Phantom Menace is now a 'classic'

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[b]Hawk:[/b] Here's what really happens. You introduce characters in stories and give them something to do. Until they have a purpose, they don't need to be seen in the plot.[hr][/blockquote]Well what really happened was the way I described it, and this is how you would have done it. I like the way Lucas does it better, because that way the characters don't seem to be added in at the last moment when a plot point requires it. This way, when a background character comes into play later on down the road it isn't like "who the hell is that guy?"[blockquote][hr][b]Hawk:[/b] Example: The Emperor in the CT. He is mentioned in ANH and has a small appearance in TESB where he moves Vader's character towards his goal (purpose). Then in ROTJ, he is revealed and proceeds to be the main bad guy. Having Palpatine sitting around in ANH or TESB occasionally dropping a line (for the sake of showing his character) would be pointless. This is how many characters are treated in the PT. They appear, have a few lines but don't serve the plot in any significant way.[hr][/blockquote]If you don't see how Palpatine is serving the plot in the prequels, you will once you see Episode III.[blockquote][hr][b]Hawk:[/b] To be fair, characters are introduced and nothing more in chapters of books. But one of the biggest misconceptions fans have of Star Wars is that it is all "one big movie". No.[hr][/blockquote]Actually, when Episode III is complete, they will all be one big movie.[blockquote][hr][b]Hawk:[/b] These are all separate movies that contribute to the entire story. They aren't chapters in a book. Think of them more as books in a series. Each is a self contained story and characters shouldn't just hang around and have silly cameos.[hr][/blockquote]If it's one big story, then why can't you see it as one big movie? What's with this tendancy to separate everything? It all seems like one big 13 1/2 hour movie to me so far. As far as characters being introduced in the prequels, that's what the prequels are for.

 

Well what really happened was the way I described it, and this is how you would have done it. I like the way Lucas does it better, because that way the characters don't seem to be added in at the last moment when a plot point requires it. This way, when a background character comes into play later on down the road it isn't like "who the hell is that guy?"

In the self contained movie, it makes no sense to introduce a character that does not do anything. For instance, it wouldn't hurt the prequels one bit to intoduce 3P0 in ANH when he actually becomes important to the story rather than have him sitting off on the side waiting to do something.


If you don't see how Palpatine is serving the plot in the prequels, you will once you see Episode III.

I actually said the "CT" as in Classic Trilogy. Before Lucas made the PT, the CT worked as a trilogy by itself. It did not need to have Palpatine sitting off on the side throughout ANH and TESB. They introduce him into the plot when he has something to do.

Actually, when Episode III is complete, they will all be one big movie.

That's funny because they all have different titles, different credits and stories. You have to understand that just because they all contribute to a broader story doesn't mean that they are not self contained stories as well. Go and have a little think.

If it's one big story, then why can't you see it as one big movie? What's with this tendancy to separate everything? It all seems like one big 13 1/2 hour movie to me so far. As far as characters being introduced in the prequels, that's what the prequels are for.

Because in reality, they are separate movies with different stories. They each contribute to a whole but we aren't just looking at chapter in a book. A good example of "one big movie" is Matrix Reloaded/Revolutions. They were filmed back to back and simply sliced down the middle. One does not make sense without the other. As it stands, each SW movie can work on its own to some extent and they are separated in time, location and plot.

 

If its all one big story, then it's all one big movie, with many interwoven plot points that thread through each of the episodes.

Nobody is introduced just for the sake of introducing them. For example the droids are supposed to be there through all 6 episodes, and they have always had fairly inconsequential, backround roles, with R2 stepping in every once in a while to save the day, and with 3-PO there to give a rolling narration to the events around him.

Sidious and Palpatine are integral to the story of the prequels. You couldn't have just gotten to the end of Episode III and suddenly, there is this hooded guy who appears out of nowhere to proclaim this was all his doing. You have to show him there the whole time.

 

Yeah, and again you don't read what I am writing. I wasn't saying Palpy wasn't significant in the PT. Go back an re-read. I'm not wasting my energy on that.

It is one big story but if you honestly think that they are not ALSO six films with their own story then I can't help you. You can choose to see it however it makes you the happiest.

 

Right, they each tell their part of the larger story.

 

I see the entire saga as one huge tale broken into episodes which ultimately serves the complete story.

 

Loco for Lucas

Okay, number one...and this is imporant. The Hutts are considered gangsters. This does NOT mean they actually are the government-but they have more influence than the local. government. This can be said true of certian time periods in many countries history.

As the Captian Panka said, "You can take her there, The Hutts are Gangsters." Not..."The Hutts are an evil goventment."

Now we look at The Phantom Menace. We learn that the Hutts control Tatooine and Jabba precides over race competitions and makes public appearances. This totally goes against the motif that was established and worked for Jedi. Now Jabba is being given legitimacy in power. It elevates him to a higher status, one that the character does not deserve. And the significance of the themes about his ego are completely wasted as now he has some validity in thinking the way he does. He does rule over people, his power extends beyond his palace, he hasn't built himself up in his imagination, he is closer to legitimacy, and that goes against the "scummy crime boss" that we still see in Return of the Jedi.

And quite frankly...that anology still stands up. TPM shows he is believes he is greater than he is- he isn't part of the Republic, he isn't even the biggest threat to the Jedi and the Queen. He is just the gangster. The fact he fell assleep during the race re-INFORCES the ideas that Jabba is innefective. Still...Jabba and the Hutts shouldn't be taken too lightly. They may not be as treacherous as the Sith, but within what they DO contol-they are deadly.

And historically, Gagnsters did manage to rule parts of the country and cities. They did have illiegal horse racing, boxing matches and the like. And many did strut around like they were kings. So Jabba was still filling his role quite well.

As far as the Sandpeople- there were there for two reasons in TPM. One it established that Tatoonie wasn't a very civilized planet...and that there were dangers that were beyond the Hutts/Mos Espas control. (The fact that Jabba couldn't or wouldn't secure the saftey of the racers is proof of either is lack of true power or apathy towards his own buisness) The second reason they were put in was that Lucas new the old fans would get a kick out of it.

And what more did we learn about them? We learned that they had villiages...and they had women and children. Oh-and they like to capture and torture people. So do you know any of their names? Do you know what they look like under the bandages? How about their gods? Or do you know their motivations for attacking? The mystery is still there.

And were they render innefectual? Lets face it...in ANH they were scared off by an old guy waving his arms

 

Right, they each tell their part of the larger story.

Right, and each is ALSO a self contained story with a beggining middle and end. As such, these individual films shouldn't just introduce characters and let them sit on the sidelines. It never happened in the CT in the earlier episodes. It would be like introducing Lando in TESB and only using him in ROTJ. He had a part to play in TESB and that is why he was in the story then and there.

 

*Cometgreen doesn't remember Jabba or Bib Fortuna being introduced in TPM in the first place*

*Cometgreen thinks they were just there to make the viewer chuckle when viewed in retrospect*

*Cometgreen thinks Boba and Jango were important characters in AOTC*

*Cometgreen go sleep*

Cometgreen

 

Okay, number one...and this is imporant. The Hutts are considered gangsters. This does NOT mean they actually are the government-but they have more influence than the local. government. This can be said true of certian time periods in many countries history.

As the Captian Panka said, "You can take her there, The Hutts are Gangsters." Not..."The Hutts are an evil goventment."

I know the Hutts are still gangsters, I never implied that they were an organized governmental body. What I did say though was that I didn't see the need to give Jabba a larger role than necessary.

And quite frankly...that anology still stands up. TPM shows he is believes he is greater than he is- he isn't part of the Republic, he isn't even the biggest threat to the Jedi and the Queen. He is just the gangster. The fact he fell assleep during the race re-INFORCES the ideas that Jabba is innefective. Still...Jabba and the Hutts shouldn't be taken too lightly. They may not be as treacherous as the Sith, but within what they DO contol-they are deadly.

And historically, Gagnsters did manage to rule parts of the country and cities. They did have illiegal horse racing, boxing matches and the like. And many did strut around like they were kings. So Jabba was still filling his role quite well.

That is where the two do not agree. The Jabba in the Phantom Menace has legitimacy by being implied as a ruler of the planet AND when we see crowds of people cheering him and adoring him. This indeed goes against what we see in the Classic Trilogy, even in the Special Edition of ANH. We see Jabba meeting in a dingy hangar waiting for Solo personally, and trying to get a little bit of money out of him. Where are the legions of adoring fans? What would someone as "important" as Jabba be doing in a place like that? Why isn't off somewhere preciding over a race or hosting public event? Because he was on his day off? That doesn't mesh either because from what we see in TPM, he is adored by the public and makes appearances, so he has power. Someone like that does not need to go to places like that himself.

Its interesting that you tried to connect the two to show that they are still consistent, unfortunately, to do that would be negating much of what we saw of Jabba in TPM (which wasn't much). Were he not the actual host, but maybe a dealer on the side, or maybe a bookie or even a loan shark's boss, then I could see it working, but to have him host it is to, like hawk pointed out, give the audience an opportunity to say "Look, it's Jabba."

And were they render innefectual? Lets face it...in ANH they were scared off by an old guy waving his arms

And with that, you have thrown your own point out the window.

"Lucas wisely used Sandpeople sparinly in episode I and II- thus it heightens the "threat" factor when Luke goes to see what they are up too."

 

It seemed fairly obvious to me regarding the "character development" of Jabba the Hutt.

In the days of the Old Republic, Tatooine fell within the borders of Hutt space. The Hutts, despite being gangsters, governed the region to protect their own economic interests.

With the creation of the Empire, Palpatine, in his quest for power, was able to extend his rule to any region, even if it resided in the Outer Rim. As is evident in ANH, martial law is imposed on Tatooine at the drop of a hat, and Imperial soldiers dictate how individuals may live their lives. As a result of their loss of power, Hutts were relegated to the black market much like the manner in which the former Soviet Union is economically associated with racketeering and gangster enterprises.

Jabba, no longer a prefect of some sort (probably akin to a state governor), maintained what little power and influence he possessed by forming a godfather-type establishment up in the hills in a fortified dungeon, where fear and the lure of money kept him "in the business".

It's unfortunate that other Star Wars fans have been unable to understand this transition.

 

It seemed fairly obvious to me regarding the "character development" of Jabba the Hutt.

In the days of the Old Republic, Tatooine fell within the borders of Hutt space. The Hutts, despite being gangsters, governed the region to protect their own economic interests.

With the creation of the Empire, Palpatine, in his quest for power, was able to extend his rule to any region, even if it resided in the Outer Rim. As is evident in ANH, martial law is imposed on Tatooine at the drop of a hat, and Imperial soldiers dictate how individuals may live their lives. As a result of their loss of power, Hutts were relegated to the black market much like the manner in which the former Soviet Union is economically associated with racketeering and gangster enterprises.

Jabba, no longer a prefect of some sort (probably akin to a state governor), maintained what little power and influence he possessed by forming a godfather-type establishment up in the hills in a fortified dungeon, where fear and the lure of money kept him "in the business".

From what we see in ANH, it doesn't appear as though the Imperial forces changed the way of life on Tatooine during their search for the droids. They pretty much passed through Mos Eisley as inconspicuously as possible, an interrogation checkpoint is hardly martial law. They were looking for what they needed, and were doing so in a land that is not a part of their jurisdiction, so they didn't throw their weight around too much and declare martial law. So I don't really see the association. The Empire is in the bright center of the Universe while Tatooine is the planet farthest from it. And that little garrison of troopers is hardly representitive of any oppressive force on Tatooine. In anything, they show how little presence they have on Tatooine. So I don't see any direct connection between the Empire and the Hutts, particularly Jabba. Nothing on Tatooine changed at all during the shift from Republic to Empire. Slavery was apparently still a way of life, technology was still significantly behind, it was still a dangerous and seedy place to live; Tatooine has had no change in it at all, so thus the change in Jabba doesn't make sense. There was no external cause for him to go from one form of "rule" to another.

It's unfortunate that other Star Wars fans have been unable to understand this transition.

Why do these people insist on doing this? I'll never know. You don't see me saying, "It's sad to see some Star Wars fans have been unable to see such inconsistencies, they really need to open their eyes." I'm not the one asserting myself in being "in the right" and putting another down for thinking in a way other than mine.

 

He is just saying that it isn't something that is presented in the films in an obvious way, so when some fans don't understand that about Jabba, they end up thinking it's an inconsistency.

If they don't like inconsistencies, then it's unfortunate that they may inadvertantly think it is inconsistent.

 

Jabba of the PT cannot exist in the OT.

A) In the OT, the border that delineates Hutt space from Imperial space is permeable, at best, if not utterly nonexistent. Clearly, its residents know enough about the institution to hate it. Tatooine's political infrastructure responds to it with tolerance if not acceptance. And Tatooine's citizens can even apply to its academy. If that's not Imperial invasion, I don't know what is.

B) Tatooine resides in a region that is "farthest from the bright side of the universe". Therefore, it would be perfectly reasonable to politically justify the absence of a permanent Imperial military presence favoring, instead, the political influence of regional governors who have direct control of their territories where fear would keep the local systems in line. This type of control would be particularly true for those outlying regions like Tatooine.

C) The Galactic Empire, as ruthless as it may be, is not lawless. In fact, its genesis was inspired to establish order in a galaxy that was in dire need for it.

-Jabba's through with you. He has no time for smugglers who drop their shipments at the first sign of an Imperial cruiser.

-Even I get boarded sometimes. You think I had a choice.

The assumption that the Empire would socially and politically permit racketeering within its realm is nonsensical - unless directly sanctioned by it (ie. bounty hunting).

D) Despite the fact that Tatooine is "farthest from the bright side of the universe", holding fast to the assumption that the Empire has no influence and control of Hutt space is entirely inappropriate if one considers the fervor of the support for the rebellion against the Empire within the hearts of both Luke Skywalker and Biggs Darklighter - life long residents of Tatooine.

Why do these people insist on doing this?

Hey. I'm not playing the masochist. You are. If you don't like the story, move on to something else. Do us a favor though: before you whine, understand and appreciate the structure of the saga first. Maybe then we'll serve you some cheese.

 

He is just saying that it isn't something that is presented in the films in an obvious way, so when some fans don't understand that about Jabba, they end up thinking it's an inconsistency.

It isn't presented at all. We are all seeing the same footage and his explanation is simply inferring what is happening. Some see it as an inconsistency whilst others choose to make up a story to fill in the inconsistency. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

 

" Hey. I'm not playing the masochist. You are. If you don't like the story, move on to something else. Do us a favor though: before you whine, understand and appreciate the structure of the saga first. Maybe then we'll serve you some cheese."

And you wonder why you were banned.

 

Johnny doesn't like cheese...

 

Loco_for_Lucas

While my line "(Sandpeople) were scared off by an old guy waving his arms" was a joke- I could have said that Anakin was dressed as a Jedi-after the events of AOTC would explain the reason why they ran like hell after seing Obi-wan. I have heard that line of logic before, but it seemed to be a stretch.

And my logic still stands up, while the Sandpeople can't stand up to an enraged dark jedi (and not many people can)-normal people like Luke were still vunerable. 26 farmers died in trying to get Shimi back. Keep in mind, that scene was also to show how powerful Anakin could be when seduced by the dark side of the force. The Sand people was a way to show how poweful an evil Anakin could be.

But if somebody tells me that the Sandpeople were ruined by these apperences or lessened because of them. I'm sorry, but I have to laugh.

The only thing they did in Star Wars was jump on a bantha. Jump in front of Luke and beat him up. They begin to vandalize a land speeder.

Until an old guy starts waving his arms they run like hell.

Even as a nine year old, I didn't find them THAT threatening.

But with TPM and AOTC, we know they shoot at people (destorying one podracer if i remember) Kill 26 farmers and kidnap, tourched and killed Shimi Skywalker. So when Luke comes across them, we know he is in trouble.

Good thing an old guy came to wave his arms.

As far as Jabba is concerened- I must confess I do not see any difference between his portrayals. A head ganster may have to throw a race one day, and be present for a knee-capping the next. Han Solo had the dirty hanger, Jabba had to go there to talk to him. And he did live in a very large Place, He had a pet Rancor, a sail barge, a dungeon. Hardly a sign of someone hiding or being hole in the wall.-Jabba just liked a dark interior and was a bit of a slob. His overconfidence and emotionalism cost him his life.

Depending on what version of ANH you enjoy- Greedo was Jabbas mouthpiece and he didn't make an apperence in the first film. However, Lucas felt the need to tie in ANH and ROTJ visually...and he always wanted to set up the payoff of Han and Jabbas fued,by properly introducing him in ANH.

His appearence is really nothing more than flavor for TPM-he's no more important then the rebel leaders or the imperial commanders on the Deathstar- they were there to add color. We are told that the Hutts are gansters and they are in contol of Tatoonie. the audience-if they never saw Star Wars are asking "Hmmmm...what are the Hutts? What kind of guy gets in control?" All those questions are revealed with Jabba's appearence. "Oh, those are hutts! And he's a popular guy cause he gives the audience what they want...Races and Gambling." We can tell by the slaves and entorouge that they are indeed, powerful. Now the audience have a visual reference to who the Hutts are, and why Watto doesn't want to argue against Qui-Gon Jin.

Its a small thing...but it aslo helps heighten Hans deliema-where we find out He's in trouble with a Hutt.

 

Is my interpretation incorrect?

(Seems as though T_S has nothing better to do than to follow me around. Unless he's a sock, himself!)

 

While my line "(Sandpeople) were scared off by an old guy waving his arms" was a joke- I could have said that Anakin was dressed as a Jedi-after the events of AOTC would explain the reason why they ran like hell after seing Obi-wan. I have heard that line of logic before, but it seemed to be a stretch.

Yeah, it usually is.

And my logic still stands up, while the Sandpeople can't stand up to an enraged dark jedi (and not many people can)-normal people like Luke were still vunerable. 26 farmers died in trying to get Shimi back. Keep in mind, that scene was also to show how powerful Anakin could be when seduced by the dark side of the force. The Sand people was a way to show how poweful an evil Anakin could be.

But if somebody tells me that the Sandpeople were ruined by these apperences or lessened because of them. I'm sorry, but I have to laugh.

The only thing they did in Star Wars was jump on a bantha. Jump in front of Luke and beat him up. They begin to vandalize a land speeder.

Until an old guy starts waving his arms they run like hell.

Even as a nine year old, I didn't find them THAT threatening.

But with TPM and AOTC, we know they shoot at people (destorying one podracer if i remember) Kill 26 farmers and kidnap, tourched and killed Shimi Skywalker. So when Luke comes across them, we know he is in trouble.

Like I said, you've thrown your own point out the window. If they were never that threatening to begin with, they were wasted as they were never made into any more of a threat. All they did was jump on a few Banthas in ANH, but in the PT all they do is shoot at racers and kidnap unarmed women and kill under-armed farmers. That's not exactly "heightening" them as threats, as you said,. How is Lucas "wise" if he hasn't accomplished anything with these characters?

As far as Jabba is concerened- I must confess I do not see any difference between his portrayals. A head ganster may have to throw a race one day, and be present for a knee-capping the next. Han Solo had the dirty hanger, Jabba had to go there to talk to him.

That's a contradiction, if he's so important, why would someone as obviously lazy as Jabba bother to go and see a small-time smuggler about a shipment that was dropped? He helps run a planet, a shipment of spice wouldn't demand that much of his attention, he would send some goons out there and rough Han up. By adding that new context to Jabba, the things he does later on now seem petty and inconsistent.

And he did live in a very large Place, He had a pet Rancor, a sail barge, a dungeon. Hardly a sign of someone hiding or being hole in the wall.-Jabba just liked a dark interior and was a bit of a slob. His overconfidence and emotionalism cost him his life.

Indeed it was a large place, not something befitting to a planet's co-ruler, but someone doing well with his crime syndicate.

Depending on what version of ANH you enjoy- Greedo was Jabbas mouthpiece and he didn't make an apperence in the first film. However, Lucas felt the need to tie in ANH and ROTJ visually...and he always wanted to set up the payoff of Han and Jabbas fued,by properly introducing him in ANH.

That's what I had a problem with, that scene was unnecessary eye candy and the chance for fanboys to say "omg - Jabba's talking to Han...in the first Star Wars movie!!!!" Other than that, it's a redundant conversation. The other films were written around it so it wouldn't be necessary to show it.

What did we learn from that added scene? That even Han gets boarded some times? Or that Jabba would have every bounty hunter in the Galaxy after him? The fact Han asks for his payment upfront, needs money desperately, and is constantly on the run in Empire, illustrates his need to run from Jabba nicely without that unnecessary scene.

His appearence is really nothing more than flavor for TPM-he's no more important t

 

Hey. I'm not playing the masochist. You are. If you don't like the story, move on to something else. Do us a favor though: before you whine, understand and appreciate the structure of the saga first. Maybe then we'll serve you some cheese.

Thanks for helping me prove my point. LOL

 

I don't understand what you mean with that last post.

So I will ask again, do you consider my interpretation appropriate or not? Have I been clueless all this time?

 

You were asking me? I thought you were talking to cash. In any case, I won't go all out and say you're "wrong," I'm not that arrogant. But I'll say that you're going out of your way significantly to MAKE the whole mess make sense.

 

What makes you think I'm going out of my way?

 

I thought, "Is my interpretation incorrect?" was meant for Lukecash. Try and be more specific next time.