Clone Wars Petition of the 2000: Preserving the Integrity of the Star Wars Saga

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by ImNotAStarWarsFanboy, Mar 28, 2011.

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  1. JediBendu Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 13, 1999
    star 3
    Dear sweet lord, this is a very sad day. The original petition is ridiculous IMO, why should Lucas have to conform his view of characters he created himself, ideas he came up with to what someone else wrote in the meantime. Even Piell was his character. The Mandalorians were something he came up with. It's his universe and no one should have been in doubt ever since Jango Fett shook up events that anything that was written could be overwritten. Hell, he said so way back when Heir to the Empire came out.

    Then the forcecast rant was the usual over the top rantiness. That's why we listen. They never said that GL was always perfect, but they defended his right to his creation. Yes, they got a bit too ranty and personal, but when you know that a presenter has a certain bias then if you keep on listening then you will see that bias again and again.

    But the response from the petition was vastly more smug and insulting. The one thing I truly hate is people who start attacking how other people argue - whilst doing exactly the same things themselves, personally attacking someone whilst simultaneously complaining about personal attacks in a comment.

    And, to be frank, how many people had ever really heard the word historicity before this petition? Sometimes it's better to use simpler words because the complex ones don't really have much meaning to a large chunk of your audience.
  2. Gry Sarth Ex 2x Banhammer Wielding Besalisk Mod

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 1999
    star 5
    The one thing they said that really bugged me is that people should be afraid to approach GL with criticism or advice.

    That, I think, is the single, greatest problem with how GL seems to run things, and to hear fans support it out of a misguided sense of loyalty is puzzling.
  3. fistofan1 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2009
    star 4
    Wow, Jason Swank's little monologue was a total overreaction. If he thinks that the petition signers are going overboard, he needs to listen to the extreme things he said. I'm sorry, I love his Clone Wars roundtables, but that segment of the show really made me upset as a fan.
  4. JediBendu Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 13, 1999
    star 3
    I think they more said was that you couldn't tell Lucas what Star Wars was. But maybe I misheard.

    I'm in full agreement that creative types need boundaries to do their best work, and surrounding Lucas with yes men is a sure fire path to failure, but I do believe that ultimately he needs to have the overall creative control and then have other people interpret and deliver it.
  5. ImNotAStarWarsFanboy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2011
    star 5
    In the same regards though, as much as we need to show George love and respect for starting it all and continuing to be so active and passionate about his creation (the side effect of which is lots more great stories for us to enjoy), the least he could do is respect the work that others have done for him and take some relevant existing material (which everybody at LFL knows full well about and has easy access to) into consideration before deciding anything major.

    I feel Swank is exactly the kind of ***-kissing yes man that a franchise like Lucas' has enough of already and doesn't need.
  6. Humble_Jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2004
    star 4
    Having heard the actual Forcecast, it's clear to me that the guy has an outspoken opinion on the subject. But I really can't agree with that facebook reaction to it that got posted. It's true that he's paraphrasing and making the petition out to be a little more than it is, however.

    This guy is not a journalist. He's someone with an opinion.

    I absolutely agree with him in the sense that I thought the open letter was very poorly worded in a way that paints a certain between-the-lines message of its true intent. Just the title of the petition (*points to topic title*) is a clear example of that.

    And the claim that writers that have contributed to Star Wars EU are some of the biggest names in all of literature is ludicrous. Star Wars is pulp material, folks... geez. Sure, there are certain literary qualities to the myth of the movie saga, but at the end of the day it's still pulp fiction. And there's nothing wrong with that. But that extraordinary claim really speaks volumes about the way these people revere the EU as something bigger than it really is. And I think he really puts the finger where it hurts.

    Even though the letter doesn't explicitly address certain things he's extrapolating, from some of the poor wording it's clear from which segment of the fan community this is coming, and he's obviously seen the continuity debates, otherwise he wouldn't be so aware of the subject. The petition doesn't state as much but it's true that this is coming from people who are essentially complaining about Lucas destroying something that was primarily meant to fill the gaps between the trilogies, and everyone knew from the start that it could all be overwritten. I can't help but agree that it is completely backwards.

    I mean come on... where does it end? The amount of EU is so huge that there's just no room to wiggle if they had to take all that into account. Just limiting it to 'unnecessary changes' is a completely abstract idea and way too subjective a concept to interpret.

    The example that if Shadows of the Empire was completely overwritten, his appreciation of the book wouldn't be affected at all, is exactly how I feel about all this.

    It's just like when a game series with many titles gets rebooted with a new origins story which invalidates the old continuity, certain people act as if those games suddenly stop existing and aren't playable any more. I think it's bizarre.

    However, I did feel that example of bringing a source book to a meeting with Lucas was taking it a little over the top, and I wonder how much truth there is in that.
  7. koonfan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 15, 2008
    star 4
    This is crazy. As soon as one party exclaims "I HAVE THE MORAL HIGHGROUND", they fall into a metaphorical sinkhole of Utapauan proportions. [face_plain]

    My initial reaction to the petition was "Well, I'm not with them, but I'm not against them, they sound fairly civil, you could even say they're proposing a middle ground." Then this happens, and we've got the basic 'them-versus-us' politics, with all sorts of 'they are very obviously <negative adjective>, WE are obviously reasonable' statements thrown out. Granted, it doesn't help that a prominent podcast guy is provoking them further, but man.

    I'm with Gry. Both sides have pretty much wound up as...somewhat extreme.

    I'm also with Humble. My appreciation of these fictional items won't diminish. I'm still going to love the fact that my Jaden Korr is (or can be) a saberstaff twirling Kel Dor despite the fact that he is now canonically a dual-wielding human. But again, I've found out that that's not for everyone. :p

    (in jest over the game, not the situation [face_peace]) After all, you might prefer a RODIAN Jaden Korr! ...Nah. Nobody wants Jaden to be a Rodian. [face_laugh]
  8. Robimus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    The petition actually states "some of the greatest names in Science Fiction & Fantasy", which really is accurate.

    Actually several authors who have written within the Star Wars Universe are awards winning Science Fiction and Horror authors(a couple that come to mind are Zahn and Hambly though there are more), another couple(R.A. Salvatore and Terry Brooks) are hugely popular writers.

    The reason they got an oppurtunity to write Star Wars was their critical and financial success elsewhere.

    So to you maybe the Hugo Awards or the Locus Awards are meaningless, or that Science Fiction and Fantasy writing and its writers are not important - but that is by no means shared by millions upon millions of fans of the genre from around the world.

    As to your claims that "we all knew from the beginning", no we really didn't. The excerpt from Splinter of the Minds Eye for one talks about how George wanted other authors to write in his universe, while Heir to the Empire was advertised by LFL as an "official continuation" of the Star Wars Saga.

    Even in recent years George Lucas while I guess trying to uncomplicate the issue by talking about Pillars, fathers, sons and holy ghosts, has only further served to muddle the issue even further, to a point where authors are quiting, books are being cancelled and entire series are being cut off mid story.

    Who are you to decide how big, or how special something is for me? Really I'm not taking your point here at all.
  9. Darth_Tarkus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2011
    star 4
    Splinter of the Mind's Eye (the first ever official EU Star Wars novel, released prior to Ep. V, for those who may not know) was written by Alan Dean Foster, who is considered nothing short of a legend in the field of fantasy/sci-fi authors.
  10. JediBendu Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 13, 1999
    star 3
    And I do beliegve that there has been some definite appreciation shown for others' creations. But he can't be beholden to 20 years of continuity that often he had little involvement in.

    I'd say that's a bit strong and pretty damn rude. Whilst I don't agree with Jason's absolute hatred of the EU and know he goes a bit far on his rants sometimes, he and the forcecast have done quite a lot for Star Wars fans, bringing a lot of people (including myself) back into the fan community.
  11. Swashbucklingjedi Game Winner

    Game Winner
    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2010
    star 5
    JADEN is not rodian in canon??????:eek:- conclusion:canon sucks [face_laugh]

    for me he is is always a rodian[face_not_talking]

    So some guy attacked petition's ideals and received another attack as an answer.... sweet...

    While i disagree with Koonfan about Jaden (I disagree about "no one prefers him as rodian" part[face_laugh] - i've played as all models- Kel Dor as well- nothing against the species while i dislike Plo- Plo would be irritating anyway as rodan or as human etc.
    or wait a minute actually i think i have never finished the game as femalehuman[face_thinking] - but with all others....) i agree with his comment- this really is going towards the dark side entire GL/EU/TCW/CANON discussion "If you're not with me then you're my enemy!"[face_skull]

    It's ridiculous claim GL must no be critisized:confused: - is this religious cult or what- no way critisizing and aggressive bashing are too different things really both parties in this debate are guilty for somewhat childish whining and preferring their own opinions as "better" than opposing ones.... not all of course but there is heroes on both sides.... you know how it goes....:p

    there is no history in SW- and it's all based on GL:s work so feels natural he should've more power than EU-authors- yet he shouldn't misuse the power by simply ignoring their work since fans cannot see the clear difference in his job and job of others- still i'm pretty sure he already knows all fans don't automatically like his version better- but in TCW-team there is people who have knowledge of EU and who try to make it all work- wouldn't worry too much.....

    Petition tells that many fans are not happy with constant changes and they're entitled to their opinion- some may think petition is not needed but that's their opinion it's not better at all just different- No one should say "You must not have that opinion!" that's really acting like some supreme power-

    i don't sign this i have no interest to protect EU so much while i like some material i don't care about the overall continuity there is much stuff i would like to get rid of... that's my opinion no need to fight[:D] it's not that big thing it would be worth of fighting for really- that's my opinion......
  12. ImNotAStarWarsFanboy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2011
    star 5
    Well if he single-handedly persuaded me to get back into Star Wars I might have a different opinion, but seeing as he didn't I see him as a guy who reveres Lucas like a demi-God and worships everything he says, which is sad really. No-one should be required as a Star Wars fan to take Lucas's word as gospel, no-one should have to think he's perfect and it is everyone else who is wrong. There may well be some people working for LFL who privately disagree with some of the directions he's taken over the past decade or so, but the way he runs his business everyone is afraid to speak their minds and they all have to accept everything that he decides. There's no room for leeway. Yeah it's great that he still cares about his franchise, but he really needs to step down soon and hand over control to more qualified people who can do a much better job when they're not always having to gain his approval. I may be a fan of Star Wars like you but that doesn't mean I have to like the man himself.
  13. JediBendu Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 13, 1999
    star 3
    But from my take on the Forcecast that's not what they are saying. They are saying it's rude to go tell him that he's doing it all wrong from a great distance and that ultimately we have to respect that it's his universe. But neither Jason nor Jimmy have ever declared that GL has done no wrong and is entirely perfect in all his decisions.
  14. darthcaedus1138 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2007
    star 5
    But the petition isn't telling Lucas he has to do anything. It's asking. I really feel like the purist side blew this up to be way more than it should be and it's just been escalating.
  15. Gry Sarth Ex 2x Banhammer Wielding Besalisk Mod

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 1999
    star 5
    Very little, I'd say. We've seen footage of the story meetings, with the table cluttered with reference books. We even learned in the bluray that George hand-picked the final gundark design straight from the Essential Guide.

    The mistakes being perpetrated by all sides in this story is ignoring two basic facts:
    - Everyone's entitled to their opinion.
    - It's OK to criticize anybody, as long as you do it in a civil way. If it's a constructive criticism, all the better.

    Jason hates the EU? Fine. The petitioners think George should be curbed a bit? Fine.
  16. Humble_Jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2004
    star 4
    No, don't get me wrong. My favourite writer has won several Hugo and Nebula Awards. I was actually talking about the phrase "...creating something that's rarely ever been seen in the history of literature.". I thought it was a gross overstatement. Especially because I don't consider Star Wars EU to be Literature.

    Maybe the problem here is a linguistic one. I'm not sure how it is in English, but in my language we differentiate between 'Literature' (Art) and 'normal' works of fiction. [face_peace]
  17. Gry Sarth Ex 2x Banhammer Wielding Besalisk Mod

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 1999
    star 5
    I don't really think it's an overstatement. Sure, the quality of it all is a matter of opinion. But the phenomenon of hundreds of books and other storytelling media, created by a multitude of artists over three decades, centered around the same fictional universe and with a general attempt at a cohesive continuity, is indeed something pretty darned rare in literature.

    And yes, the EU IS literature.

    lit·er·a·ture (ltr--chr, -chr)
    n.
    1. The body of written works of a language, period, or culture.
    2. Imaginative or creative writing, especially of recognized artistic value: "Literature must be an analysis of experience and a synthesis of the findings into a unity" (Rebecca West).
    3. The art or occupation of a literary writer.
    4. The body of written work produced by scholars or researchers in a given field: medical literature.
    5. Printed material: collected all the available literature on the subject.

    It might be pulp, but still... pulp literature, then.
  18. Humble_Jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2004
    star 4
    Well, there you have the problem.

    In my language, the word 'Literature' can only be used for works that are considered Art. Stuff that can be read, but which is not considered 'Literature', we call 'Lectuur'. ('Readable')

    Also in my language, the word 'Art' can only be used for works with a message, and not just strictly decorative stuff. You know, High Art.

    Apparently this is different in English.
  19. Gry Sarth Ex 2x Banhammer Wielding Besalisk Mod

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 1999
    star 5
    Well, I don't think it's that different in English. But it's just really subjective to define what is Art. Some EU books are really well written, they have a message, they use rich language. Who's to say that isn't art?

    If you don't consider Art something that is paid for and commissioned by the owner of a huge franchise, with a decorative purpose.... then what is the Sistine Chapel?
  20. Executor_of_Order66 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 14, 2009
    star 2
    Exactly the petition is only asking that those involved in writing future star wars to take a little more time to make sure unnecessary retcons don't take place. It is a suggestion from the fan community, not a demand.
  21. JediBendu Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 13, 1999
    star 3
    On the other hand the petition does inflate the importance and the seamlessness of the EU up to ridiculous proportions. There are good and bad works in there and if we have to treat it all like the holy gospel then we're stuck with Trioculus and Jaxxon.
  22. Humble_Jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2004
    star 4
    Yeah well, that's a whole other debate I really don't want to get into. Like I said, there are certain literary qualities in the saga. And there are certain works of SF I consider to be literature. (C.S. Lewis' Out of the Silent Planet comes to mind)

    But the definition in English is a lot broader than in my language.
  23. Gry Sarth Ex 2x Banhammer Wielding Besalisk Mod

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 1999
    star 5
    Yes, the EU is considerably more contradictory than the petition makes it out to be. One notable difference though is that, unlike TCW, the rest of the EU is never willfully contradictory. Usually contradictions in the EU come from simple ignorance of all the nunaces established in other works. That's different from knowing full well that a certain character should still be alive at a later time, and killing him anyway.

    As for the questionable quality of some EU creations, I don't think anybody's asking George to go out of his way to USE those EU ideas, only that he leaves them be. Not reference them, but not render them void either. Peaceful coexistance.
  24. Humble_Jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2004
    star 4
    Now that sounds good in theory.

    However, the EU has been building upon loads of concepts of Lucas himself. Example: Mandalorians. Lucas invented those. Of course he's going to do his own thing with that. It's a miracle the EU 'survived' that as well as it did. And had Lucas' concept of Mandalorians totally obliterated everything that KT established: too bad.

    It would just be bizarre if Lucas couldn't do anything with Mandalorians just because another artist ran with his idea for a while. Where it comes to concepts that originated with Lucas, the EU is just place-holder stuff.
  25. JediBendu Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 13, 1999
    star 3
    And I'm all for that, except in the cases where the characters were his in the first place. Why should George have to shy away from Mandalore, maybe something he's been thinking about on and off for 30 years, just because someone else had their ideas in the meantime? Maybe he had Piell's arc already worked out when he said "You know, I want like a tall pink Yoda jedi character in the council."? But as the EU has become so vast, it becomes increasingly difficult to tell a story without stepping on some toes .

    I think for me it comes down to there being a hierarchy of canonicity. We're all fine with that and that there is a degree of picking and choosing what is actually relevant. Very few would be outraged if Glove of Darth Vader was retconned explicitly in TCW, because to most of us it is just a nice piece of fluff for younger readers - but other pieces of EU we cling to. If we have the right to pick and choose what is worthy, why shouldn't GL also have that right?
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