Phantom Menace is now a 'classic'

Every single one of you can argue and wonder why so and so hates or loves TPM all you want. I could care less of that at this point. What mystifies me is how many FEMALES actually like TPM better than the very original beloved star wars!

I can tell you four reasons why the women like TPM

1) Shimi- a strong mother character-who is clearly giving up her son so he can achieve his dream

2)Padme-A strong leader, a young women who has the strength and the power to lead a people

3)Qui-gon- Older, wiser sexy jedi they would marry

4)Obi-Wan- Hot young Jedi that they would love to spend a night with.

 

I can tell you one reason why lots of women have found the originals sexy:

Harrison Ford.

 

"But from what you've described, Star Wars fits the "Here we go again, another adventure" theme while a few of the others you mentioned (Harry Potter, Alien) can be seen as a series of films that become one story. Not a good one, but they can be seen as one story if applied with the same perspective you say for Star Wars."

Well, if your prefer. But SW never really wraps up until ROTJ. The villians are still there, the characters are still learning, relationships are not yet complete, etc. Alien, for instance, ends with the only known alien being killed. The story pretty much seems done. James Bond always ends the same way. Harry Potter can be viewed as a saga, as it does have one consistent villian. Since I've never read the books and barely sat through the first movie, I shouldn't really comment. But from what I know, they're tales of every year Potter goes to school. That's where I got the "Here we go, another adventure."

SW leaves you hanging. TPM ends with the Phantom Menace still very much alive, an apprentice just beginning his training, etc. AOTC ends with the Republic under the control of one man, the Jedi sensing their doom, a forbidden love coming to fruition, etc. ANH ends with a small victory, but with all major players still very alive and the relationships just starting out. ESB is the only one that feels like a Hollywood sequel, at least at the start. It of course ends knowing that ROTJ will pick up where it's left off.

Eh, I dunno, I'm tired, and I think I've spent WAY too much time on this board today. You could of course apply these things to all the other sequels I've mentioned, but for the next eight hours, I won't give a damn. When I get up in the morning, however...

EDIT: "3)Qui-gon- Older, wiser sexy jedi they would marry

4)Obi-Wan- Hot young Jedi that they would love to spend a night with"

Eww.

EDIT2: "I can tell you one reason why lots of women have found the originals sexy:

Harrison Ford."

Eeewwwwwwwwww.

Cometgreen

 

I never questioned your "fandom", so I don't know why that reply was directed to me. Though I do think that, if you're going to be a fan, you should at least respect what has been done to the saga.

i think if you are going to be a fan, you should speak out when you see something you love being turned into garbage. otherwise you are just another fanatic, accepting anything with the SW stamp.

Go-Mer, you are really pushing your luck here again, baiting, bating, baiting. you know very well what other thread. the one you started in the CT forum entitled " Is the CT dragging down the overall quality of the saga?" the one in which you have made several comments bashing the OT and suggesting it is of a lesser quality than the PT. by your own reasoning and that of others here, you are no longer a Star Wars fan, since you feel some of the Star Wars films are mediocre.

 

Too bad some find the Prequels less to their liking. I love them!!!! Oh and my kids love them as well Nothing more pleasing to the heart than that.

 

TadjiStation: "To think otherwise is to regard yourself as a drone - one that's content with anything related to a particular franchise, no matter how dull or poorly executed."

You have got it the wrong way round. You are basically saying you should be content to maintain a fan. Wrong, it is what you like that affects your status of what you are a fan of.

I think it's really basic reasoning. Let's talk about the SW saga. If you liked one instalment and disliked the rest, would you honestly still believe you are a fan of the saga. Of course not. It's really all down to personal opinion anyway.

DrEvazan: "i would probably have to call you PT fans, not Star Wars fans, since you seem to need to put down the OT at every turn."

Well I know you can't include me in that with my own views.

Draculas_guest: "Some of the people who dont like the PT have been enjoying Star Wars since '77."

That's the whole point. If you say I loved Episode IV and V. Then you could say you were a fan of those films or - seeing as it is 2 out of 3 - a fan of the original trilogy.

Draculas_guest: "I mean how does anyone decide who is a fan and who isnt?"

Don't get up tight about this debate. I am not claiming anything. However, you can see where some people are coming from. Firstly, "fan" has it's own defintions. Does it not go against the definitions of "fan" if you dislike most of what you are supposed to be a fan of.


Draculas_guest: "I'm a fan of Radiohead, yet I only own 'The Bends' and 'OK Computer'. I like some of the stuff on 'Kid A' and 'Amnesiac' but I dont own those albums. The thing is I've never heard anyone tell me I'm not a "proper" Radiohead fan for not owning all of their material."

No, however if you start to dislike most of their material then you begin to say whether you are a Radiohead 'fan' or not. You could be a fan of The Bends and OK Computer but perhaps not the band. See where I'm coming from.

CeeJay: "They may call the SW films a saga but that in itself is a false title. Never throughly planned and executed as a planned story from start to finish as one would expect of a volume of planned work depicting one grand tale"

It is still a saga, buddy. Sagas do not have to have a preplanned story for a start. As long as it makes one complete and larger story then it fits the definitions of a saga

CJ: "So unlike those who feel to be a SW fan means to love all blindly that is SW"

I agree there are some, but not me pal.

CJ: "them as prereqisitte to holding onto my treasured title of "SW FAN"."

Who dislikes practically everything Star Wars except 2 films.

CJ: "and they no longer even fall into the category of Trilogy either, mrely a bunch of sequels."

and then agrees with Cometgreen about the saga and then again when he says "CeeJay-damn man, calm down. Take a deep breath."

 

Ceejay: a pointless polemic isn't a response.

* *

The thing is, I LIKE the PT for its 'faults'. I like the unpolished acting - in this context. I like the way it plays against the production values. I like the unpolished writing - it brings a personal element to the films. We're not talking about some awful hack who can't point a camera. GL's merits as a filmmaker are obvious (editing, composition, color, design, technical innovations etc). Get over your 'Screenwriting 101' hangups and 'Writer's Journey' cliches and appreciate the films for their uniqueness.

 

I, for one, do not believe you need to be a fan of all parts of something to be a fan in general.

My 10th favorite movie of all time is THE EXORCIST.
One of my favorite books of all time is the book that said film is based on.
I've been known to quote the film from time to time. I showed it in the basement of my dorm for Halloween. etc. etc.

Here's where things get tricky.

I have never seen EXORCIST III. Maybe I'll get around to it. I heard it sucked, but some things about it seem kind of interesting.
I absolutely refuse to see EXORCIST II. I've heard too many bad things about it, and maybe two good things.
I don't keep up with the news about the Exorcist prequel, but I'll probably see it when it comes out.

But here's the fun part.

I don't go to Exorcist boards and make a big point on stating my opinion on if the sequels are watch-worthy.
If I do one day see Exorcist III and dislike it, even hate it, I will not make a big show of announcing my opinion on it.
There are probably people out there who are trying to have a nice discussion on the symbolism or hidden meanings or what have you in the Exorcist sequels, and they don't need me coming in and saying "It sucked. Here's why. kthxbye"

I used to post on a Ghostbusters message board. I'm not a huge fan of the old cartoon series. So I just ignored that forum. End of story.

I don't like some of the EU. But I don't go into Lit and trash every book I disliked.

I believe you can call yourself a SW fan even if you only like the OT, or if you're in "The Two Club" (ANH/ESB only), or if you only like the EU.
If you only like the Holiday Special, you have problems.
But why go rain on the parades of those who did like what you didn't?

To quote the great DamonD... "I love all 5 Star Wars films. Live with it."



Rick McCallum loves you!

 

The trouble with that argument, Adam, is that Exorcist fandom is nothing like Star Wars fandom. While I'm sure that there are a few Exorcist boards out there on the internet, it's probably nothing compared to the amount of Star Wars message boards out there, so the comparison doesn't really stand. I think the problem is that for some peculiar reason, Star Wars fans are very intolerate of differing opinions within fandom. Quite why, I don't know, but in my experience, that seems to be the case.

 

>>>ROJ was an instant classic. Ewoks and the giant slug Jabba became house-hold names before the year was up and have remained so ever since.

...while Jar Jar Binks went unnoticed, and has been forgotten by everyone.

Wait a minute...


CeeJay

>>>You want to see a real saga - Lord of the Rings, Babylon 5, Dune, those are sagas.

I presume you know that Tolkien himself has said that the LOTR saga was "never throughly planned and executed as a planned story from start to finish as one would expect of a volume of planned work depicting one grand tale"?


Dracula's Guest,

>>>I'm a fan of Radiohead, yet I only own 'The Bends' and 'OK Computer'. I like some of the stuff on 'Kid A' and 'Amnesiac' but I dont own those albums. The thing is I've never heard anyone tell me I'm not a "proper" Radiohead fan for not owning all of their material.

Well, obviously you're not a true Radiohead fan.

When you see them live, and see material from the last three albums alongside the older material, you'll see that they are meant to form a seamless whole, rather than to be judged as two seperate bodies of work.

It's probably just because you were that bit older when Kid A came out, and you weren't hearing it through the idealistic ears of a teenager anymore. As well as the nostalgia for your teenage years that mean you put The Bends and OK Computer on a pedestal, meaning that you judge the later albums too harshly.

Unless, of course, you're one of the luddites who thinks that the cutting edge electronic sounds don't sound as real as guitars...



#Runs off to find a Stone Roses fan to tell them why they didn't like Second Coming...#

 

I think the Exorcist 'saga' is kind of a different case. The first one was pretty self-contained and the other two were tacked-on and made for profit based on the success of the original. I don't even think Exorcist II is 'canon' per se, and it's one of the most hated movies of all time besides. Just liking the Exorcist I is probably enough to qualify anyone as an Exorcist fan. Otherwise there wouldn't *be* any Exorcist fans! Same goes for the Halloween series for example; I mean, who even really cares about the sequels? They're EU at best.

Oh, but I kinda like Exorcist II, flawed movie though it is, although if you really like Exorcist I there's almost no chance of enjoying it. (also: a prequel? sigh...) Exorcist III at least has Blatty's involvement- maybe you should read the book first and see if you like it.

As for Star Wars... well, it really is more of a saga than 'one real movie followed by meaningless sequels', but then again if you even care enough about the SW phenomenon to rip the PT apart, well, that's gotta say something! People that just don't care about SW one way or the other aren't going to post here.

 

"#Runs off to find a Stone Roses fan to tell them why they didn't like Second Coming...#"

*Finds a Stone Roses fan* - So whats wrong with Second Coming?

 

Is it true that the Halloween sequels pay absolutely no attention to the previous films? The summary I heard was,

Halloween- Nearly everybody dies.
Part 2- Everyone else dies.
Part 3- Absolutely nothing to do with 1 or 2, different characters, different locations, different plot line.
Part 4- Characters who died in 1&2 come back with no explanation, and then get killed again.

Friday XIII are a brilliant set of films for the "make it up as you go along" mindset. "Part 5- the final chapter" must surely be the worst thought out title ever, and the way it is revealed in Part 9 that Jason can only be truly killed by some special daggers (never before mentioned) wielded by a member of his family (again, never even referred to in previous films) was a stroke of genius.

And watching him run around with a pillowcase on his head in Part 2 (before they had the idea of giving him the hockey mask) is always good for a laugh...


EDIT:
Darth MacDaddy,

There's nothing wrong with the Second Coming- it's a fantastic album!

I do think it makes an interesting comparison to TPM, in the sense that they both had a huge fanbase with expectations and preconceptions of what it was going to sound like, exacerbated by a long wait for the finished product, which led to it getting a huge amount of (unjust in both cases, IMHO) criticism when it was released.

Except some of the Stone Roses fans are actually more obsessive than Star Wars fans (as anyone who has read "One Love Story" will be able to testify...)

 

>Is it true that the Halloween sequels pay absolutely no attention to the previous films?

They're a bit of a blur in my mind, but it goes something like this:

1- everyone dies.
2- a bunch of new characters die, Donald Pleasance's character and Michael Myers also 'die'. This is usually regarded as the 'best' of the sequels, but it screws up the closure of the original and didn't need to happen IMO. Plus it has a more ridiculous 'they're brother and sister' than ROTJ
3- completely unrelated movie. A respectable b-movie, but currently rated as one of the bottom 100 movies on IMDB. Should've been released under another title, it'd be better regarded.
4- so it turns out that Pleasance and Myers didn't die after all, in spite of the fact that they clearly did. I'm with Kathy Bates' character in Misery on this one- if they died, they died, leave it alone. Then again, they did it in Bride of Frankenstein, which is a classic...
5- and so it goes on
6- some 'explanations' of the Michael Myers character involving Celtic mythology; makes little sense and garbles continuity
7- H20 (stupid title). ignores all sequels except part 2, Myers 'dies' again.
8- Michael Myers is back, or someone in his mask is, or that wasn't really him that got killed at the end of 7, or whatever. I haven't seen it, am not in a rush to.

>"Part 5- the final chapter"

Not to go all horror geek on you or anything, but that was 4. 5 was the one without Jason- they'd killed him off already, but... you know, MONEY, so they had to make another one somehow. The real stroke of genius was 6, where they just decided 'uh, well, he's dead, but let's just bring him back to life with a bolt of lightning. That'll make loads of sense, especially since there have been absolutely no supernatural elements in the series so far outside of dream sequences".

But they can be fun movies to watch. I like the pillowcase!

 

I stand corrected- Part 5 was A New Hope... er, New Beginning, wasn't it- the "copycat killer" one?

A classic series, in my book- especially after Part 6, when they apparently decided that "it is that way because it just is, OK?" into a valid explanation for a plot point...

 

Oh look who came out of the wood work!

All the bashers, what little number they are

Anyway to get away from the posters and on to the actual thread.

To me all the Star Wars films are classics. They have a timeless quality that makes them a cut above most if not all the hollywood trash that has been out.*

TPM itself has the same qualities that the OT had; the quotable dialogue, relatable characters, the familiarity of the planets and as I said the timelessness of it all.
And I'm happy to admit that after 4 years, nostalgia of the film is part of my decision on this. And I'm quite comfortable with that.

* = Well obviously not all of the hollywood stuff is trash. The Terminator duology (I haven't seen T3 yet) is a classic series, as is Jurassic Park. And many of Tom Hanks films as well IMHO.

 

Scott3eyez:

Agreed Second Coming was a truely fantastic album. Just a quick point though, I remember queing up in Manchester on the day of release to purchase it on tape -, cause I'm cheap, the que was miles long with the diehard fans who had had to wait 5 years for what was the most anticipated album of its time. When I got the album home I had to listen to 4 and a half minutes of water running and banging, then the song kicked in - must say I was pretty weary of, as were my mates who were also diehard Stone Roses fans, we were also very weary of all the songs because it wasn't the Stone Roses as we knew it. However nowdays, Second Coming is widely regarded as one of the most underated and best albums of all time, as songs such as Love Spread and Ten Story Love are considered classics in the Rock and Indie scene, and can be cansidered a contributing factor to the interest in Britpop during the 1990's with Oasis etc.

Ok, I sound like I'm waffling, but the moral of this story is that what was received with extreme caution in 1994 with the release of "Second Coming" after "The Stone Roses" in 1989, is now almost universally accepted as a classic by the fans. It may have taken nearly 10 years, but peoples opinions change over time. Relate this to TPM - mean anything?

Oh, and CeeJay, the word "fan" is short for "fanatic" - for someone who only likes 2 of the 5 Star Wars films and someone who doesn't appear to approve of anything with the Star Wars name on it except ANH and ESB you are hardly a fanatic - and that is not opinion it is fact.

 

Scott3Eyes: "#Runs off to find a Stone Roses fan to tell them why they didn't like Second Coming...#"

You have found another Stone Roses fan!

Just a point. Most Stone Roses fans absolutely love Second Coming. Definetely not loved as much as their revolutionary, awe-inspiring, groundbreaking, self-titled debut album, but there are some fantastic songs on it. Second Coming made #83 in Q's 100 greatest albums ever list. Then again their first album was number #4.

Darth_MacDaddy: "When I got the album home I had to listen to 4 and a half minutes of water running and banging, then the song kicked in"

Breaking into Heaven - What a song! One of my local pubs (bars) used to have Second Coming on the juke-box and I used to put that song on several times a night. Why? Because it was so funny seeing the look on the customer's faces when they are trying to work out why they can hear waterfalls and bird noises!

 

O.K., I'm going to put this in nice, plain English. See if you can spot the flawed logic:

"I'm a big Star Wars fan, but I only really like one or two of the movies. All the rest of them suck. Oh, and I spend the majority of my time talking about the films I hate as opposed to the ones I actually like."

So you'll have to forgive us if we go ?.

 

What you're talking about is fanaticism, Durwood. Liking one STAR WARS movie makes you a fan, what you talk about is blind devotion.

 

Oh, and CeeJay, the word "fan" is short for "fanatic" - for someone who only likes 2 of the 5 Star Wars films and someone who doesn't appear to approve of anything with the Star Wars name on it except ANH and ESB you are hardly a fanatic - and that is not opinion it is fact.

why would anyone want to be a fanatic? sounds pretty creepy to me. i prefer having a mind of my own, thank you very much.

I spend the majority of my time talking about the films I hate as opposed to the ones I actually like.

that is where your logic fails... we are talking about films we like, and why we are disappointed with their continuation, and how they new films dont live up to the films we like.

 

Liking one STAR WARS movie makes you a fan, what you talk about is blind devotion.

Oh now thats rather insulting. The fact that I love all the films because they all entertain me and are a good story means I'm a blind devotee?
Don't f'in make me laugh

At least I haven't spent years whinging about how TPM is and TPM is that. At least I can move on and just enjoy the Star Wars saga for what it is. Instead of being bitter and jaded with my opinion.

 

blind devotion?

 

Oh now thats rather insulting. The fact that I love all the films because they all entertain me and are a good story means I'm a blind devotee?
Don't f'in make me laugh

Durwood is talking about fanaticism, to where you have to like them all to be a "fan;" what I'm suggesting is if you like at least one, you're a fan. And just as how Durwood can have his opinion that questions our fandom, I think I am entitled to mine, which is based on my view of how the films are coming out so far.

At least I haven't spent years whinging about how TPM is and TPM is that. At least I can move on and just enjoy the Star Wars saga for what it is. Instead of being bitter and jaded with my opinion.

"At least?" What's with all the moralizing here? "At least?" Because we don't sit here and give the same praises of these films? I can take the high road too, "At least in the end, I can know that I have my own opinion and that I wasn't giving twenty year old praise to a series of movies." See, I can do that too, yet I don't relish in it.

 

ooops!