Phantom Menace is now a 'classic'

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by irishfan, Jul 25, 2003.

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  1. JohnWilliams00 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 29, 2002
    star 4
    If you can call TPM a classic then I guess I'll go ahead and call The Matrix a classic.

  2. Cometgreen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2002
    star 4
    You do that.

    Cometgreen
  3. First_Stage_Lensman Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 23, 2003
    star 2
    JW00 - I never said that people 'hated' Wizard of Oz - they just didn't flock to it. As fir its box office take : go back in time and explain that as a succes to the MGM executives, I'm sure they would agree!

    TPM was nominated for Academy Awards as well.

    There are other examples. 'The Dark Crystal' - expensive fantasy flop drubbed by critics and misunderstood by target audience. It is now recognized as an innovative classic. The Korda Bros. 'Thief Of Bagdad' - I have a period review that is IDENTICAL to the rank-n'file TPM review of '99 - it is the favorite film of Francis Coppola, Woody Allen and Martin Scorsese! 'Dragonslayer' bombed etc... now it stands out head and shoulders above other fantasy films of the period. Ditto for Walter Murch's 'Return To Oz'.

    Fellini was criticized for the same 'weaknesses' as Lucas on his later films starting with 'Satyricon' - "where's the plot? the likable characters? can't you go back to grainy black and white etc...?" Amarcord, City of Women - his late films are looked on as masterpieces now. That doesn't retrocatively make them linear stories engaging in the same way 'Saving Private Ryan' is - but space & time have made it possible to view them without preconcenptions. Ditto for the PT.
    * *
    As a postscript: when I saw TPM in December '99 when it was re-released, only TPM fans were there. I saw it twice and both times the theater was packed. We cheered, laughed and had a great time. I don't think any of us were faking it. We just happen to APPRECIATE the film!
  4. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Go-Mer (before): I think the complaints leveled at the prequels are just as true (if not more so) with the classic trilogy.

    JenX: Yeah? I don't. I think the prequels are vastly inferior to even the weakest film in the CT/OT (ROTJ).

    Go-Mer (before): I think it is a double standard that is influenced partially by nostalgia, and partially by people growing older and less forgiving.

    JenX: Well, I think it's prety much one standard being applied to all the SW films. I think some of the films met that standard, and some of the films didn't. But I'm also aware that, no matter how many times people explain why they don't like the prequels, some people will continue to prefer to explain away criticism by blaming "nostalgia".
    />
    enough of us out here who do like it that the people who don't won't matter.
    Go-Mer (before): If anything, the prequels are making the entire saga even more classic than it was as a single trilogy. And no amount of complaints or declarations of inferiority by the prequel's detractors will ever change that.

    JenX: Err, yeah, no amount of prequel detractors will change your opinion, but that doesn't mean that the prequels are making the entire saga even more classic.
    />
    enough of us like them that the prequels are making the classc trilogy better.

    The only difference between people who were let down by the prequels, and the people who didn't like the classic trilogy is the people who didn't like the classic trilogy were able to let it go./>/>/>/>
  5. JohnWilliams00 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 29, 2002
    star 4
    The Korda Bros. 'Thief Of Bagdad' - I have a period review that is IDENTICAL to the rank-n'file TPM review of '99 - it is the favorite film of Francis Coppola, Woody Allen and Martin Scorsese!

    Yes, but did it receive the same wildly mixed reviews as TPM? I happen to love this film too (you can't go wrong with Michael Powell's films). But the question is, does TPM essentially have what it takes to become a classic the way Thief of Bagdad did? Does it possess the same unmistakable charm, the elegance, the high production values? (I know you're going to say yes. ;)) I beg to differ, and I think the low points of TPM, for me, including the poorly conceived Jar Jar character, uneven script, poor lead actor in Lloyd, unfocused and at times lethargic plot, and overall lack of resonance will keep it from classic status. And if it does warm you inside, it's probably nostalgia. ;)

    There have obviously been many films, like you mentioned, that became classics later on. I think those films may have been ahead of their time -- they were different, controversial, and maybe just flawed. But they had enough good qualities in them that took time for people to see. The thing is, I don't think TPM like that. It's not that radical, that controversial, that misunderstood, or even deep enough to suddenly turn into a classic in five years. And things like bad acting and weak scriptwriting will always be bad acting and weak scriptwriting. There's no hidden pearl of truth to be discovered twenty years from now.
  6. jabba_the_nut Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 17, 2003
    star 2
    >Fellini was criticized for the same 'weaknesses' as Lucas on his later films starting with 'Satyricon' - "where's the plot? the likable characters?

    Well, whatever its merits, Satyricon really *doesn't* have much of a plot or particularly likable characters. I don't think it was really supposed to. TPM and AOTC obviously were, so I think those criticisms should be viewed in a different light.
  7. appleseed Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2002
    star 4
    JenX: I think you understand my point concerning the scenes in ROTJ. And I added "IMO" just so a debate concerning what scenes are the best in the saga wouldn't be brought up and pull this further off topic. I couldn't care less what people say in the Whiner's Sanctuary, because I don't even consider it a legitimate thread and it shouldn't even exist.

    Dr. E: Bashers commonly dislike ROTJ, as well as the PT. Many of them seem to consider it the point where Lucas "lost it". The fact that you actually seem to like it (or parts of it) doesn't change the fact that ROTJ hate is part of the basher mindset.
  8. JohnWilliams00 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 29, 2002
    star 4
    no, i think a majoriy of bashers liked ROTJ. Many of them do agree, however, that ROTJ is where it started to weaken, but they do not outright dismiss the films or dislike it as much as they do TPM/AOTC.

    I myself still liked ROTJ a lot. where did you get this "it's part of the basher mindset"? Are you trying to stir the beehive?
  9. appleseed Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2002
    star 4
    It's just what I've observed. Plus I've been hearing people complain about ROTJ since 1983-some of the same people who now bash the prequels. And I've seen it on here plenty as well. It's mostly the Ewoks, of course, and then there's quite a bit of whining about the toning down of Han Solo. Most bashers seem to hold Empire up as a sacred cow, and they like ANH fine but don't really seem to give it much attention. Then they whine about ROTJ a little, and the prequels a lot.

    I have no interest in "stirring up" anything-not that I'd need to anyway. Debate is never hard to find. I guess I could be generalizing a bit.
  10. JohnWilliams00 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 29, 2002
    star 4
    I don't know about everyone else, but I loved ANH and ESB almost equally (with ESB slightly higher]) and love 90% of ROTJ.

    Out of curiousity, how would you rank ESB, as I just heard you call it a sacred cow. ;)
  11. appleseed Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2002
    star 4
    I'd say I like ESB about the same as TPM, which is to say quite a bit. My fave movies in the series are AOTC and ANH. I like the other three about equally, but ROTJ I find to be a bit more touching, especially after seeing the prequels.

    I just get tired of ESB being placed on a pedestal so far above the rest of the series. I think they're all great movies, but if any one of them deserves praise over the others, then it's gotta be the original.

    I love 'em all, anyways.
  12. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    i used to dislike ROTJ more but after seeing the PT so far, ROTJ is a masterpiece by contrast. i do see ROTJ as evidence of the first steps in the downward turn of the saga, but its nowhere near the mess that is the PT.
  13. openmind Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2003
    star 4
    I loved ROTJ when it came out. Probably the best movie going experience in my life. No problem with the Ewoks either, it was just good fun and the good guys finally won.

    With the prequels Im seeing more and more things by each view and being less cynical (as I used to be) makes it all the much more enjoyable. I don't know what it is, but it really has improved the Saga, IMHO. Especially with the subtleties that is the prequels. Again IMO.
  14. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    Now I know that the classic trilogy is at best, a mediocre followup to one of my favorite trilogys of all time.

    Go-Mer, according to that statement you made in your other thread, you are officially no longer a SW fan. time for you to let it go.
  15. Cometgreen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2002
    star 4
    "Go-Mer, according to that statement you made in your other thread, you are officially no longer a SW fan."

    ? He still likes it, he simply thinks that the OT doesn't do the PT justice.

    Cometgreen
  16. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
  17. Ailowyn Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 10, 2003
    I know you guys are having fun debating this, (I hope, anyway...) but I just want to interject a thought here.

    It's my personal opinion, and that of most of the people I know in real life, that all of the Star Wars movies are great. I don't really love one more than another, and have no disturbing hatred of either Ewoks or Gungans. I mean, they're just movies in the end, right? Not a religion or something.

    Besides, anything that comes from the mind of George Lucas is, in my mind, better than most of the absolute crap coming out of Hollywood today. I mean, did anyone here see Daredevil?

    I think they're all classics, and I firmly believe that Ep.III will not dissappoint me.
  18. winter_chili Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2002
    star 5
    Good for you! :)


    anyway

    I think its interesting that AOTC comes in second of the star wars saga in polls here, but i would point out that i think it would get third behind A New Hope else where

  19. Cometgreen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2002
    star 4
    "It's my personal opinion, and that of most of the people I know in real life, that all of the Star Wars movies are great. I don't really love one more than another, and have no disturbing hatred of either Ewoks or Gungans. I mean, they're just movies in the end, right? Not a religion or something.

    Besides, anything that comes from the mind of George Lucas is, in my mind, better than most of the absolute crap coming out of Hollywood today. I mean, did anyone here see Daredevil?

    I think they're all classics, and I firmly believe that Ep.III will not dissappoint me."

    I totally agree. Everyone I've spoken to says they think the prequels are great, and that the old films are great. Nothing spectacular, nothing horrible. They're all just entertainment. They don't mind seeing it another time in the theater, especially if nothing else is out there. And there is no better feeling than when a new Star Wars is coming out. It's on everyone's minds, even those who don't go out to the movies much.

    I can't wait until early 2005, when SW comes back into the minds of the public. Good times.

    Cometgreen
  20. winter_chili Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2002
    star 5
    Seeing as it is the last star wars movie, itll be really sad at the same time

    I hope it has an ending like TTT, when i say ending i literaly mean the last like 40 seconds
  21. CeeJay Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2000
    star 4
    First_Stage_Lensman - Of course I have an opinion and if I had a penny for everytime someone mentions crap about opoinons and facts I'd be rich so step off with that line ok, everything written here is of opinion and you aint sherlock holmes for realising that FACT! GL never intended on the films being the story of Anakin Skywalker otherwise he wouldn't have called SW the adventures of Luke Skywalker in the first place, further opinon for your brain is that if these films or "Saga" as you put it were intended to be any more than one story then in the last 25 years any writer of self respect would have written them - he didn't, they're not, GL is only seeing marketable films which is why they are nothing more than add ons with no real thought put into making the most of the story. That is why characters like Dooku can suddenly pop up out of nowhere and fans all over wonder why he was never in TPM.. because it all being made up as it goes just like any bunch of marketable sequels. This isn't a saga, it has no real story, it's just being strung out for all the money it can get and there's nothing classic about it.

    Cometgreen - I know it's no longer the story of a farmboys adventures, it's gone beyond that into the mess i's in now but the point is the original film was called STAR WARS and that's all it was ever meant to be, and being a fan of that makes you a STAR WARS fan! Comprendhe? The merchandise driven stuff that comes after you can be a fan of all you want but all that makes you is a SW merchandise fan, i couldn't care less for merchandise and I couldn'tcare less for film collections either if most of them are crap. I'm not a fan of the so called "Saga" I'm a fan of STAR WARS. the only thing inthe so called "Saga" to be a fan of is TESB, and the rest are just intersting to view for their spectacle and nothing more!

    So for the last time, you don't have to like everything labled Star Wars episode blah bl;ah blah just to call yourself a SW fan, but if you think you do - then that's your perrogative and I wish you well in whatever crap gets churned out next for you to "MUST" like in order to keep your title.
  22. oLiquidRusho Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2002
    star 2
    Every single one of you can argue and wonder why so and so hates or loves TPM all you want. I could care less of that at this point. What mystifies me is how many FEMALES actually like TPM better than the very original beloved star wars!

    I've found that the female's tolerance to TPM is a lot better than the geeked out testosterone based hatred of it. I get bashed if I admit I liked the ORIGINAL FRIGGIN STAR WARS. I've been called a range of geek to dork. oh but being a fan of Episode 1? of episode 2? Its all good. No girl teases. In fact, they ask if I got the movie. The only people who diss me for liking those two movies are damn shaggy haired guys who do nothing but lecture me about dialogue and what not. What the hell is comin to the world. Maybe Lucas ain't tryin to please the kiddies after all. Maybe its the women. And if so, by anakins missing fore arm, YOU are the PIMP lucas!

    So basically the point is, our own opinions are our own opinions. Me? I'll plop in TPM in the DVD and embark on an old old journey in a galaxy far far away with a woman who'll actually tolerate it. Even if I can't stand Boss Nass. I'll just look at her during those moments.
  23. winter_chili Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2002
    star 5
  24. Cometgreen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2002
    star 4
    CeeJay-damn man, calm down. Take a deep breath. ;)

    I never questioned your "fandom", so I don't know why that reply was directed to me. Though I do think that, if you're going to be a fan, you should at least respect what has been done to the saga.

    Now then, as I said, it doesn't matter if Lucas is pulling the story out of thin air. It's still one coherent story, which I'm sure when watched in order, will seem like it belongs. It's not a group of sequels like all those horror films, Alien films, James Bond films, hell even Harry Potter. It's not like "Here we go again, another adventure!" It is all ONE story.

    EDIT: Woah, we should get back on topic...

    Cometgreen, who would buy SW merchandise if it looked like fun, not if it has the SW label on it
  25. Loco_for_Lucas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
    star 5
    Now then, as I said, it doesn't matter if Lucas is pulling the story out of thin air. It's still one coherent story, which I'm sure when watched in order, will seem like it belongs. It's not a group of sequels like all those horror films, Alien films, James Bond films, hell even Harry Potter. It's not like "Here we go again, another adventure!" It is all ONE story.


    But from what you've described, Star Wars fits the "Here we go again, another adventure" theme while a few of the others you mentioned (Harry Potter, Alien) can be seen as a series of films that become one story. Not a good one, but they can be seen as one story if applied with the same perspective you say for Star Wars.
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