyond my programming capacity to understand.

    There was actually quite a backlash against Dark Horse over this so it doesn't surprise me if its numbers have fallen off. People felt a sense of betrayal from Dark Horse, both towards themselves as customers and John Ostrander and Jan Duursema, the creative team.

    The plan had always been for Legacy to carry on well past 50 issues, but then Dark Horse cut it off abruptly.
  8. Swashbucklingjedi Game Winner

    Game Winner
    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2010
    star 5
    I think best thing in OT was that such a simple "bad guy who killed your father" was not truth- all the depth would have been lost if "good father" was just slain by a "bad father".....

    multiverse would be good way to get rid of some EU but then again it makes it very confusing because movies are shared by EU and TCW both there is already too much connection if these are separate parallel universe..... only little things- Even Piell being the biggest- are impossible to retcon...... yet i would like to see more infinities material- what if Palpatine would've been betrayed by Dooku and Dooku would be the Emperor instead he would've killed Anakin aboard Invisible Hand (that would require prophecy to be bantha poodoo then) and he would've taken Obi-Wan to be his apprentice- but OT with battledroids instead of stormtroopers, Obi-Wan and Grievous or Ventress instead of Vader- haha would be fun infinities story totally non-canon but non-canon material can be fun too....
  9. vong333 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2003
    star 4
    Now Bariss wait a minute, I may not agree with the petition, bur I do like the EU and I don't trash it as junk either. I really could care less about whether GL destroys a story or not, because, I, like everyone else here can decide what they can like and not like. Or include or not include. My point on Dark Horse is that in the last month, both IDW and Image surpassed Dark Horse in sales. Legacy, which is now at the tail end did not cross the top 100. To me, this is not acceptable. Especially a great series that is coming to a close, and we know that for a long time, we are not going to get anything as remotely succesful as that series was. Why the drop? Did some people/fanbase just quit? Maybe issue 5 will pcik it up, but this series has to go with a bang.

    I also noticed something, why is it that the season 2 of the clone wars on blue ray look different than the one from itunes? The colors seam brighter in the itunes version than the blue ray one. Example of this is when Satine in the third episode of the Mandalore Trilogy is taking the shot at the police droid, on the blue ray its like a faded blue, but on the itunes version its a bright sky type of blue. What gives with this?
  10. vong333 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2003
    star 4
    Swash- I when I made that comment about Dark Horse, I really meant it seriouly that a mutliverse would be a good thing. I didn't phrase it like you did and to some it may have come out as bashing. But I wasn't bashing dark horse or the EU. I was in such a hurry that I posted it that way.

    Petition aside, I've taken a serious look at star wars over the last 16 years and noticed a trend that has not been talked about at all, or maybe it has, but when addresed it was done in a different kiddie type fashion. The last almost 16-18 years, all we have gotten are stories that have to fit within a universe. Okay, back then it was not bad because we came out of the dark ages and wanted to have star wars, especially if it could relate to prior material. Then it just became an obsession, that things had to match and be consistent. Kudos to Lucasfilm and everyone at Lucasland for that, because they made the best franchise that actually can succeed in comic books, novels, role playing games, topps trading cards, video games, toys, magazines, and non-fiction books. Heck, just reading the script books and books on the process of making star wars in it of it self was just as awesome as reading an adventure story from Heir to the Empire.

    My thing is this, star wars can have the EU type of stories coming out in comic books like they are doing now, but, a caveat that should be thrown in their is, why not produce a monthly, 64 page issue comic book, ala Tales, minus the campy funky art at times, and tell stories that don't have to fit in the continuity. Stories about the adventures after A New Hope, or between Empire and Jedi. Stuff that doesn;t have to match the already established lore. Marvel and DC have been doing it for years on their properties and look at Green Lantern, Flash, Superman, Wonder Woman, The Avengers, Iron Man, The Hulk. There not doing bas at all, in fact, taking a look at the last 6 months of the top 100 list from previews and you can see that there comics are usually in the top. Why couldn't star wars have something like this? Something to really re-invent star wars with fresh stories. I just feel that things are too limited, and when I talk to friends at the comic shop they tend to agree with me and steer clear of star wars material due to the above listed boring story told time and again.

  11. Swashbucklingjedi Game Winner

    Game Winner
    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2010
    star 5
    Well i didn't even read your comment:p i read Tarkus' comment and i made my own- when i said "get rid of some eu" i didn't even mean Dark Horse :p besides it was humorous comment anyway:p there is no eu everyone would say "we need to get rid off" it's hard thing really because it's a matter of opinion which is not "worthy EU".... Dark Horse has some good stuff it's not like all comics need to be abandoned but problem is this overall comiccontinuity there that goes from The Clone Wars era all the way to Legacy if that would be moved to be in different parallel universe i would be just happy to get rid of K'khruk and A'Sharadd Hett and whole Legacy stuff..... because they won't fit into movie-canon in my opinion......
  12. Yodaminch Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2002
    star 5
    YES.

    For the past few years, ALL areas of Lucasfilm LTD.'s marketing have been giving fans the shaft. And the fans have started to leave. Consider:

    Lucasarts: Pushed out Force Unleashed which was a good game (not GREAT) but changed canon. Then they released the far subpar TFU2. Add in: cancellation of Battlefront 3, NO KOTOR 3 but instead a money grabbing TOR, and few sequels to other established and liked games along with other subpar releases.

    Hasbro: Abysmal distribution of product, low quality in paint application and materials and high prices. Clear favoritism towards Clone Wars.

    Del Rey: Atrocious LOTF series. Followed up with subpar and more pricey FOTJ. Other books ranged from superb (Shadows of Mindor) to subpar.

    Dark Horse: Cancellation of highly popular Knights of the Old Republic, Cancellation of just as popular Legacy. Frequent delays with books such as Dark Times.


    Then you add in the fact that established canon from sources billed to fans as part of the one and only Star Wars universe is being overridden and changed by whatever new product Lucas and Lucasfilm wish to focus on. You're going to upset a few people and a few people are going to get tired of the abuse.

    So to those who keep saying can't Lucas do whatever he wants, the answer is he can, but don't expect the customers to accept it.

  13. Darth_Tarkus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2011
    star 4
    I totally agree with you on that, it's not the direction I would've wanted the movies to go in, but thinking of the possibilities of comics that take place in parallel universes of the Star Wars galaxy that came to mind and I couldn't help but think it'd make for an awesome series. At first I didn't like the idea but that would make it worth it for me, that's something I would like to see.
  14. DarthPhilosopher Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2011
    star 4
    Off topic, however this has been discussed at Rebelscum.com a lot lately:

    This criticism of Hasbro is largely unfounded.

    Distribution- There are a number of factors which contribute to this many of which do not rely on Hasbro. The primary factor is the amount of product retailers buy; this is the main factor which contributes to distribution of product, and is almost completely out of Hasbro control. Furthermore you have the following events all coinciding at the same time which has created what is normally a ?typical? quell and has made it rather significant.

  15. Economic Instability ? Series of Crisis?, Instable Euro-Sector, etc

  16. Japanese Earthquake ? has damaged the progress and distribution of materials to manufacturing sectors as well as shipments

  17. Poor Case Assortments (Hasbro?s Fault)

  18. Shifting of Priority to a significant Blockbuster Season of Merchandise ? creates poor retailer purchasing

  19. Redistribution of infrastructure during TCW inter-season period (Speculation)

  20. General Price Increase on all goods

  21. Probably a couple more I am forgetting


  22. All of these factors have coincided to create the current situation. Was some of this Hasbro?s fault? Yes it certainly was. However the primary factor was poor case assortments with illogical choice of product within those cases (creating bottleneck). This has contributed to distribution however various other factors also have and as such it is illogical to blame the distribution on Hasbro in my opinion. At least the current situation... other years have been different.

    Low Quality Product- Alright I will agree on this in a couple of recent instances, however generally the product has been exceptional lately.

    High Prices- This isn?t Hasbro?s fault (though I am not sure if you were directing this towards them or if it was a general observation). Everything is increasing in price.

    The Clone Wars Favouritism- This is simple business and should not be a fault of Hasbro?s. Firstly it is likely Lucasfilm?s direction that priority be given to TCW line; I am almost certain of this. Secondly children and perants buying for children consist of the majority of their market. With TVC being a primarily collector-focused line TCW is obviously given priority as a logical business decision. Thirdly this logical business decision allows for the collector-focused product to flourish due to it keeping Star Wars as the #1 most profitable licence.

    Sorry to go off topic.

    :-B
  23. Robimus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    No, there is legitimacy to the critcism of Hasbro. I can only speak on the Canadian end of the retail experience. Here we have "Hasbro Canada" which makes decisions way ahead of time as to what assortments will be made available to retailers and which will not. They have admitted this in the Hasbro Canada Q & A's.

    Add in 12 figure case assortments with only two or three new figures per assortment, a stylized product featuring TCW which contains a large number of figures that won't stand up on their own, so on, so forth.

    In the end they try to do all they can(they did manage to sneak some of the K'Kruhk EU wave into the country after initially having said it wouldn't be available), but its incredibly frustrating to collectors who have to constantly top up collections on the secondary market because Hasbro can't ensure that all basic product reaches retail shelves.(Something they did do a few years back in these parts).

    Personally I've stopped collecting TCW figures because of this spotty distribution after collecting a lot near the start. Part of the blame does lie with the retailers but most of it falls on Hasbro. I've talked with retailers who want to order in new product only to be told by Hasbro Canada that this wave or that wave simply won't be made available to the marketplace.
  24. Senator Kelberry Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2010
    star 3
    These statements deserve some scrutiny. Not the specific examples, though I happen to agree with the one about Hasbro. I personally think it's hilarious that multiple places are trying to charge upwards of $25-$30 for the new Ahsoka Tano figure which is so mega-rare that I had no trouble at all buying it, in stock, off of Toys R Us' website in perfect condition for the $8 MSRP.

    No, specifically what I want to look at are the statements that fans are leaving and customers won't accept what Lucasfilm is doing.

    When a fan "leaves" a commercial enterprise like Star Wars, it essentially means they decided to stop spending money on any new item that enterprise produces. Does this hurt Lucasfilm's bottom line? Of course. If people aren't spending money, then they aren't making any. I also have no doubt in my mind that yodaminch is correct in saying there are fans who are actually doing this.

    What no one ever likes to address, though, I think, is the fact that fans who leave are being replaced by other fans who WILL spend the money. Fans who will happily fork over their paychecks to Lucasfilm every week just as some of us might once have. But where are these fans coming from? They're coming from the next generation. It is difficult, even for me, to acknowledge the passage of time, but the truth is, we were all three years younger when TCW started. We were 12 years younger than we are now when the prequels came out. Some of us weren't even born when the original film came out, but were just old enough to appreciate it anyway through the magic of VHS. I'd be willing to bet money that there are Star Wars fans now who have no idea what VHS is.

    How must a younger fan see the Star Wars universe? I suspect while there are plenty of exceptions, most of them perceive it in a way far different than people who grew up with the original films. Those born the year of Ep1 in 1999 are just at an age to think TCW is awesome, and to not care how much EU it may or may not be trampling over. Not because they hate the EU, but because it wasn't the first thing they were exposed to. Even if the retcon is explained to them after the fact, it's too late. They're most likely to accept the first version they saw. Fans of this age make their parents give Lucasfilm money for current DVDs, toys, comics and anything else that tells the story they're used to, not the one that may have come before. Some may even look at what has come before and say...that's cool...but not as good as this new stuff.

    I can even provide a personal example. Star Trek. Being a child of the 80s, I wasn't alive when the original Star Trek series was made in the 1960s. In the 80s I knew of it, but didn't even really care for the films. As a child, the 2nd one scared me, the 3rd one I didn't understand at all, and the 4th one...well ok, the 4th was really funny. I liked it. By then, though, came Star Trek TNG. I loved ST:TNG. To this day I still love it, and I love it MORE than the original series. When I was a kid I thought the original series was garbage. Corny, cheesy, and horrible special effects. These days, of course, I know how ground breaking it was, and have a great deal of respect for the social commentary it put forth, and I acknowledge that without it, nothing that came after would have been. Still, despite all that, I still don't like it. I still w
  25. Darth_Tarkus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2011
    star 4
    There are so many interesting points here, Senator Kelberry.

    I have been a Star Wars fan for as long as I can remember. I was born in 1988, and when I was really small, years before the 1996 re-master/re-release, my dad used to rent the Star Wars films on VHS one at a time from the local library and watch them with my brother and I. I still remember when the movies were re-released because I went from being the only one my age who knew what Star Wars was to a situation where literally everyone knew what it was. I was thrilled that year to get my first Star Wars action figure: Obi-Wan Kenobi, from when the Power of the Force series first launched and it had literally 6 - 10 figures rather than the hundreds it seems like there are now. He's still chillin' on my dresser.

    Anyway, the point is I've been a fan for a really long time. So here's where I fit in in the situation you're describing: even though I am a long-time fan I am new to TCW. Your post makes me think that this probably isn't uncommon. While some people who have been following the series may be frustrated by something like the "alternative" death of Master Piell into ceasing their viewership of the series, others like me who have been long time Star Wars fans, in addition to the younger generation who may not have even seen all or any of the films, are just starting to jump on-board.

    I definitely think you're right here, inevitably you will have one category of loyalists that always go with the TCW-option, one category of loyalists
  26. Senator Kelberry Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2010
    star 3
    Oh absolutely. I would not want such reasoning to be seen as a blank check. If something were to try, far in the future, to say maybe Vader wasn't Luke's father I'd be the first to scream, but I think what I'm trying to say is that SOME change is inevitable. How much, I think, will always be a lively source of debate, I'm sure.

  27. DarthPhilosopher Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2011
    star 4
    Notice I said largely unfounded. I myself know exactly what it is like to have a division of Hasbro which doesn?t distribute its product right... Hasbro Australia. We, much like the Europeans, have terrible product distribution for which I largely blame Hasbro Australia. However I am mainly talking about the US situation which, unlike the international situation, doesn?t have the continuously terrible situation.

    So I am mainly talking about the US sector which I believe, as previously outlined, has many factors contributing to it outside of Hasbro.
  28. Yodaminch Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2002
    star 5
  29. AhsokaMiro Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2008
    star 3
    You're right on the money when you say it's the last 15 years or so, and what you describe is pretty close to the "EU" that existed during and just after the OT films. Marvel in particular told stories within the limits of LFL, but they went off and did stuff the was totally contradicted when the next film came out, and we all went, oh well, those were fun stories but I guess Jabba the Hut (sic) in't a yellow biped walrus after all, let's move along. It was never a big deal because you always knew the next film might/probably would contradict stuff, and off you went.

    It's hard for me to understand how the idea of a coherent EU continuity survived the Prequels when stuff like Boba Fett's origin was totally rewritten and it boggles my mind that anyone even tries to still fit the old Marvel Mandalorian stories into the new ones, so I just don't get retcon-mania or the vital importance of making everything in the EU fit. But my impression is that a lot of fans thought that once the films ended, things would settle down with no steamroller in sight, and the fact that TCW showed up and is now afforded the same level of continuity overwriting powers as the films. However, at a root level, anyone taking a job in the EU now has the same brief that Alan Dean Foster and Roy Thomas had in 1978: LFL gives them a framework and sets them free in the knowledge that whatever they come up with might well be contradicted by future decisions from Lucas/LFL themselves. It's probably best for everyone's mental health to accept that; otherwise we should still be angry that Jabba in ROTJ doesn't look like the yellow biped walrus dude from the Marvel series.
  30. vong333 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2003
    star 4
    yodaminch and AshokaMiro- Both of you are right on.


    I rememeber when KOTOR video game was released, it became known as far as scores were concerned as the possible Halo of star wars. Then came out KOTOR 2 and the cut content came out and the game was then viewed for what it was. A quickly put together game, that Lucasarts rushed out to cash in on the success of the first one. After getting a bunch of awards at the begining, the game was revealed as a fraud. This would be the first sucky sequel to an awesome game.

    Then we move on to Battlefront. Both part 1 and 2 were damn good and was looking forward to part three. What did we get instead? A bunch of PSP DS games that in my opinion failed to capture the granduer of the first two. A very succesful series, gone down the tubes.

    Then we move on to the Episode 3 video game with the cut up KOTOR 2 music. That was horrible, the only saving grace was the actual movie itself. The movie, got the video game to sell good for that year.

    The only video game to have a very succesful sequel was, yep The Lego games. It's okay for a good time, but did little to add good stories to the line.

    Then we get TFU. Not a great game, but a good one with an in-depth story. The multi-media project was really worth collecting. TFU2, well, man, that was just high way robbery. The only thing that I practically liked were the bright light blue blade which was different than the first game. The short game play, the lack of dimension, plus Haden leaving leaving the series in the air really blows. Now you have a series that either this super dude is alive and is going to kill the Alliance memebrs (non- canon) or he's alive and helps Kota and the Alliance...Not possible since Luke is what 6 months away from coming up in A New Hope. So you have an empty incomplete trilogy
  31. vong333 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2003
    star 4
    The we had LOTF, yeap that was real bad. In fact, NJO had class, this other stuff.....made me run into looking at other stories from other franchises to get my sci-fi fix.

    I could go and on and on, and while yes, I was one of the ones that said that GL can do what he wants. I'm also saying that just doing one cartoon show that has all the charatcers from the prequels, and some from of the ot series just to have an official tie-in between Episode 2 and 3 is also in my opinion sinking interest in the star wars line.

    Star Wars is becoming less and less creative and more and more repetiive and mundane and predicatable to boot.
  32. Swashbucklingjedi Game Winner

    Game Winner
    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2010
    star 5
    haha so agreed- TFU2 was not a bad game but..... it was not a full game- where were all those rest of the levels at least 3 levels were missing from the incomplete story and yet this incomplete game costs as much as full one[face_tired]
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