Phantom Menace is now a 'classic'

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by irishfan, Jul 25, 2003.

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  1. irishfan Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2003
    As the years are rolling by, I've found that I'm looking at my TPM dvd with an increasing sense of nostalgia. I am reminded that I went through a similar process with the original trilogy in the Eighties and I am led to the conclusion that the new movies are every bit as good as the originals.
    The only thing that the new movies are missing is the affection that is given to 'older movies', but as the audience grows older, they will remember the new movies with the same affection.
    When I look at the other movies being produced today, I am convinced that the new trilogy will stand the test of time as did the original trilogy and be held in the same esteem.
    Why do I think this? Well, for example, in 1983 Return Of The Jedi was considered a very average movie, but by the 'nineties' was a classic.
    I think the new movies will go through this process, but will ultimately by vindicated as they stand the test of time.
    What do others think?
  2. Jedi_Master201 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2001
    star 5
  3. Latorski Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 14, 2002
    star 4
    I agree with everything you've said, Irishfan.
  4. Cometgreen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2002
    star 4
    This is just asking for trouble...

    But I might as well get my thoughts in. I watched TPM a few weeks ago after not watching it, probably, since AOTC came out. It was rather weird, as it did kind of feel like an old movie. For me, it was starting to become a classic.

    Maybe in ten years, when I watch the entire saga on DVD, they'll all seem perfectly aged. Nostalgia always helps the experience. ;)

    Cometgreen
  5. Holocron_Collector Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 2001
    star 5
    I agree. I get all warm and fuzzy when I pop in TPM. I have lines I actually say with the movie now, like the OT.

    HC
  6. Draculas_guest Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 15, 2001
    star 2
    irishfan:
    The only thing that the new movies are missing is the affection that is given to 'older movies', but as the audience grows older, they will remember the new movies with the same affection.


    *sigh* and here comes the argument that people only like the original films because of nostalgia, rather than because of the films themselves.

    When I was about 11 yrs old I saw Jurassic Park at the cinema. I'd been to the cinema once when I was about 5 yrs old on some kind of school trip, but I dont really remember much about that, so I consider JP to be the first proper film I saw on the big screen.

    I absolutely loved it! I still like Jurassic Park today.

    A few months ago, I saw Jurassic Park 3. I thought it sucked. It had a few good action sequences but I thought the whole thing was a bit flat. Most of the reviews I read rated it as mediocre, and overall I dont remember many people raving about it all that much when it was released in the cinema.
    Now when people criticise JP3, I never see them get accused of being nostalgic over the first JP. Even though there is about 9 or 10 years difference between the two films, I've never seen anbody defend JP3 based on the nostalgia value.

    Now I go back and watch the original Jurassic Park, and I feel that its a better film in just about every way possible. The characters were more interesting, the humour was funnier, the situation had more depth to it etc. etc. I watch the first JP and I find it a much more rewarding film than JP3.
    Just because I enjoyed Jurassic Park as a kid, doesnt mean that I'm not capable of watching it now and judging it in a clear light. I like it because I think its a good movie, not just because I happened to enjoy it when I was young.
    I mean there's films I used to love which are dreadful when I watch them now. I used to like watching Superman IV for some reason, yet I look at it now and it just looks horrible.

    Its similar with the Alien franchise. I saw the original Alien as a kid and it scared me to death. I watch Alien:Resurrection now and I think its a bit rubbish, yet I dont get accused of being nostalgic about the first Alien film. I dont see people come up with arguments like "The only reason you prefer Alien is because you were a kid when you saw it and you got scared more easily back then!"

    Ditto for the Planet of the Apes remake. Tim Burton's Planet of the Apes had a very mixed reception. Did the remake get bad reviews because people were simply being nostalgic over the original? Somehow I doubt it.

    People are quite capable of watching and judging films based on whether they think the film was any good or not. If somebody doesn't like the new Star Wars film , it doesn't have to be explained away by "nostalgia".
    I didnt see ANH until I was about 12 or 13 yrs old. I was about 17 when I saw TPM, so there was only 4 or 5 years for me to get "nostalgic" over ANH.
    I dont like TPM because I dont think its a very good movie.
  7. Darth_Insidious Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2002
    star 4
    ROTJ is *still* considered an average movie by many of the fans of the originals. This is where the lack of validity to the nostalgia argument shows its ugly face; most bigger fans of the OT than the PT still believe that ROTJ is below the standard set by the other two. If nostalgia were a deciding factor here, all three would be remembered with the same unflinching adoration.
  8. winter_chili Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2002
    star 5
    I dont know if anyone is saying nostalga is the deciding factor

    its just one of many factors



  9. Clonetrooper1000 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 24, 2003
    star 3
    Darth_Insidious: "This is where the lack of validity to the nostalgia argument shows its ugly face"

    Are you trying to say that nostalgia has nothing to do with how the classic trilogy is compared in respect to the prequels. Think about it. "Classic" itself indicates a certain element of nostalgia, relating to not quality but their age.

    Darth_Insidious: "most bigger fans of the OT than the PT still believe that ROTJ is below the standard set by the other two."

    Well, I enjoy the prequels but still believe ROTJ is below the standard set by Episodes IV and V. Then again, ANH is not in the same level as ESB. The only Star Wars masterwork, IMHO.

    Anyway, most bashers refer to Original Trilogy in comparisons. So when it comes down to it they still praise ROTJ over the prequels, because it simply is one of the originals.

    Darth_Insidious: "If nostalgia were a deciding factor here, all three would be remembered with the same unflinching adoration."

    But they are remembered with a collective[/i] adoration. All 3 films as a package. Your argument is a complete farce. Are you trying to say people who are nostalgically tied to the prequels are not allowed to prefer one film original over another? Are you trying to say they must love all films equally? Of course one film of the three will be preferred over the other two but that does not mean they fans have a nostalgic connection.

    Anyway, I would certainly say TPM is not a 'classic' film. It's one part of a great saga and a good film. However, I still think it's the weakest instalment.
  10. Clonetrooper1000 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 24, 2003
    star 3
    Darth_Insidious: "This is where the lack of validity to the nostalgia argument shows its ugly face"

    Are you trying to say that nostalgia has nothing to do with how the classic trilogy is compared in respect to the prequels. Think about it. "Classic" itself indicates a certain element of nostalgia, relating to not quality but their age.

    Darth_Insidious: "most bigger fans of the OT than the PT still believe that ROTJ is below the standard set by the other two."

    Well, I enjoy the prequels but still believe ROTJ is below the standard set by Episodes IV and V. Then again, ANH is not in the same level as ESB. The only Star Wars masterwork, IMHO.

    Anyway, most bashers refer to Original Trilogy in comparisons. So when it comes down to it they still praise ROTJ over the prequels, because it simply is one of the originals.

    Darth_Insidious: "If nostalgia were a deciding factor here, all three would be remembered with the same unflinching adoration."

    But they are remembered with a collective[/i] adoration. All 3 films as a package. Your argument is a complete farce. Are you trying to say people who are nostalgically tied to the prequels are not allowed to prefer one film original over another? Are you trying to say they must love all films equally? Of course one film of the three will be preferred over the other two but that does not mean they fans have a nostalgic connection.

    Anyway, I would certainly say TPM is not a 'classic' film. It's one part of a great saga and a good film. However, I still think it's the weakest instalment.
  11. Darth_Insidious Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2002
    star 4
    Speaking for myself, I know that when I refer to the OT as being better than the PT, I'm talking about ANH and ESB. Saying 'OT' is just easier. I do think AOTC is close to ROTJ in terms of quality, but not quite there.

    I'm pretty sure that if you took a poll, one asking people like myself if ROTJ is objectively far below ANH and ESB, most would say yes.
  12. hawk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2000
    star 5
  13. winter_chili Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2002
    star 5
    But also the majority of people would take AOTC over ROTJ i think
  14. Jedi_Master201 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2001
    star 5
    That's correct, judging by the polls. TESB is usually in the lead, with AotC close behind.
  15. Clonetrooper1000 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 24, 2003
    star 3
    Darth_Insidious: "I'm pretty sure that if you took a poll, one asking people like myself if ROTJ is objectively far below ANH and ESB, most would say yes."

    I think ROTJ is a poorer film than both Episodes IV and V. However, I would say that most arguments between 'bashers' and 'gushers' are originals versus all the films. It's always talk of 'classics' and 'originals'. They mostly are referring to the first three films - Episodes IV to VI. Otherwise why is their so many basher's defending ROTJ in many debates? Another thing, the fact that they collectively group the films is another indicator that nostalgia has played it's part in affecting the expectations of certain Star Wars fans.
  16. Oakessteve Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 9, 1999
    star 6
    It depends how you define a 'classic', really. If you mean it's a classic because it's not quite as new as it used to be, then I don't really think it's old enough yet. If you mean it's a classic as in it's at the same level of quality as Casablanca, Citizen Kane, Jaws, The Third Man, or whatever else, then I'd have to disagree with you. Having said that, I do think The Phantom Menace is massively better than Return of the Jedi!
  17. Oakessteve Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 9, 1999
    star 6
    Double post. How embarrassing!
  18. MetalGoldKnight Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 4
    "Speaking for myself, I know that when I refer to the OT as being better than the PT, I'm talking about ANH and ESB. Saying 'OT' is just easier. I do think AOTC is close to ROTJ in terms of quality, but not quite there.

    I'm pretty sure that if you took a poll, one asking people like myself if ROTJ is objectively far below ANH and ESB, most would say yes."

    Yeah, a good majority of the bashers hate RotJ as well as the Prequels. Amazing how many Star Wars 'fans' only like 1/3 of the saga.
  19. Onnie Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 10, 2000
    star 3
    Otherwise why is their so many basher's defending ROTJ in many debates?

    Please tell me you jest!

    Empire is THE one (before being messed up)...

    Okay I was there as a kido, saw Return on the big screen when there was no room, we all had to sit on the stairs. Saw everyone stand up and cheer, scream, etc. when Vader threw Palp. babe over the rail.

    But really, outside of Luke fighting with Vader, eh...

    Please my fellow bashers, tell me it isn't true. Empire.. Rules. Well that and the Twin sunset.
  20. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    Totally agree, Irishfan. TPM (IMO anyway) has a sense of history about it that I've found that the other movies don't have. It epitomizes "A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far, away.."

    This is partly because the situation is totally unfamaliar. We have Obi-Wan and Yoda, and neither of them are much like how we remember them. They're still Jedi, of course, but Obi-Wan is a green-behind-the-ears Padawan (definitely not the legendary warrior we were introduced to in the OT) and Yoda is definitely not the crazy old prophet living in a swamp. Other than these two characters, there is very little we're familiar with. Of course, there's Palps being his usual manipulative self and the droids are around, but otherwise..there's nothing we're familiar with. No Empire, no Darth Vader, no Rebel Alliance.

    And the lack of these things that make this film great. It shows the beginnings of these things: The Queen and her bodyguards can be seen at early echoes of the Rebellion, driven to war for lack of an alternative, it starts a young Jedi on his path to heroism, and most important of all, it shows the Empire's beginnings:

    From the ANH novel prologue:

    "Helped by mindless beaureacrats and the massive organs of commerce, the ambitious Senator Palpatine caused himself to be elected President of the Republic."

    This is TPM in a nutshell, and it delivers beautifully.

    Jaws: Ridding the world's oceans of slutty hippies and annoying kids since 1975. Bite/ouch

  21. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    Speaking for myself, I know that when I refer to the OT as being better than the PT, I'm talking about ANH and ESB.

    I still find it odd that someone would call themselves a Star Wars fan when they only like two out of the soon to be six movies in the series. Dangerous and disturbing this puzzle is. Meditate on it I will.
  22. Lukecash Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 4
    ROJ is weakest, in my humble opinoion of the Star Wars movies.

    The Ewoks pretty much ruined the show-to the point that Lucasarts artists added "Ewoks Suck" graphittie in the Dark Forces Game. Anthony Daniels was offering recipies using ewoks in his Wonder Column. Even George Lucas, initial reaciton was "they're too cute" and tried several designs-but went back to the Ewoks.

    That an Boba Fetts demize at the maw of a Rubber Hole of Doom seemed rediculous. Jabba didn't seem that impressive.

    While the SE has improved it, and now that PT have added depth to the Vader/Palpatine/Luke scenes....ROJ remains a blemish in my mind.
  23. Draculas_guest Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 15, 2001
    star 2
    Clonetrooper1000
    So when it comes down to it they still praise ROTJ over the prequels, because it simply is one of the originals.

    For all its shortcomings, I still find ROTJ a much more satisfying piece of action fantasy than TPM. The confrontation between the Rebels and the Empire was much more thrilling than the business talk of trade federations and tax rates. Even the overall tone of ROTJ still feels more adult than TPM, with 9 yr old Annie yippeeying his way to victory. Hell, the cartoon Gungan battle makes the ewok fight look like Platoon!

    DarthBoba
    Other than these two characters, there is very little we're familiar with. Of course, there's Palps being his usual manipulative self and the droids are around, but otherwise..there's nothing we're familiar with. No Empire, no Darth Vader, no Rebel Alliance.

    Its not familiarity I have a problem with. I enjoyed The Matrix even though I wasn't familiar with Morpheous, Neo and Trinity. I enjoyed LOTR without being that familiar with Frodo and Gandalf. There's a first time for everything. I dont have a problem with new characters or new situations, its just that I dont find them all that interesting or very well established in TPM.
  24. Darth_MacDaddy Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2003
    star 4
    I liked TPM when it came out, I must say I was cautious with it but I liked it. The more I watched it, IMO the better it got as the more I understood the storyline (which I feel is superb). After AOTC, TPM in my eyes became a classic, more things made more sense it didn't just stand alone it became part of the saga. I hope Ep3 will have the same effect as AOTC did on TPM and it will just cap of the entire saga.
  25. rumsmuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 31, 2000
    star 7
    "Hell, the cartoon Gungan battle makes the ewok fight look like Platoon!"


    That's great...
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