Phantom Editor Speaks: AOTC review

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by JoelDubin, Jul 10, 2002.

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  1. Imperial_Guard Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 13, 2002
    star 4
    TokyoXtreme,

    Well, Adolf Hitler wrote an infamous book with specific reasons for formulating his opinions. Is that enough for you?

    And how many times does Hitler have to keep getting brought up on these boards? He should have his own thread.
  2. VladTheImpaler Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2000
    star 4
    Yeah, why are we badmouthing Hitler anyway? After all, Mein Kampf is just his opinion! It's not like he's doing anything evil or anything! Geez, what is it about you gushers? You are so biased towards jews that you can't listen to well thought-out criticism! Instead you just personally attack Hitler!
  3. RogueTrader Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 7, 2002
    star 4
    *looks left*
    *looks right*
    *runs off*


  4. RogueTrader Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 7, 2002
    star 4
    *runs back*

    The freedom of speech has allowed hate groups like white supremists to flourish for years.

    Think about it.

    *runs off*
  5. Yodas-Smelly-Toe Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2001
    star 3
    ...but it certainly is a move that takes guts.

    A Phantom with guts?
  6. Yodas-Smelly-Toe Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2001
    star 3
    The freedom of speech has allowed hate groups like white supremists to flourish for years.

    Think about it.

    No, backward thinking racist fools have allowed white supremists to flourish for years.
  7. RogueTrader Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 7, 2002
    star 4
  8. Only_2 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 3
    Wow. Hitler?

    TokyoExtreme,

    There is no such thing as true or false in an opinion. True or False indicates an absolute, a fact. Fact is the complete polar opposite of opinion.

    An opinion can not be true or false in nature. It's just not possible.

    So yes the PE's bias does directly affect his opinion, which has nothing to do with fact.
  9. ferelwookie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2001
    star 4
    Again with the Hitler??

    Oy!

    Charles Manson never killed anyone either, but I wouldn't defend that mental defective or any of his opinions.
  10. Super_Nation_Jock Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 4, 2002
    star 4
    Let's be positive.

    If any of you guys subscribe to VARIETY magazine, you know there is a very knowledgeable, very respected critic there named Todd McCarthy. You know why I like reading his reviews? Because I ALWAYS know
    that he is giving the filmmaker a fair
    shot and the benefit of the doubt. He
    never ever makes snide, personal remarks
    or sarcastic cuts at the films he reviews.
    He may say negative things, but its' always done professionally and intelligently.

    Todd is proof you can critique a film without being nasty. I have often disagreed with this guy's critiques of films, but I have never felt he had a personal axe to grind against a particular filmmaker.

    PE, please take note of the above. As well as the following.

    The saga of Joe Nussbaum. Do you know who he is? He made a short called GEORGE LUCAS IN LOVE. It's a very clever, very funny film short. It won awards. He received a congratulatory letter from George, who saw it. Nussbaum has a Hollywood deal to make movies with a big production company. He hit just the right note. He made something involving Lucas but it was both funny and respectful.

    PE, that's the way you do it. Don't butcher someone else's work. Don't ridicule his work and claim you can do better. Be smart. The movie business is very political. Use your head. And don't step on toes.

  11. Duckman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2000
    star 4
    Well said. The people who get off on ridiculing and bashing Lucas and Star Wars would be the first to scream about it if someone criticised their work in the same childish way.
  12. AL Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1998
    star 5

    When will people learn that Kurtz's creative involvement in the first two films of the OT were on par with Ringo's creative involvement on the White Album?

    The Phantom Editor is a joke, even though some of his opinions are indeed shared by yours truly.
  13. TokyoXtreme Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2001
    star 4
    Do it without questioning Lucas' intentions or motivations and base it solely on AOTC's merits or failings without comparing it to the other movies in the Saga. that would be fairly unbiased, but I haven't seen a single review that has done that, positive or negative.

    I can understand reviewing the film without questioning Lucas's intentions or motivations; that's fair enough, because reviews should be judging the art and not the artist. That said, I think many reviews speculate about the artist's intent... and I don't see anything wrong with that either. Part of art criticism is attempting to determine what message the artist was attempting to convey through the medium.

    But why should a review of AOTC disregard any of the other 4 movies in the set? Many people on this board claim that every film is part of the saga, and that each episode is integral. Well, I don't personally agree with that viewpoint, but the general moviegoing public wants to know how AOTC compares with the others, so that is the main reason why the comparisons are printed. So much of the content of AOTC figures in to content from past and future movies, so I don't think it's fair to judge it completely by itself. Or is it? Fans will argue both sides.

    There is no such thing as true or false in an opinion. True or False indicates an absolute, a fact. Fact is the complete polar opposite of opinion.

    An opinion is a conclusion based upon observable facts. They are not polar opposites of a continuum; instead they share a causal relationship: opinions are based on facts.

    An opinion can not be true or false in nature. It's just not possible.

    Scientific theories are opinions based on facts. We use these theories because they are useful, and they work. A scientist will tell you that nothing can be technically proven in nature, but that doesn't mean we should completely disregard scientific method.

    Similarly, art criticism is opinions based on observable fact (the artwork being the observable fact). A critic generates a response based upon what he or she views; this response can be useful for other people to help them better understand the artwork.

    Ultimately, the PE made some logical conclusions about AOTC. There have been very few posts in this thread that attack his logic, but very many that have attacked his character (irrelevant to debate).

    One last thing: Hitler's writings and opinions were full of logical fallacy. I have actually researched several of Hitler's speeches for logical fallacy (ad hominem, strawman, etc... they were all there -- just like on this forum). Political speeches are generally full of logical fallacy and prejudicial appeals. It's best to just ignore them, just like it's best to ignore posts from people who just indulge in pointless name-calling.
  14. TokyoXtreme Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2001
    star 4
    Well said. The people who get off on ridiculing and bashing Lucas and Star Wars would be the first to scream about it if someone criticised their work in the same childish way.

    Not at all. "Real" artists, IMO, are just like Sark: they get tired of all the accounting cream puffs they keep being sent, and want someone with a bit of guts.

    Personally, no one can be a harsher critic of myself, than myself. I dare anyone to even try. Did you read Cyrano de Bergerac?
  15. Duckman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2000
    star 4
    You wrote Cyrano De Bergerac? It was crap!
  16. AL Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1998
    star 5

    Duckman is my hero.
  17. Pooja Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2002
    star 6
    lol...

    ...and that's all I have the right to say.
    ;)
  18. TokyoXtreme Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2001
    star 4
    Help me Anthony Burgess. You're my only hope.
  19. Lukecash Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 4
    You'd actually have better luck with Burgess Merideth.

    But seriously Tokyo-Lucas is also his own worse critic...he's never completely happy with the work that he's done. Thus he's put the OT through revisions. He's failed succesfully in all of his Box Office expectations. The've been too low.

    I agree with you that AOTC needs to be seen as part of the series...it was the artist INTENTION for them to be seen as such.

    And by THAT criterea, TPM, AOTC are very much like their predecesors. Thy have the same style of acting, action and script style. It is a very well crafted Fairy Tale/Space Opera. Sure they are levels to it, but Lucas uses them for texture, not any real depth.

    To expect Star Wars to be anything but itself is courting doom. Sherlock Holmes is not great Literature...but it is well made, and stands the test of times.
  20. Imperial_Guard Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 13, 2002
    star 4
    Good point, Lukecash. Excellent analogy.

    I've noticed on these boards that it seems like some gushers and bashers alike try to make Star Wars into something it's not.
  21. Only_2 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 3
    Ok,

    To be fair, I guess what I meant with the comparison to the other films is that I wish someone who has seen all of the SW films minus the ridiculous hype of the OT 20 years removed from it's initial run could see them all within a short span of time and then could objectively review AOTC comparitively against the others.

    TPM and AOTC unfairly had two decades of snowballing MEDIA and fan produced hype to live up to. I don't think that either are perfect films in general or by Star Wars standards. I also don't think they fall nearly as short as so many disappointed overgrown children like the PE did.

    Take away 20 years of hype and nostalgia, in comparison to the OT, the PT is far better on every level than any 4th and 5th sequel has been or could ever be expected to be.
  22. darth_pooh Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 1, 2002
    star 4
    People always complain about bashers and gushers, but they miss the point. Some of you guys obviously haven't been around that long.

    Yes, people do talk about aspects of the movie that they are trying to understand or form philosophies about. And yes, that leads to argument. Some ideas are neither from the movie, nor EU, but are deeply personal. But often, some people come on here not to argue or have discourse, but JUST TO BE RIGHT.

    We are just trying to get along and make up ideas that appeal to us. Yet, everyone gets in such a huff. Then they go and complain about "bashing." But bashing is when discourse devolves into stupid bickering and rigtheous badgering. Bashing starts when there is no tolerance or ability to see the other side to things, the other ways that people think. Just becuase people have different opinions about the world or Star Wars, doesn't mean they don't like Star Wars!


    Easy up everyone! Sheesh. :p
  23. Duckman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2000
    star 4
    "Real" artists, IMO, are just like Sark:

    Sark in Tron? I bet you're gonna tell me you wrote that too!
  24. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    To expect Star Wars to be anything but itself is courting doom.

    That's profound.
  25. Sithchilde Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 14, 2002
    star 1
    Only_2

    "I wish someone who has seen all of the SW films minus the ridiculous hype of the OT 20 years removed from it's initial run could see them all within a short span of time and then could objectively review AOTC comparitively against the others."

    *Sithchilde puts his hand up*

    I didn't see my first SW film until I was 21, and saw them all (up to TPM) within months of each other. Totally missed all the hype (and you'd be suprised how easy it is to miss the hype).

    But what good would my review be, just out of interest? Surely it would be just as easily dismissable as any other review, good or bad?

    I mean, I've seen reviewers who were previously lambasted for negative reviews of TPM being lauded for their reviews of AOTC, and I've seen people like Ebert, whose review was eagerly anticipated by many people on this forum, torn to shreds because of their opinion on AOTC (in the case of people's opinions of Ebert, I haven't seen such a rapid 180 since that little droid thing saw Cheewie in ANH).





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