Phantom Menace is now a 'classic'

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by irishfan, Jul 25, 2003.

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  1. appleseed Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2002
    star 4
    Quite a good point Durwood; some so-called Star Wars fans are really just fans of 2 of the six, or to be really honest and precise, 1 of the six films. These people are more correctly identified as "Empire" fans.
  2. Clonetrooper1000 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 24, 2003
    star 3
    Draculas_guest: "For all its shortcomings, I still find ROTJ a much more satisfying piece of action fantasy than TPM."

    I also find ROTJ a more satisfying film.

    Draculas_guest: "The confrontation between the Rebels and the Empire was much more thrilling than the business talk of trade federations and tax rates."

    I actually really like the political aspect of the prequels. I like the way the prequels have lost the good versus evil simplicity and present us with a more detailed mythology that I think plays out really well against the original films.

    Draculas_guest: "Even the overall tone of ROTJ still feels more adult than TPM"

    I think most fans would agree that TPM is the most colorful and 'child-friendly' of the saga. Its not bad but it is less of what SW fans would prefer to see. Likewise, having a 9-year old protagonist did not help teenagers and adults take to it as well either. Again, it is not bad. It was still a very well made film. Not a 'classic' by a long way.
  3. Lukecash Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 4
    Draculas Guest

    For all its shortcomings, I still find ROTJ a much more satisfying piece of action fantasy than TPM. The confrontation between the Rebels and the Empire was much more thrilling than the business talk of trade federations and tax rates. Even the overall tone of ROTJ still feels more adult than TPM, with 9 yr old Annie yippeeying his way to victory. Hell, the cartoon Gungan battle makes the ewok fight look like Platoon!


    Yes, more satisfying as and adult fantasy...which included:

    1) The galaxy's greates bounty hunter gets hit by a blind Solo, and ricochets into the big rubber hole we call a sarlac pit. The sarlac pit then belches.

    2)Cute little Ewoks stealing a Speederbike and doing the "Guiligans Island" stretch, hanging on for dear life...then doing barrel rolls in it.

    3)Salacious Crumb.


    Sure, Anakin said "yippe" Kids say that. The whole FEEL of TPM was to be similar to a boys adventure story. And while the Tax issue might not have been "exciting" the political manuvering of Palpatine is a decidedly adult theme.
  4. CeeJay Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2000
    star 4
    Durwood - You do realise that there was a time when being a SW fan meant you only had to like one film, then they made another and another. Despite how many films they wish to add, simply liking any of them to a point of it controlling a vast majority of your affection and attention classes anyone as a fan without the need to force oneself to like everything that is merely labled SW. Essentially, anyone calling them a SW fan simply has to love the original film released as simply Star Wars in order to truly be one - the rest is optional and not part of the original plan, merely an indulgence.

    Classic - in order for anything to be deemed a classic it has to reach some level of distinction or attain a significant level of appreciation or reverence by many in its art or craft. It has to lead the field so to speak to a point of being so creatively ahead of its compettitiors or uniquely outstanding for its time so as to appear timeless. The impact of ral classics is felt in countless imatations and years of love and respect not only at it's time but long after even though surpassed in that field as time goes by.

    TPM isn't a classic.

    What it is today as it was back in 1999, is a highly unoriginal collection of set pieces and reacurring themes visited before in the old trilogy, rehashed and delivered to a audience old and new in the blandest possible way with it's saving grace being the ever faithul music of John Williams and an overload in visual effects by the backbone of Lucasfilm, ILM. In terms of being an initiation to young audiences back then, it ust have some level of nostalgia and to other craving more SW on celluloid it undeniably has to serve a place in the make-it-up -as-you-go saga. But it was never so far above any great film for that year either before or after, not enough to deem it distinction worthy of a classic amongst neighbouring films that truly deserve and are deemed so. It is merely a fan favourite, and only one to a minority within that particular group aswell.

    No amount of years is going to raise it to that level either, rotten eggs do not turn into Caviar over a lengthy period of time! No way near enough people loved and revered TPM that year so as to make it a classic in time to come, it's greatest achievement was in generating hype and expectation larger than any film I care to rememeber in the history of cinema. If not for a pre-established core of SW fans around the world sustaqining it's box office, the film would have died quicker than the HULK has this year. It's horrendously large amount of unsold merchandise and well under par sales in home video around the world in comparrison to films that performed not even a quarter of its box office really stamped the official opinion by those who lived the TPM experience in the cinema.
  5. Clonetrooper1000 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 24, 2003
    star 3
    CeeJay: "You do realise that there was a time when being a SW fan meant you only had to like one film"

    Yes there was a time. That time is gone. Star Wars is more than just one film. Most fans would agree with that.

    CeeJay: "Essentially, anyone calling them a SW fan simply has to love the original film released as simply Star Wars in order to truly be one - the rest is optional and not part of the original plan, merely an indulgence."

    Wrong. Star Wars is more than just one film. It is a saga where the subsequent episodes are equally important in the canon of events. In other words, Durwood is correct... surely a 'fan' of something has to accept a majority of those films.

    In other words, if you like IV and V, but you do not like the others, you really are not a SW fan. You may be a fan of those instalments. If you only liked Rambo: First Blood Part 2 but disliked the other two, it would be kind of hard to call yourself a 'Rambo fan'.

    CJ: "TPM isn't a classic."

    Agreed.

    CJ: "the film would have died quicker than the HULK has this year."

    And that was one excellent film! ;)

    Box-office and quality just don't relate to each other very much at all.

    CJ: "It's horrendously large amount of unsold merchandise and well under par sales in home video around the world in comparrison to films that performed not even a quarter of its box office really stamped the official opinion by those who lived the TPM experience in the cinema."

    Yet was it not one of the best-selling DVD's of its time. A record breaker when it came out. Still sells quite well for a DVD that has been out for a while. Also, one fine DVD package aswell.
  6. TadjiStation Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2001
    star 4
    Wrong. Star Wars is more than just one film. It is a saga where the subsequent episodes are equally important in the canon of events. In other words, Durwood is correct... surely a 'fan' of something has to accept a majority of those films.

    No one HAS to accept anything within the context of the SW universe that they don't personally like in order to maintain their fandom. To think otherwise is to regard yourself as a drone - one that's content with anything related to a particular franchise, no matter how dull or poorly executed.

    A parallel is music: I'm a big rock and roll fan, but believe it or not, Elvis does almost nothing for me. Van Halen (the David Lee Roth years) was a smokin band. Yet 1984 (their last album in that formation) was mediocre at best. I'm still very much a fan of rock and roll, and the earlier Van Halen albums. To not regard me as a fan is presumptuous and arrogant.

    This can be easily applied to the SW films. Not all of them are created equal. I'm sure Lucas had the best intentions when initiating the PT, but those intentions went to pot the minute he stepped into the director's chair. If he were truly smart, or truly interested in the art and craft of filmmaking, he would have delegated the tasks at hand to someone who had more experience behind the camera, someone who could have gotten the performances and characters the story deserved, and the audiences hoped for. Instead, we have cardboard cut-outs blocking their scenes in front of a blue screen. Where's the set? Where's the illusion (outside of the computer)? This isn't moviemaking at it's finest. It's computer compositing of the most overblown proportions.

    I'll eat my hat the day TPM, or AOTC for that matter, become WIDELY regarded, in the annals of film history, as "classic".
  7. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    Quite a good point Durwood; some so-called Star Wars fans are really just fans of 2 of the six, or to be really honest and precise, 1 of the six films. These people are more correctly identified as "Empire" fans.

    and it seems some fans are more concerned about their "fan staus" than whether or not the films are still any good.
  8. Loco_for_Lucas Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
    star 5
    Wrong. Star Wars is more than just one film. It is a saga where the subsequent episodes are equally important in the canon of events. In other words, Durwood is correct... surely a 'fan' of something has to accept a majority of those films.


    So, does this mean that if you don't like the EU, you are not a fan? It was given the blessing of Lucas and was accepted as a part of the story that was established in 1977.
  9. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    actually, seeing the way some of you PT fans have posted of late, i would probably have to call you PT fans, not Star Wars fans, since you seem to need to put down the OT at every turn.
  10. SithRuler77 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2003
    star 2
    woa dont say that too loud or the elders will reeel ur ass...no they are youngans like me but ya i agree it was an INSTANT classic in my book, the first star wars in like 17 years that was huge, it made history.
  11. Draculas_guest Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 15, 2001
    star 2
    Clonetrooper1000
    I also find ROTJ a more satisfying film

    Glad we agree :)


    Clonetrooper100
    Star Wars is more than just one film. It is a saga where the subsequent episodes are equally important in the canon of events. In other words, Durwood is correct... surely a 'fan' of something has to accept a majority of those films.

    Perhaps, but I dont recall Durwood or anyone else being elected to govern our status as "fans".
    Some of the people who dont like the PT have been enjoying Star Wars since '77. For somebody else to decide that they are no longer a 'fan' seems absurd.

    I'm aware that there are some people who only got into Star Wars more recently and like the PT but not the OT, however I dont go around telling them that they are not proper 'fans' for not liking the originals. I mean I could argue that people who prefer ANH are 'purists', and that the kids who are enjoying the PT today haven't put in enough hours to be a proper 'fan'

    I mean how does anyone decide who is a fan and who isnt? Is it somebody who enjoys all of the Star Wars films? Should higher status be given to people who have been watching Star Wars since 1977? Or how about people who own props from the movie? I own a bunch of Marvel comic adaptations of ESB from 1980, does that give me a higher fanship than an 8 yr old kid who only just saw AOTC on DVD?

    The problem is that some people here are too quick to demote other people. Does anyone here have authority over anyone else? Well no unless your a mod, but even they dont have the right to decide who is a 'fan' and who isn't

    I'm a fan of Radiohead, yet I only own 'The Bends' and 'OK Computer'. I like some of the stuff on 'Kid A' and 'Amnesiac' but I dont own those albums. The thing is I've never heard anyone tell me I'm not a "proper" Radiohead fan for not owning all of their material.
  12. Darth_Insidious Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2002
    star 4
    Yet was it not one of the best-selling DVD's of its time. A record breaker when it came out. Still sells quite well for a DVD that has been out for a while. Also, one fine DVD package aswell.

    It sold two million it's first week, two million more by the end of 2001. It then dropped of the charts, reappearing briefly before the theatrical release of AOTC. That's it. It's not on the charts now, and hasn't been for over a year. Although it is, as you said, one fine DVD package.
  13. TadjiStation Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2001
    star 4
    Agreed. The DVDs of TPM and AOTC are wonderfully produced. It's a shame (to me) that the program material they focus on isn't that great.

    Oh, well. There's always hope for Episode III.

    BTW, anyone seen Glorian around?
  14. CeeJay Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2000
    star 4
    Clonetrooper1000 - NO you're the one who's wrong. They may call the SW films a saga but that in itself is a false title. Never throughly planned and executed as a planned story from start to finish as one would expect of a volume of planned work depicting one grand tale; the SW films were merely the added sequels of a film originally released as a stand alone and without any real finished work to truly base either prequels or sequels in existance. The original film was called STAR WARS and not SW: A NEW HOPE as it later became after GL realised he could possibley make his Flash Gordon film into a true serial in the tradition the old republican shows. Anyone around at the time loving that film as it was, were true SW fans, that film unfortunately is no longer in existence and as rare to come across as a truly good SW sequel or prequel. GL didn't have the staying power to devote the time and devotion into completing his ambitious saga of nine films so he abrubtly finished it at merely three films instead and called it the SW trilogy throwing the possibility of doing the other 6 films as a teasing carrot to the poor fans of the promised series. He now returns with completely new takes on the prequel episodes to the original film and states he never had plans to do 9 or 12 films as was also a possibility back then and setting the whole thing now as 6 films split into two trilogies and incorrectly calling it a saga when all it really is are a set of sequel and prequel films without any real planning of story from start to finish, posing as episodes of one tale.

    The Halloween films are merely a bunch of sequels and prequels, so are the Fiday the 13th films and Rocky and Halloween etc etc, The SW films are no different, none of the stories for the films existed as solid finished written material, they were merely added on and made up as they went along just like Rambo and Evil Dead etc etc with the exception that those films never pretended to be more than what they were.. a bunch of added sequels. To love the original film is to be a fan, everything else is merely glorified merchandise and you can be a fan of that if you like but they merely carry the name, not the spirit of the original. I love SW ANH and TESB and I am a true fan, no force on the planet can tell me that because i can't bring myself to love the crap that came after it I suddenly cease to become a fan nor if I don't buy every crappy comic, novelisation or piece of merchandise labled SW either. Fandom doesn't mean that I have to suddenly go blind or loose my opinion, nor does it mean Lucasfilm owns me and my unwavering affection for any future releases they feel like producinig despite the quality of the goods as long as it too is stamped with the SW lable of approval.

    So unlike those who feel to be a SW fan means to love all blindly that is SW, I know exactly what I am and keep my god given choice to be open minded and honest in my opinons. I am a STAR WARS Fan, a fan of the film that was called STAR WARS and released in 1977 not some messed up version that came out in 1999 and not a fan of any film with SW in the title made after The Empire Strikes Back. For those under the delusion that they are REAL SW fans because they like everything, well you guys are SW Merchandise fans, no matter if GL decides to stop at Ep3 or continue with more bad films or a cheesy TV series, you guys will happilly swallow it up and force feed yourself the crud it seems jsut because you feel it's your duty as a fan to like it - not me thank god! I can watch them, i can like or dislike them and feel no way duty bound to consider them as prereqisitte to holding onto my treasured title of "SW FAN".

    You want to see a real saga - Lord of the Rings, Babylon 5, Dune, those are sagas. The SW films are as much a saga as TPM is a classic and they no longer even fall into the category of Trilogy either, mrely a bunch of sequels.
  15. Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    star 6
    Return Of The Jedi was considered a very average movie

    ROJ was an instant classic. Ewoks and the giant slug Jabba became house-hold names before the year was up and have remained so ever since.


    I think ROTJ is a poorer film than both Episodes IV and V. However, I would say that most arguments between 'bashers' and 'gushers' are originals versus all the films. It's always talk of 'classics' and 'originals'.

    For my part - correct, I find ROJ a worthy addition to the classics.


    Jabba didn't seem that impressive.

    What? Oh, come on, it was all about Jabba!


    You want to see a real saga - Lord of the Rings, Babylon 5, Dune, those are sagas.

    Oh yes indeed! :D
  16. Cometgreen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2002
    star 4
    CeeJay: It doesn't matter. The Star Wars story cannot be told in one single film, and therefore is a saga. I don't care when the scripts were written or who intended what; all I care about is the finished product. The finished product is a six part series focusing on the life of Anakin Skywalker and the events and people that made an impact on his life.

    It's not 1977 anymore. Star Wars is no longer a 2 hour story of a farmer boy's short adventure.

    Cometgreen, who thinks ROTJ is the best of the saga, even if it is only for the last 40 minutes :p
  17. First_Stage_Lensman Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 23, 2003
    star 2
    TWO points Ceejay:

    Point #1: The 1939 Wizard of Oz tanked at the box-office, was not universally loved in any special way the year of its release, disappointed ardent fans of the book series (the first fantasy franchise ever btw) was crushed by critics (Judy Garland came in for a fierce drubbing) and was overadvertised & overmerchandised. But it is considered a classic now. The film had elements that went beyond instant gratification and it SELECTED its audience, much as TPM is doing. In my opinion TPM is a classic.

    Point#2: The Ilium, or epic of troy, was NOT a planned story. It grew in the telling over many many years. It was comprised of completely unoriginal pieces borrowed from other sources. It was popular but had its critics. Homer's contribution was actually a set of SEQUELS to earlier poems connecting the various tales & traditions. Homer's version had many sequels (unfortunately they are lost but some ancient authors describe their contents). This set of stories is now considered a single SAGA.

    All of this means: you have an OPINION. That does not make it FACT.
  18. JohnWilliams00 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 29, 2002
    star 4
    Point #1: The 1939 Wizard of Oz tanked at the box-office, was not universally loved in any special way the year of its release, disappointed ardent fans of the book series (the first fantasy franchise ever btw) was crushed by critics (Judy Garland came in for a fierce drubbing) and was overadvertised & overmerchandised. But it is considered a classic now. The film had elements that went beyond instant gratification and it SELECTED its audience, much as TPM is doing. In my opinion TPM is a classic.

    The reception of The Wizard of Oz was not as miserable as you make it seem. The movie had one of the highest budgets of its time (next to Gone With the Wind) and it did make a profit, but barely cleared what was already a high fence.

    was not universally loved in any special way the year of its release

    The film earned 6 Academy Award Nominations (including Best Picture) and won 2 (for Best Score and Best Song). It was not universally hated.

    True, there may have been some mixed feelings from some critics and fans, but it was not a disaster either. You know the audiences had to be "wowed" when hey saw Dorothy open that door and step into that colorful world for the first time.
  19. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    You do realise that there was a time when being a SW fan meant you only had to like one film...

    When there was only one film in existence, yes, but that was a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away. Welcome to 2003, my friend.
  20. winter_chili Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2002
    star 5
    True, there may have been some mixed feelings from some critics and fans, but it was not a disaster either. You know the audiences had to be "wowed" when hey saw Dorothy open that door and step into that colorful world for the first time.


    Sounds like TPM
  21. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    It is just as asanine to suggest we would blindly accept anything with a SW logo as it would be to suggest you would blindly dislike anything with a SW logo after ESB.

    It's not a matter of who is the bigger fan; it is: Who is getting more out of SW as a whole?

    I think the complaints leveled at the prequels are just as true (if not more so) with the classic trilogy. I think it is a double standard that is influenced partially by nostalgia, and partially by people growing older and less forgiving.

    But that doesn't change the fact that some people will never accept the newer films. Luckily for Lucas, enough people dig what Lucas is doing, that he doesn't have to worry about the people who were "let down".

    I think it sucks that some people can't accept the newer films, but that's not my problem. And if they don't mind their perdicament, then it isn't a problem for them either.

    There were people who didn't like the classic trilogy either, and that didn't get in the way of their becoming classics. If anything, the prequels are making the entire saga even more classic than it was as a single trilogy. And no amount of complaints or declarations of inferiority by the prequel's detractors will ever change that.
  22. Cometgreen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2002
    star 4
    ^
    Exactly. In 10 or 20 years, people will look at Star Wars as a classic saga, watched from Episodes 1-6, even if the prequels are not as well liked as the first trilogy.

    Cometgreen
  23. appleseed Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2002
    star 4
    It's also a complete untruth that PT fans bash the OT. You very rarely see that. True, some PT fans get sick of the Dante-like whining of Empire fans, but next to none of them have a problem with the film itself, or the OT in general.

    As much as bashers hate it, the very best scenes in the SW Saga (so far) are, IMO, the Luke/Vader/Palpatine scenes from ROTJ. So the series hardly has tanked since Empire. In fact, it hadn't even reached it's pinnacle yet with Empire. It still very well may not have, according to how great Episode III turns out to be.

    TPM is not now a classic. It already was one the day it came out. I'll not get into comparing SW with other movie sagas, because there's no need. That'd be like comparing the Jordan led Chicago Bulls to the 60's Celtics. There's plenty of room for greatness of all kinds.
  24. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    As much as bashers hate it, the very best scenes in the SW Saga (so far) are, IMO, the Luke/Vader/Palpatine scenes from ROTJ.

    i think those are great scenes. what is your point?
  25. JenX Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 26, 2002
    star 3
    Go-Mer-Tonic

    I think the complaints leveled at the prequels are just as true (if not more so) with the classic trilogy.

    Yeah?

    I don't. I think the prequels are vastly inferior to even the weakest film in the CT/OT (ROTJ).

    I think it is a double standard that is influenced partially by nostalgia, and partially by people growing older and less forgiving.

    Well, I think it's prety much one standard being applied to all the SW films. I think some of the films met that standard, and some of the films didn't. But I'm also aware that, no matter how many times people explain why they don't like the prequels, some people will continue to prefer to explain away criticism by blaming "nostalgia".

    If anything, the prequels are making the entire saga even more classic than it was as a single trilogy. And no amount of complaints or declarations of inferiority by the prequel's detractors will ever change that.

    Err, yeah, no amount of prequel detractors will change your opinion, but that doesn't mean that the prequels are making the entire saga even more classic.

    appleseed

    It's also a complete untruth that PT fans bash the OT.

    Oh, please.

    As much as bashers hate it, the very best scenes in the SW Saga (so far) are, IMO, the Luke/Vader/Palpatine scenes from ROTJ.

    Yeah, I've noticed that. You can't move for posters on the Bashers' Sanctuary saying "Man, I hate the fact that appleseed thinks that the Luke/Vader/Palpatine scene is the best in the SW Saga so far".

    No, really, I'm serious.

    [face_laugh] [face_laugh] [face_laugh]


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